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 Mannahnin wrote:
If it continues, or returns, to participate in the battle any further, then you are violating the Sweeping Advance rules.

This is 100% correct.

How people can not see this baffles me.

You guys are giving Necron players an even worse name... we're gonna need some PR help soon enough

As the others have said - Sweeping Advance rather explicitly states that they cannot participate in the battle any longer. Sure, they die and the RP roll truly isn't a "save" of any sort - the unit definitely dies but is allowed to return. Except, it isn't - RP rolls get discarded when they initially fall back and then they get swept.

The enemy is driving you before them, listening to the lamentations of your women. You get no other chance. The robots slowly turn around and start a mechanical retreat only to get their bodies decimated by the onrushing Space Wolves. The way I see it - even if the Overlord came back he would just get beat down in an instant during the advance.

Either way, as a Necron player I would never try this at a local table. It seems like such a gakky argument - if you have to delve this deep into wordplay to get around the whole "unit does not take part in a battle" it's either going to be a roll off or you can take the win and I'll play a fun match versus somebody with a sense of fun and humor.

 yakface wrote:
There is no logical way you can claim that EL does not rescue the unit. Without EL, the unit would take no further part in the battle. With EL, the unit can take further part in the battle and therefore is absolutely breaking the sweeping advance rules.

Wait, so I am illogical because I don't consider RP as saving someone?

So I will try to break it down in a completely logical way. I am also getting rid of all the extraneous garbage to the argument that is flowing around in this thread (as I hope more people will do so we can just focus on the actual issue at hand). Once my point is hashed out for a simple example, the logic can then be applied in every situation regarding the EL rule.

"Simple", "the logic", "completely logical way"...
Why don't we get rid of the extraneous garbage and just start calling people stupid for not agreeing with you?

We both perfectly know the rule.
You just think that RP/EL is considered as a save because the model is alive at the end of the phase.
I believe it is not a save because the model is a casualty, even if he comes back at the end of a phase.

This seems to have blown up pretty quick.

I'm almost hesitant to post in this thread, because everyone seems to be getting pretty nasty about it, but I also think the Necron players are getting a raw deal here.

It seems pretty clear to me that Ever-Living is intended to still allow you to get back up if your unit gets swept. I don't play with Necrons, and even though I play against some pretty smug Necron players down at my local haunt, I don't think I would ever try and say that getting swept denied them their Ever-Living rule. (No matter how much I might want to! )

Personally, I would REALLY like to see some clarification from GW on this in the next round of FAQ updates. I'll happily send in a request for it and if other people want to join in as well, it can't hurt.

Kangodo wrote:

 yakface wrote:
There is no logical way you can claim that EL does not rescue the unit. Without EL, the unit would take no further part in the battle. With EL, the unit can take further part in the battle and therefore is absolutely breaking the sweeping advance rules.

Wait, so I am illogical because I don't consider RP as saving someone?

So I will try to break it down in a completely logical way. I am also getting rid of all the extraneous garbage to the argument that is flowing around in this thread (as I hope more people will do so we can just focus on the actual issue at hand). Once my point is hashed out for a simple example, the logic can then be applied in every situation regarding the EL rule.

"Simple", "the logic", "completely logical way"...
Why don't we get rid of the extraneous garbage and just start calling people stupid for not agreeing with you?

We both perfectly know the rule.
You just think that RP/EL is considered as a save because the model is alive at the end of the phase.
I believe it is not a save because the model is a casualty, even if he comes back at the end of a phase.

What? I don't think EL/RP is a save. Of course it isn't.

That sentence has nothing to do with saves. It has everything to do with being saved (two completely different things).

A saving throw is certainly something that can save a unit from being destroyed, but not everything that can save a unit from being destroyed is a save.


So very simple question:

If a Necron Overlord unit is swept by the enemy, and then later revived via EL, is or isn't the battle finished for that Necron Overlord unit? I presume we can agree that in that particular situation the battle is not over for that Necron Overlord unit, correct?

And if we agree on that, then precisely what was it that saved that Necron Overlord unit from being destroyed by the sweeping advance and taking no further part in the battle? Again, I hope we can agree that it is the Ever-Living special rule, which has allowed the Necron Overlord unit to take further part in the battle, because if he didn't have that rule, he obviously could not have been saved by it, and would most certainly not be taking any further part in the battle, correct?

Therefore, Ever-Living, which is a special rule, is responsible for saving that Necron Overlord unit from being destroyed by the sweeping advance and taking no further part in the battle. And as the Sweeping Advance rules specifically deny the use of special rules from saving a unit from being destroyed by a sweeping advance, the use of Ever-Living in such a situation cannot be allowed.

"Of course it isn't."
If it would be so clear, there wouldn't be a discussion.

And I am not talking about saving throws.
In my vocabulary a save is something that PREVENTS someone from dying.
The Necron died, so he was not saved by anything.
He will get back up later, but nothing stopped him from dying and thus he wasn't saved.

"because if he didn't have that rule, he obviously could not have been saved by it"
Wrong. I do not consider EL as 'saving a model' because you allow the model to die.

But we'd better stop discussing this if all we do is write long posts that come down to "I think it counts as saving the unit", don't you agree?

Kangodo wrote:
"Of course it isn't."
If it would be so clear, there wouldn't be a discussion.

And I am not talking about saving throws.
In my vocabulary a save is something that PREVENTS someone from dying.
The Necron died, so he was not saved by anything.
He will get back up later, but nothing stopped him from dying and thus he wasn't saved.

"because if he didn't have that rule, he obviously could not have been saved by it"
Wrong. I do not consider EL as 'saving a model' because you allow the model to die.

But we'd better stop discussing this if all we do is write long posts that come down to "I think it counts as saving the unit", don't you agree?

Except that you keep ignoring the rest of the sentence in the sweeping advance rule where it explains what it means for a special rule to 'rescue' the unit: for [the unit] the battle is over.

As EL is a special rule that prevents the battle from being over for that unit. It cannot logically be utilized.

Can you give me the page where it explains the meaning of "the battle is over"?
Because that is no real ruling, could just as well mean that the close combat is over.

Nothing can save a unit from a SA.
EL does not save it, because it still dies.
That can only mean that logically it CAN be utilized.

Discussion over?
Just putting the word 'logical' in every sentence doesn't mean you are automatically right or even that it IS logically.

yakface wrote:

tgf wrote:

or does the "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them tbe battle is over." clause kick in counting RP as other special rule?

Yes, both reanimation protocols & ever lying are special rules and since the sweeping advance rules clearly state that no special rules can be used to save the models.

Therefore, the proper way to play this IMO, is that if the Necron character actually gets swept, then it does not get to place an ever living token, as doing so would violate the sweeping advance rules.

However, if the character was simply killed during the combat and an EL token placed, then even if his former unit then gets swept, the model can attempt to get back up.

Mannahnin wrote:On the original question:
If the unit falls back, all RP counters are picked up. EL counters are not picked up.

 yakface wrote:

tgf wrote:

or does the "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them tbe battle is over." clause kick in counting RP as other special rule?

Yes, both reanimation protocols & ever lying are special rules and since the sweeping advance rules clearly state that no special rules can be used to save the models.

Therefore, the proper way to play this IMO, is that if the Necron character actually gets swept, then it does not get to place an ever living token, as doing so would violate the sweeping advance rules.

However, if the character was simply killed during the combat and an EL token placed, then even if his former unit then gets swept, the model can attempt to get back up.

Agreed.

As I asked, are you both changing your minds so that no EL can happen if the unit was sweeping advanced?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason I ask is that if you allow EL rolls for models that previously died in CC then the unit was still "saved" by a special rule.

Except Yak IS right, here.

Unit A is destroyed
Unit A returns to play
EL saved the unit from remaining destroyed.

The unit was saved. Or are you arguing that a hospital, performing heart massage to save a person from clinical death, have NOT saved that person? As common language would disagree with you, rather heavily.

"Battle" is clearly NOT the close combat. To argue that is asinine,a s you must know that is not the meaning of "battle" in this context. Given they also use Battle to mean the whole game.

What about WBB, which operated the following TURN and was still considered a special rule that saves the unit? The rule for SA has not altered since 4th edition, apart from removing WBB as an EXAMPLE.

Desptie best efforts by some, this remains one of the clearest rules in 40k. Your rule doesnt mention SA? THen you are dead and gone, and cannot come back.

Kangodo wrote:
Can you give me the page where it explains the meaning of "the battle is over"?
Because that is no real ruling, could just as well mean that the close combat is over.

Nothing can save a unit from a SA.
EL does not save it, because it still dies.
That can only mean that logically it CAN be utilized.

Discussion over?
Just putting the word 'logical' in every sentence doesn't mean you are automatically right or even that it IS logically.

Page 118 describes "Fighting a Battle" so the term is defined in the BRB as the entire process of deciding army lists, objectives, sides. Warlord traits, and the actual game.

So if the battle is over, they're done until your next battle.

And stop focusing on the word "save". It has multiple meanings - the word "rescue" helps you understand that the bad thing ha already happened and you are no permitted to undo the bad thing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except Yak IS right, here.
Unit A is destroyed
Unit A returns to play
EL saved the unit from remaining destroyed.

SA stops everything that would prevent unit A from being destroyed.
Unit A is destroyed.
Unit A comes back due to EL because EL is not a rescue, it doesn't prevent anything from happening.

Nothing in that sequence breaks the SA-rule.

The unit was saved. Or are you arguing that a hospital, performing heart massage to save a person from clinical death, have NOT saved that person? As common language would disagree with you, rather heavily.

Are you arguing that someone who died in a fire and got reanimated in the hospital was 'rescued'?

The person WAS saved. Again, very basic use of language there. They WERE dead, they are NOW alive, so they WERE saved [by the hospital]
The unit WAS destroyed, the unit is NOW alive, so they WERE saved [by their special rule]

"For them the battle is OVER"

Explain how their battle isnt over, and your permission to do so. Page and paragraph will suffice.

RESCUED, read the damn rulebook.
When something died, it is not rescued.

FOR THEM THE BATTLE IS OVER

Read the damn rulebook.

Is their battle [which we are 100% certain of the meaning of, despite your assertions to the contrary you have since ignored] over? If the answer is "No", page and paragraph to the SPECIFIC rule, specifically mentioning SA, that lets you ignore SA

Page and paragraph, now, or accept your error and move on,

EL says the battle is NOT over :')
And as it does not violate the "cannot rescue them"-rule, seeing as reanimation is not rescuing, they will just get back up in my opinion.

Kangodo wrote:
EL says the battle is NOT over :')

Without specific allowance this cannot be true. You've refused to cite specific allowance up until now - perhaps you'd like to this time?

And as it does not violate the "cannot rescue them"-rule, seeing as reanimation is not rescuing, they will just get back up in my opinion.

No, really, it is rescuing them. People are rescued from clinical death all the time.

"...the falling back unit is caught by the Sweeping Advance and destroyed....Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." P. 27

This rule tells us that if a unit is caught by a SA that unit is destroyed. It also tells us that no save or other special rule can rescue the unit (From being destroyed) at this stage.

EL has to rescue the unit from being destroyed as it makes the unit no longer destroyed (albeit at the end of the phase or whenever it takes place), as units that are destroyed can not take part in the game.

Does EL specify that it can save a unit from SA? if not then it is not "Unless otherwise specified"

This ^^ IMO...

Last laugh "... all models in base contact with him are also removed from play as casualties, locked in a temporal prison with nothing but lukas' last howls of laughter to keep them company for eternity".

So based on the above, if RP cannot be rolled because "for them the battle is over" then surely RP cannot be rolled after Last Laugh because the models are held in a temporal prison for eternity. Which of course is wrong...

copper.talos wrote:
Last laugh "... all models in base contact with him are also removed from play as casualties, locked in a temporal prison with nothing but lukas' last howls of laughter to keep them company for eternity".

So based on the above, if RP cannot be rolled because "for them the battle is over" then surely RP cannot be rolled after Last Laugh because the models are held in a temporal prison for eternity. Which of course is wrong...

It's almost like one is fluff and the other isn't.
Hint: battle is defined in the BRB.

I have noticed that no one has mentioned this FAQ question yet.

I believe this qualifies as "otherwise specified"
What say you?

Necron FAQ v1.4 wrote:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached
character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

40k-noob wrote:
I have noticed that no one has mentioned this FAQ question yet.

I believe this qualifies as "otherwise specified"
What say you?

BRB FAQ v1.4 wrote:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached
character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I don't see anything about Sweeping Advance in there, do you?
How can it be "otherwise specified" if it doesn't specify anything?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I have noticed that no one has mentioned this FAQ question yet.

I believe this qualifies as "otherwise specified"
What say you?

BRB FAQ v1.4 wrote:
Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached
character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

I don't see anything about Sweeping Advance in there, do you?
How can it be "otherwise specified" if it doesn't specify anything?

Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

Edit: Oops, the FAQ is from the Necron FAQ not the BRB FAQ.

40k-noob wrote:
Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

I don't see that as specific to Sweeping Advance. It also happens when they get shot a lot, killed through normal swings in assault, have horrible rolls in Dangerous Terrain...

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

I don't see that as specific to Sweeping Advance. It also happens when they get shot a lot, killed through normal swings in assault, have horrible rolls in Dangerous Terrain...

Since it doesn't specify how the unit is "wiped out" it is therefor all encompassing of any means by which a unit can be "wiped out" i.e. Shooting attack, Close Combat attacks, sweep advances, explosions, dangerous terrain tests failures, Perils(if Necron could actually have Psykers) and so on.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

I don't see that as specific to Sweeping Advance. It also happens when they get shot a lot, killed through normal swings in assault, have horrible rolls in Dangerous Terrain...

Since it doesn't specify how the unit is "wiped out" it is therefor all encompassing of any means by which a unit can be "wiped out" i.e. Shooting attack, Close Combat attacks, sweep advances, explosions, dangerous terrain tests failures, Perils(if Necron could actually have Psykers) and so on.

So not specific then?
What does Sweeping Advance require - something to be otherwise specified or something to be lumped in with every other rule?

All encompassing is not "Unless otherwise specified"

It does not specify that it works against SA, therefore it does not.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

I don't see that as specific to Sweeping Advance. It also happens when they get shot a lot, killed through normal swings in assault, have horrible rolls in Dangerous Terrain...

Since it doesn't specify how the unit is "wiped out" it is therefor all encompassing of any means by which a unit can be "wiped out" i.e. Shooting attack, Close Combat attacks, sweep advances, explosions, dangerous terrain tests failures, Perils(if Necron could actually have Psykers) and so on.

So not specific then?
What does Sweeping Advance require - something to be otherwise specified or something to be lumped in with every other rule?

Well you have a Codex Rule that start with "...if a model is removed as a casualty...." and you have BRB rule that says "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties."
Then add to that a FAQ that says a unit that is "wiped out" can still make "Ever Living" rolls.

Seems pretty clear what should win out.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Probably because the unit is "wiped out" in a Sweep Advance.
Do you disagree that a unit that has been swept, has been "wiped out?"

I don't see that as specific to Sweeping Advance. It also happens when they get shot a lot, killed through normal swings in assault, have horrible rolls in Dangerous Terrain...

Since it doesn't specify how the unit is "wiped out" it is therefor all encompassing of any means by which a unit can be "wiped out" i.e. Shooting attack, Close Combat attacks, sweep advances, explosions, dangerous terrain tests failures, Perils(if Necron could actually have Psykers) and so on.

So not specific then?
What does Sweeping Advance require - something to be otherwise specified or something to be lumped in with every other rule?

Well you have a Codex Rule that start with "...if a model is removed as a casualty...." and you have BRB rule that says "The destroyed unit is immediately removed as casualties."
Then add to that a FAQ that says a unit that is "wiped out" can still make "Ever Living" rolls.

Seems pretty clear what should win out.

I see you failed to note the "unless otherwise specified" requirement.
ATSKNF meets that requirement. Does Ever Living?