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 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Well, we can use a simple process of elimination to know who they aren't, at least.

They're not Raven Guard successors. They don't have alabaster skin, black hair, and black eyes.
They're not Salamanders successors. They're largely a bunch of white boys.
They're not Blood Angels successors. They lack the Flaw.
They're not Space Wolf successors. There are none.
They're not Imperial Fist successors. They'd presumably know if all of their super-special organs weren't working.

So. They're sons of El'Jonson, Guilliman, Khan, or Manus. Of those, Guilliman is statistically the most likely.

Also:
they can't be DA successors, they don't hunt the Fallens (all the DA successors do it);
They can't be WS successors, they hardly even have bikes;
Manus... all the Manus sons have some sort of affiliation with the Mechanicus, the BLUHD REHVENZ don't;
Guilliman... a chapter that don't follow the Codex Astartes at least a bit closesly? Every UM successor chapter follow quite strictly the Codex Astartes. The BLUHD REHVENZ have 200 Librarians, and their chapter master is the Librarian Chief (in a Codex - follower Chapter it is not allowed).

Magnus, boys, is the answer IMHO.

Actually, only 2nd founding Chapters are like that, and even then it's touch and go. Many UM successors don't follow the Codex too closely, not all DA successors are even aware of the Fallen, not every WS rides a bike, and not all biker chapters are WS descendant, and not all IH are going to be tech adepts.

Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.

Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.

Wow the only one that has 0 is Fulgrim, go away Fulgrim no one likes you

 TheDungen wrote:
Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.

It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.

"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheDungen wrote:
Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.

It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.

"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"

 Kain wrote:
Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?

Because the Imperium does not create chapters from traitor geneseed.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.

I was under the impression that both of those traits were locked into the geneseed.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheDungen wrote:
Because a lot of people dont like loyalist segments of traitor legions for some reason. Its some sort of fluff elitism which is kind of weird since a lot of the fluff doesn't make sense in the first place.

It's because it is a copout and reeks of fan fiction.

"Oh hey guys, my army is made up of loyalists from the Traitor Legions who did not get all traitory! And the Imperium totally knows and is okay with it!"

I agree that it seems like a bit of a copout in some sense.

However, given that the fluff contains stories of whole companies that stayed loyal, it's not that far a stretch to say that those companies could have, or actually did, later become 2nd founding chapters.

 Kain wrote:
Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.

Actually, he dislikes both using those powers in battle.

Show me a single quote that says Khorne is fine with psykers.

He does, however, seem okay with his champions using sorcery outside of battle. Summoning Daemons and gak, and even Angron made use of rituals to prolong his foray into the Materium, so he could shed more blood.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Before my friend pointed it out, I would have said the Thousand Sons and Magnus. However, I am more inclined to believe it was in fact Lorgar and the Word Bearers at this point.

They were the original hints from Dark Crusade through Eliphas's taunting. But my friend, fellow user Azariah Kyras, noticed the following: The Blood Ravens defend Subsector Aurelia.

Lorgar was also known as the Aurelian. If anything, it at least explains Eliphas's taunts and his vested interest in the Blood Ravens, and it is a much stronger connection than a vague foreshadowing of "a Raven of Blood".

Aurelian simply means golden.

It's why AU is gold on the PToE.

 Seaward wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Why is he eliminating Magnus when it's just one step short of confirmed?

Because the Imperium does not create chapters from traitor geneseed.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
Also, the RG and Salamanders successors don't all have light/dark skin, some have different skin shades due to local mutations and radiations.

I was under the impression that both of those traits were locked into the geneseed.

Canonically at least an entire grand company of the 1k sons remained loyal and told Chaos to stuff it. That is an awful lot of pure geneseed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Erm, Khorne is fine with Librarians, he's just not fond of sorcerers. He also doesn't care how the blood gets shed as long as it would be shed, and Kyras was looking up to drown the entire galaxy in it upon merging with the Daemon of the Maledictum.

Actually, he dislikes both using those powers in battle.

Show me a single quote that says Khorne is fine with psykers.

He does, however, seem okay with his champions using sorcery outside of battle. Summoning Daemons and gak, and even Angron made use of rituals to prolong his foray into the Materium, so he could shed more blood.

Gore mages.

 Seaward wrote:

Because the Imperium does not create chapters from traitor geneseed.

IIRC the Imperium has a stock of gene-seed of every Legion, so they *could* have used it to make a chapter, you know, to see what could happen.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
IIRC the Imperium has a stock of gene-seed of every Legion, so they *could* have used it to make a chapter, you know, to see what could happen.

But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.

Put it this way. You're trying to go to the moon. You build two different types of rocket. They're identical in terms of performance - one has no advantage over the other. During testing, though, one doesn't just explode, it explodes so massively that it takes out most of the eastern United States. Worse yet, you're never going to find our for sure what caused it to explode, so no matter how you fix it up, you'll never know for sure that it won't explode again, and take out the western half of the US this time.

Which one do you decide to take to the moon?

Your analogy hinges on the fallacious assumption that the Imperium is practical.

 Seaward wrote:

But they know what could happen. The chapter could turn traitor.

So what? Many chapters still turn traitor, and they have UM, RG, IH, WS, IF geneseed. The only successor Chapters who seems don't turn traitor are the BA successors.
SW don't have successors at all, Canis Helix instability.

So, again, what's your point?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Your analogy hinges on the fallacious assumption that the Imperium is practical.

It is, within its means.

There's simply no good reason for LOL SEKRIT TRAYTOR GENESEED CHAPTER than that it gives some fans a bit of chub.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

So what? Many chapters still turn traitor, and they have UM, RG, IH, WS, IF geneseed. The only successor Chapters who seems don't turn traitor are the BA successors.
SW don't have successors at all, Canis Helix instability.

So, again, what's your point?

Entire chapters turning traitor is rather rare, and of far, far less magnitude than a Legion turning traitor. And a chapter going over to the dark side is not a "so what" matter to the Imperium.

What does using traitor geneseed give you that using loyalist geneseed doesn't? Nothing at all. It comes with a lot more risk. There's zero reason to do it, ultimately.

 Seaward wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Your analogy hinges on the fallacious assumption that the Imperium is practical.

It is, within its means.

There's simply no good reason for LOL SEKRIT TRAYTOR GENESEED CHAPTER than that it gives some fans a bit of chub.

You sure? I have to remind you that many, and I mean MANY information about what the Imperium do are so secret that even if you see them by error you'd get shot?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

Entire chapters turning traitor is rather rare

Wrong, 6th edition CSM Codex says that every century many more chapters turn traitors, but only the HLoT and the Inquisition know that.
Abyssal Crusade, do you know how many Chapters turned traitors?

 Seaward wrote:
What does using traitor geneseed give you that using loyalist geneseed doesn't? Nothing at all.

Well actually in the case of the Thousand Sons it gives you considerably more potential for psychic ability.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Well actually in the case of the Thousand Sons it gives you considerably more potential for psychic ability.

Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.

 Seaward wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Well actually in the case of the Thousand Sons it gives you considerably more potential for psychic ability.

Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.

In fact, a geneseed is responsable of many traits in a Space Marine.
Skin color; eyes color; ferocity in combat; mutations (Black Rage/Red Thirst or Canis Helix) etc etc etc.
And be a Psyker is a mutation, so yeah the Magnus gene-seed could do that.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
In fact, a geneseed is responsable of many traits in a Space Marine.
Skin color; eyes color; ferocity in combat; mutations (Black Rage/Red Thirst or Canis Helix) etc etc etc.
And be a Psyker is a mutation, so yeah the Magnus gene-seed could do that.

I doubt it.

Either way, it's of only incidental benefit to all but one chapter that's really big on the color grey and knighting around, and they definitely do not use traitor geneseed.

 Seaward wrote:

I doubt it.

Either way, it's of only incidental benefit to all but one chapter that's really big on the color grey and knighting around, and they definitely do not use traitor geneseed.

GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.

No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.

I believe the GK codex also states that one must be a psyker to begin with.

No, again, psychic powers are mutations, like the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, the Canis Helix of the Wolves and the Black Rage/Red Thirst of the Blood Angels.
Again, the Bluhd Rhevenz aren't affected by the flesh change 'cause the Mechanicus (or was the Administrorum, I don't remember who controll the gene-seed stocks) could have found a solution. Simply that.

They could have, sure. And Marneus Calgar could really be Alpharius. The simplest explanation, though, is that they simply used non-traitor geneseed, like with every other post-Heresy chapter in existence.

 Seaward wrote:

They could have, sure. And Marneus Calgar could really be Alpharius. The simplest explanation, though, is that they simply used non-traitor geneseed, like with every other post-Heresy chapter in existence.

Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
Do you have a record of what gene-seed stock was used to create every chapter?
I don't think so.
I think that Minotaurs, for example, descend from the World Eaters. 'Cause they too fuckin' aggressive.

The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.

Something else to consider is that, given how even divergent loyalist chapters rely on a link back to their primarch, founding a chapter with traitor geneseed is really setting a chapter up for a mind screw. They have no primarch to revere and emulate, other chapters are going to shun them, etc. It creates more problems than it solves.

 Seaward wrote:

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

GK 5th edition Codex hints that probably GK are made with the Emprah's geneseed, you know that powerful psyker?
Yeah.

I believe the GK codex also states that one must be a psyker to begin with.

You are taken by the GKs when you're already an initiate in another chapters, so you could easily be a psyker thanks to the gene-seed of chapter X bein' mutated.
Again, what?
The only exception are Inquisitors, by the way psychic powers are a mutation still.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

The Carcharadons are known for their aggression as well, and they're a Raven Guard successor. The importance of geneseed in determining combat tactics and general disposition is considerably overstated - or at least inconsistent.

Would you compare Space Sharks and Minotaurs, please.
Minotaurs are more aggressive than SS, and I mean MORE... and they also have more pre-Heresy technology (LR patterns, Dreadnought Contemptor etc etc etc)

IA: Codes Astartes wrote: The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed. By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.

IA: Rites of Initiation wrote: According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

 Seaward wrote:

Something else to consider is that, given how even divergent loyalist chapters rely on a link back to their primarch, founding a chapter with traitor geneseed is really setting a chapter up for a mind screw. They have no primarch to revere and emulate, other chapters are going to shun them, etc. It creates more problems than it solves.

Bluhd Rehvenz don't have this problem. Yeah, they seek for proves of their past, but they don't give a damn about what other chapters say.

 Seaward wrote:
Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.

Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.

Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?

Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.

Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.

 Seaward wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Really? I wasn't aware that geneseed determined whether or not someone was a psyker. I thought that was a birth mutation.

Ob, so you believe the Thousand Sons just happened to always have been blessed with more psykers than is considered normal? Or them all spontaneously awakening their psychic powers at around the same time, despite never showing psychic potential before?

Not all Thousand Sons were psykers. The majority weren't, in fact.

Given the homogeneous nature of Legion recruitment pre-Heresy, yes, I think it's perfectly plausible that Prospero simply produced more psykers than, say, Nostromo, in the same way that Cadia seems to produce a lot of individuals with violet eyes.

Wrong again. The 1K sons were ALL psykers, the only difference is that someone was a weaker psyker than someone else. The Rubric of Ahriman did, in fact, kill all the 1k sons who Psychic powers were too weak and buffed up the already powerful ones.
They were all psykers, only in differents degrees.