Let's play who's your primarch! Blood Raven edition

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**chapgrimaldus**

Kanluwen wrote:
chapgrimaldus wrote:
I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found

They're not a Founding Legion.

They have no "Primarch" of their own.

Regardless of the founding whether 1st or 2nd has a primarch which their geenseed is derived from. That said maybe I should be even more clear on what I mean. They may have came from either Legion II or Legion XI neither of their primarchs were ever rediscovered.

**Galdos**

Kanluwen wrote:
chapgrimaldus wrote:
I am starting to lean towards an undiscovered primarch, thinking about it, no one just plum forgets who their "daddy" is, so for them to not know it would have to be either a cover up by the BR or their primarch was never found

They're not a Founding Legion.

They have no "Primarch" of their own.

Just because they arnt a founding Legion doesnt mean they have a Primarch. A Primarch is simply who fathered the legion geneseed wise. ie. Nova Marines' Primarch is Guilliman

**somecallmeJack**

Arcsquad12 wrote:
Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.

They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.

Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".

True, but a lot of things in 40k that were named by or after people in M31 that subsequently turned traitor didn't get their names changed afterwards. In the inquisitor books most of the action takes place in a subsector that was named after the word bearer captain who helped conquer it during the great crusade.

**chapgrimaldus**

The Lost Primarchs of the First Founding Space Marine Legions are the two Primarchs of the II and XI Legions who, for unknown reasons, were deliberately expunged from all known Imperial records and archives. Referred to as "the forgotten and the purged" it is known only that the missing Primarchs and their Legions are listed as having been "deleted from Imperial records." This formal censure and erasure from official records is known as an Edict of Obliteration,

This could be why they have no knowledge of their gene-daddy, if it turns out they are from either of those legions. Although GW''s official position on the II and XI Legions are so players have the capability of creating their own chapters and/or chaos warbands

**Seaward**

Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

**Beaviz81**

Also the Space Wolves hates them.

**Omegus**

Seaward wrote:
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

You forgot a few Primarchs.

**Seaward**

Omegus wrote:
You forgot a few Primarchs.

Only traitors, and the Imperium doesn't forge chapters from traitor geneseed.

**Void__Dragon**

Isn't that sort of what they did with the Grey Knights?

**Pilau Rice**

Seaward wrote:
Omegus wrote:
You forgot a few Primarchs.

Only traitors, and the Imperium doesn't forge chapters from traitor geneseed.

You would hope so wouldn't you

It could be Magnus, but I doubt it. Imagine the ramifications it would have if it was Magnus and somehow the Blood Ravens or the other Astartes Chapters found out, could the Imperium afford the risk of something like that happening.

So Chapters turn traitor and get declared traitoris, what happens if the Blood Ravens were tolerated by the High Lords? I could imagine that certain Chapters would not like the idea that a Chapter with Traitor geneseed is allowed to swan about in the Emperors name.

**Beaviz81**

Ehm from what I have heard they were the founders but their geneseed was not used. I found the tale odd, but since I have little interest in the Grey Knights I haven't investigated too much. The geneseed used came directly from big daddy.

**Pilau Rice**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Isn't that sort of what they did with the Grey Knights?

According to the Grey Knights codex their Geneseed was new and produced specifically for the founding of the Grey Knights, so that there would be no hint of corruption or anything, it would be brand spanking new and purer than pure. James Swallow said that Garro is not a Grey Knight also.

Garro and his kin might be the most loyal of the loyalists, and their own geneseed free from taint, but as many were drawn from the Gene stock of Traitor legions, it is tainted and sullied by this alone. You couldn't risk it in my opinion, who's to say that the tenth Legionary on from Garro is as resolute a character.

**Jimsolo**

Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Most people say Thousand Sons gone loyal, others say merely descended from them, and despite the hints, they may still be wrong. The AdMech also say "Knowledge is power, guard it well.", that's a pretty big hint when compared to some things people are pulling out as 'proof their Primarch is Magnus', but that doesn't mean they have the gene-seed of Kelbor-Hal does it?
People used to say that they were descended from either Blood Angels or Raven Guard, and 10 years ago, people were adamant that it was either Sanguinius or Corax, they would argue for hours over these two.
Then again there's a rumour that Dorn is the Primarch.

My point is that there's lots of theories out there, and people will pick and choose which they believe, often ignoring other contradictory evidence, which is just as valid and substantial, purely because it doesn't fit in with their theory.
This is how it goes with most super duper 40k mystery dramas, everyone has their own suspect and they will not see any other argument.

For the record, I like to think they're created from stabilised Thousand Sons gene-seed, same as I believe that the Minotaurs are made from World Eater gene-seed, but these are purely my opinions, and I respect and understand that other people have their own theories with equally valid points dropped by GW to support their opinions.

I'd never heard that about the Minotaurs. It makes a crap ton of sense though. (It also makes the pill easier to swallow if there's two special Chapters.)

**Seaward**

Jimsolo wrote:
I'd never heard that about the Minotaurs. It makes a crap ton of sense though. (It also makes the pill easier to swallow if there's two special Chapters.)

Does it really make sense, though? Why would Mars and the HLoT choose traitor geneseed to found a chapter when they've got perfectly good stocks of non-traitor geneseed?

**Void__Dragon**

In terms of the Blood Ravens, I'd have to imagine they would be the result of a long-term machination of the Architect of Fate, and thus would have his full protection.

It's hard for a mortal to beat causality and destiny, which the tale of the Thousand Sons is wrapped up in.

**Beaviz81**

So what do you think VD, you know more than me about the Thousand Sons. Is it possible the Thousand Sons geneseed are at work there with the Blood Ravens?

I'm must note however that I sort of from a personal viewpoint hope they are from Space Wolf-stock (very unlikely) and that the Minotaurs are an Ultramarine-descendant (more likely), if only due to the delicious irony that would spark up.

**Void__Dragon**

To be perfectly honest I've never really played Dawn of War, I know that the Blood Ravens share some surface qualities with the Thousand Sons, but I can't really say much.

It's certainly possible.

**PunkNeverDie110**

Seaward wrote:
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

Also:
they can't be DA successors, they don't hunt the Fallens (all the DA successors do it);
They can't be WS successors, they hardly even have bikes;
Manus... all the Manus sons have some sort of affiliation with the Mechanicus, the BLUHD REHVENZ don't;
Guilliman... a chapter that don't follow the Codex Astartes at least a bit closesly? Every UM successor chapter follow quite strictly the Codex Astartes. The BLUHD REHVENZ have 200 Librarians, and their chapter master is the Librarian Chief (in a Codex - follower Chapter it is not allowed).

Magnus, boys, is the answer IMHO.

**Void__Dragon**

The Blood Ravens follow the Codex Astartes very strictly, as evidenced by their masterful use of Stehl Rane.

**PunkNeverDie110**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Stehl Rheen.

*fixed.

OT: InDICK Boreale FTW.

IT: yep, indeed they are master in the STHEEL RHEEN, which is a Codex Astartes manouver, but so the SW (please, don't bring Wolves hate in this topic, is an example!). And the Wolves don't follow the Codex at all.

**TheDungen**

I'd say 1k sons, I suspected it as soon as I read the IA that they had more than usual amount of librarians.

I haven't read the HH books on it so I cant comment on the 1ksons. I feel the HH series often limit the fluff in ways it need not be limited, the whole traitors who remained loyal formed the GK for an example takes away the chances for people who want to field loyal traitors. Fluff that limits the potential for people to make the armies they want is bad and fluff that extends the potential is good (atleast in that regard). after remember its just a setting, the stories aren't nearly good enough to hold as anything but that. sure I've only read the original trilogy (luna wolves) and the flight of eisenstein, but both failed pretty hard on character development.

**Kain**

Who's finger slipped and hit Angron?

**TheDungen**

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean...

**Kain**

TheDungen wrote:
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean...

No one could have seriously voted Angron unless they made a mistake or are blatantly trolling.

**DarthMarko**

LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....

**Kain**

DarthMarko wrote:
LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....

Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.

**DarthMarko**

Kain wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:
LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....

Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.

I think you toched the hornets nest with this statment....

Err Khorne is fine with Librarians and not with sorceres? LOLWUT?

**Kain**

DarthMarko wrote:
Kain wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:
LOL - well Kyras the Khorne's librarian...It does make sence as much as any other :-) Who voted that I'll buy him a drink....

Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.

I think you toched the hornets nest with this statment....

Err Khorne is fine with Librarians and not with sorceres? LOLWUT?

There's actually a difference. Librarians use their own minds to access the warp, Sorcerers use rituals, artefacts and training to do so. Essentially one is using your own power, the other is kowtowing for favors.

**Hlaine Larkin mk2**

Seaward wrote:
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

Isn't the Salamanders colour of skin brought about by both the geneseed and the radiation that bathes Nocturne?

**Kain**

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Seaward wrote:
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

Isn't the Salamanders colour of skin brought about by both the geneseed and the radiation that bathes Nocturne?

Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?