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So Tau shenanigans aside will we be able to get shirts with the drunk Space Marine in the martini glass? Cause I really want one.

I second that, I want one of those shirts

 MikeFox wrote:
So Tau shenanigans aside will we be able to get shirts with the drunk Space Marine in the martini glass? Cause I really want one.

Can we preorder those!? I want to wear it around the house to irk the misses!

Seconded

I have a serious question about the Hotel room, When I go to book there are only 2 bed rooms. What If I just want a 1. Is that possible under your thingie?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not against banning it, Besides I might not even getting it What Im against is the prinicibal that we can cherrypick certain units that are too OP. Because If we do I go a nice long list of things I do not like

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I dont want anything banned, I want people to have the right to build the army list they want.

I underlined the conflict as I see it, but left the whole quote so that it won't be seemingly taken out of context.

So... you're not against banning it, but you don't want anything banned. Honestly, you can't have it both ways, those two things are incongruent

It sounds like you ascribe to the "line in the sand" mentality of "Don't ban anything, ever". Fantasy gave up on this a long time ago... almost every major tourney banned a handful of things that were deemed broken by the vast majority of players (folding fortress, teclis, and a few other things... power scrolls sometimes as well, before GW recognized how insane they were and changed them themselves).

Anyway, just thought those 2 posts of yours were intersting back-to-back . I'm guessing what you were getting at is that, IF it was banned, you'd like to add a whole bunch of things to the list. But that's not how these things are done. There has to be a really good consensus before something is banned... in fantasy, the only high elf builds you would ever see at an event included Teclis, and he was absurdly broken. Easy fix, banned... and all of a sudden you get to see a reasonable variety of high elf lists again.

Riptides are already one of the most powerful units in the game, if FW puts out a super-powerful mondo version of it... there's plenty of reason to consider banning it. Whereas, there is much less reason to consider banning normal Riptides. The difference is pretty obvious in an actual, real-life conversation rather than on the internet, imo... but I understand that this conversation will get dragged into "Why not codex units?" regardless of the obvious difference.

 RiTides wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not against banning it, Besides I might not even getting it What Im against is the prinicibal that we can cherrypick certain units that are too OP. Because If we do I go a nice long list of things I do not like

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I dont want anything banned, I want people to have the right to build the army list they want.

I underlined the conflict as I see it, but left the whole quote so that it won't be seemingly taken out of context.

So... you're not against banning it, but you don't want anything banned. Honestly, you can't have it both ways, those two things are incongruent

It sounds like you ascribe to the "line in the sand" mentality of "Don't ban anything, ever". Fantasy gave up on this a long time ago... almost every major tourney banned a handful of things that were deemed broken by the vast majority of players (folding fortress, teclis, and a few other things... power scrolls sometimes as well, before GW recognized how insane they were and changed them themselves).

Anyway, just thought those 2 posts of yours were intersting back-to-back . I'm guessing what you were getting at is that, IF it was banned, you'd like to add a whole bunch of things to the list. But that's not how these things are done. There has to be a really good consensus before something is banned... in fantasy, the only high elf builds you would ever see at an event included Teclis, and he was absurdly broken. Easy fix, banned... and all of a sudden you get to see a reasonable variety of high elf lists again.

Riptides are already one of the most powerful units in the game, if FW puts out a super-powerful mondo version of it... there's plenty of reason to consider banning it. Whereas, there is much less reason to consider banning normal Riptides. The difference is pretty obvious in an actual, real-life conversation rather than on the internet, imo... but I understand that this conversation will get dragged into "Why not codex units?" regardless of the obvious difference.

Let me put my completly confusing ideal up. I it stays they way it is, Ban it, Along with other forge world units, Fine by me. But don't make a list of units that people consider overpowered units and, because everyone has a different Idea of Overpowered to them. Like the new sisters gun that Auto-perils psykers. I might not consider that OP, but Deamons will. And Bias, no matter the person will seep through. The reason being that it will snowball into "OMG, Heldrakes are OP,Ban them" and someone will listen, not my Friend cant bring his customheldrake to show off on the table. Does that clear it up? I say make it a zero-sum tournament, not "I dont like this and This" tournament

There's no need to quote the whole post if it's right above yours, hotsauce

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Let me put my completly confusing ideal up. I it stays they way it is, Ban it, Along with other forge world units, Fine by me. But don't make a list of units that people consider overpowered units and, because everyone has a different Idea of Overpowered to them.

I just don't understand this still. How can you say "If it stays the way it is, ban it" and then follow that up with "But don't make a list of units that people consider overpowered".

Making such a list is exactly how you figure out what might need to be banned... and imo, when in doubt you don't ban something.

But you'd get pretty universal "Yays" on things like thudd guns, this new Tau insanity (if the rules go final as they are), and maybe a handful of other things. In the past, the list would've been different as FW fixes things, but it's pretty easy to point out what is insane right now. Also, posted last page:

Budzerker wrote:
Even Wargamescon said they would ban thudd guns and a few other OP FW items for next year.

I know Reecius is sick of this discussion, but when even Reecius is saying he might have to ban something, you know it's batgak crazy.

Thudd Guns, the FW Tau battlesuit if it goes final as-is... it'd be a short list, and everyone would be happier for it (or almost everyone). There's a reason this conversation isn't going away, and it won't until either GW/FW fixes the rules for these few units, making the discussion moot, or events like this make a simple fix and ban the handful of extreme offenders until GW/FW do fix them.

It's really not hard, or extreme to fix! And again, I know Reecius is sick to death of this conversation, but when even he has to consider banning something... well, there's been a bit of a sea change . There's absolutely nothing wrong with excluding a few FW units that haven't been updated, or that are just crazy. In the past, it might've been a Dreadclaw. In the present, it's Thudd guns or this newcomer. It's an easy fix, and lets everyone have their cake (using lots of fun FW units) and eat it too (not have to deal with the insanity that is the experimental rules of this Tau unit, or a whole line of thudd guns, etc).

But then just ban forgeworld, Or ban one thing from eevery army. If not the players of the armies who contains those banned units will feel that it is unfair "Oh, I cant bring my thuddguns but he can bring his contemptor with ares cannons, how is that fair" I say make a blanket statement if you do ban something, to make it fair.

Time to end this conversation in this thread. Plenty of other places to rehash the FW/no-FW/etc. conversation.

So how about those T-shirts?

There better be a "I went to the LVO and all I got was this T-shirt" shirt

 MikeFox wrote:
So Tau shenanigans aside will we be able to get shirts with the drunk Space Marine in the martini glass? Cause I really want one.

Where can I place my order for t shirt?

Yes, we will be selling T-Shirts for pre-order that will go in your packet to be handed out during registration at the event!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frankie and I will get those up on the site today to start taking orders.

Since you are looking at possible changes to your tournaments, why don't you put up some polls on your forums?

We did. http://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=36

I will put some more up, though.

Still anything about possible single hotel rooms.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Still anything about possible single hotel rooms.

What do you mean a single room? Hotel rooms cost the same if they are singles or doubles.

If you are talking about finding a roomate it is still aways away in February. Most people are still making plans and figuring out what they are doing for travel arraignments and looking at rooming with friends.

Even if you do get a roommate now there is a good chance that something will come up and they will cancel between now and then anyways. That is why you are better off waiting until after the New Year when people start to firm up their plans, and find out that the roommate that they thought that they have is not going.

Sorry, My family(especially me) has a penchant for planning things WAY ahead of when they should.

 Reecius wrote:
We did. http://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=36

I will put some more up, though.

I am shocked that people want to raise the point limit up to 1850 instead of 1750 while staying at 2 hours 15 minutes.

I think that most people have not played in a GT level event in the last 6 months because a GT level game takes a lot of time and 100 points worth of models is notthing when your game ends on turn #3.

When I drive up there to play you a game Reese we will time it and see how long it takes us.

This is actually a really great thread on your forums!

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20

Nice to see that games not finishing is acknowledged as a problem, and many things being considered to address it. Good show!

Of course, going up to 1850 and keeping the time limit the same wouldn't help but I don't think that's going to be the end result of that discussion.

@Blackmoor

Yeah, that is a good idea. I don't like to ever make decisions based on impressions, or feelings but on data. If we can prove that the optimal time/points ratio is 1500, 1650,1750,1850,2000, whatever, with data to back it up, then that settles things for me.

@RiTides

Thanks! We pride ourselves on being honest, even when it shows that we did something incorrectly or made a mistake. Denying something happened or ignoring it doesn't make it less true.

Games finishing is more important that more toys, for me. However, as you can tell from the polls, a lot of people disagree =P

 Reecius wrote:
@Blackmoor

Yeah, that is a good idea. I don't like to ever make decisions based on impressions, or feelings but on data. If we can prove that the optimal time/points ratio is 1500, 1650,1750,1850,2000, whatever, with data to back it up, then that settles things for me.

@RiTides

Thanks! We pride ourselves on being honest, even when it shows that we did something incorrectly or made a mistake. Denying something happened or ignoring it doesn't make it less true.

Games finishing is more important that more toys, for me. However, as you can tell from the polls, a lot of people disagree =P

Three hour rounds at BFS had a dramatic impact on the "feel" of completing, beyond just natural conclusion. I also think it's hard to evaluate even hard numbers. Over 85% of games at NOVA finished on time, but if I had to hazard a guess, it'd be that less than 50% of players finished ALL of their games on time, with probably a very high % of people who had at least one or two games NOT get close. Some individuals failed to finish MANY of their games, though that was an outlier. These are all based on concrete numbers; fortunately, MOST GT's are tracking all of this information now, so a lot of decision making is being done based upon hard data.

25% of slots for fantasy = how many people currently signed up?

@ Leenus

Last count was 20 (64 total). Please let your friends know to grab those tickets sooner than later.

@MVBrandt

Good to hear, I am glad other events are tracking game completion. It will never be 100% accurate but it helps a ton to make informed decisions.

3 hour rounds is nice but holy crap that makes for a long day if you are playing more than 5 rounds. How many rounds did they run?

They had two, three round days. They were long, and the drive home took even longer heh.

3 hour rounds were perfect for 1850 - 2000 IMO, mind you, I'd still prefer lower point values. At NOVA I had 4/9 games finish, and in 5 games I spent the entire time hustling my opponent (generally tau, once daemons) who took forever to deploy, make decisions, and move their models. 5 games out of 9 making it to turn 4 - and one requiring judge permission to PLAY turn 4, ruined the event for me.

BFS on the other hand, I had one game (vs tau...) where I only got 4 turns in (with gk land raider/stormraven...I was fast), and all of my other finished naturally and I/we got to experience random game length.

I'd really like to see an event give 1500 points an honest chance, rather than the knee jerk reaction of "too low! nevar!!". Build 1500 point lists as a thought exercise if it appears a bad idea to you at first is all I can ask people - you'll quickly realize the lists barely change, you just get 1 less riptide, wraithknight, or a couple less wave serpents (6 instead of 8?!).

 Reecius wrote:
@ Leenus

Last count was 20 (64 total). Please let your friends know to grab those tickets sooner than later.

@MVBrandt

Good to hear, I am glad other events are tracking game completion. It will never be 100% accurate but it helps a ton to make informed decisions.

3 hour rounds is nice but holy crap that makes for a long day if you are playing more than 5 rounds. How many rounds did they run?

6 rounds, 2 days. They were able to shave a few off lunch and breaks as well, because most games finished with time to grab a beer or take a breather.

@Garner

Yeah, that is the max rounds for 3 hours in a day, IMO. That is a minimum of an 11 hour day with lunch, breaks, registrations, etc. That starts to wear you out big time.

@Target

I agree 100% about 1500, it's just that people push back against it hard. I mean, I understand, I prefer 2K to write the best lists I can, but what's the point when you don't finish games? I have been a proponent for 1500 in tournaments for years but the community support just isn't there.

What we need to do, is present a study--so to speak--where we run events at 1500, 1750, 1850, etc. and track very closely how many games finish, etc. and then present the data so that people can make informed decisions. If the community wants more toys to much that they are willing to not finish games, then so be it.

It's just that now folks make the decision based on what they like to play at not what actually result sin finished games.

@Mike

Nice, that is a bit like the Golden Throne which was 2K Double FOC and 3 hour rounds. They were 3 and 2 though, which meant Sunday you weren't playing so long.

We all knew that 6th edition takes longer to play than 5th did, and that is the reason why the Nova Open dropped down from 2000 points to 1850.

What most people don’t understand is that the last 3 codexes take even longer to play and there was still an issue with finishing games at the Nova. Just to give a small example: Eldar have 2 movement phases (almost all of their models can move twice and still shoot) and that takes time.

So unless you have played in a GT in the last couple of months you do not realize that there is a major issue with time and finishing games. So all of those people just say to add more points unaware of the time issue.

It is like a hurricane is approaching New Orleans and the people who know better get out of town, and the others end up in the Superdome. The people who want more points are the last type.