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Hey Guys ,

If you have read the previous thread, you know whats going on. Sorry to repeat.
If not, here goes..

My friends and I are doing an " Invasion : Amerika" campaign using the old Milton Bradley board game " Fortress America" as the map to track the invasion and using another set of modern rules to play out the battles. The problem is the game is good, we are just fighting battles that are too big to finish in our 3 hr game time. So we need a faster rules set to accomodate our gaming. I discovered FoW a few months ago and REALLY like the rules and game play. We are going to start using the FoW rules set to play our modern battles in America. My tasks are as follows ...

1. Assemble a list of available units for the forces representing. -- Check
2. Create stats for said lists in the FoW rules set. -- ....waiting....waiting....waiting.....

So there is my dilema.
I need some help putting modern vehicles and infantry into FoW stats.

I have the following modern units that see action on a regular basis...

U.S. --
U.S. Reserves -- These guys have WW2 and Korean era weaponry including Bazookas and Flamethrowers.
U.S. Army -- These guys have modern firepower including Guided anti-tank missles and Night vision goggles.
U.S. Marines -- These guys use smaller units that are a little more highly trained to accomplish various strike force style missions.
M1A1 Abrams -- United States Main batle tank
Strykers-- lightly armed troop transports

South American Forces --
Regular Army -- Much the same as the U.S. forces.
Vietnam era Soviet Tanks -- I figured the Soviets are arming the entire world at this point, why not give the Cubans retired stuff from the Vietnam era.

Asian Alliance --
Regular Army -- Same
Modern North Korean Tanks, Transports and Helicopters

European Union --
Regular Army -- Same
Special forces -- Spetnatz
Modern Soviet T-80's and Transport vehicles and Helicopters.

Has anyone played the "Tour of Duty" rules yet? -- Do they have rules for Helicopters in them?

Again guys, any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Andyman

Go to my Blog and download my Cold War Rules for use with FLAMES OF WAR..(it's all free )

Take the Lists too, (Click on them and download the Lists).

Enjoy, if you don't like something just change it to what it needs to be to suit your own Bespoke Ruleset.

Have fun...

http://stoppingtheredtide.blogspot.co.uk/

Pick up a copy of the "Tropic Lightning"....I wouldn't get to wrapped up in TOUR OF DUTY it is very narrow in it's scope. Tropic Lightning provides very good Helicopter rules.

If you need any help let me know....For Strykers, I would take the stats of the LAV-25 and just put 0.50cals or whatever weapons you want on to that Chassis.

Thanks Mike!!

Great Stuff!!

I think there is an error in one of your units stats, specifically the M60A3 and Centurion

Both tanks ares armed with the 105mm M68/ Royal Ordanance L7 but both have lower range and AT than every other tank armed with the exact same gun

Are you interested in the modern stats being compatible with other FoW lists or do you simply want to use the system?

Compatible wise,

IMO, an Abrams would probably be F: 18, S:14, T: 2

The 105mm would be Rng:48" RoF2, AT:18, FP:2+

Could be fired as a Bombardment with Rng: 60" AT:3 FP:3+

Probably around 400 points each as Confidant Trained with Wide Tracks and 3 MGs(including AA50cal)

Maybe give them Ablative Armor, basically Shurzen that applies to attacks from any direction.


But thats only if you were going to use the Abrams against say Mid or Late war vehicles. For pure Cold War Mwnciboos rules are awesome

 EmilCrane wrote:
I think there is an error in one of your units stats, specifically the M60A3 and Centurion

Both tanks ares armed with the 105mm M68/ Royal Ordanance L7 but both have lower range and AT than every other tank armed with the exact same gun

Cheers I will check that out....

EDIT - Quite right, I got that wrong. I will change the M60A3 Stat line to reflect this so it is the same M1 Abrams with the 105mm.

I also need to add in Command Vehicles too.

Thanks again guys!
All the feedback just makes the game better!
Does anyone have any AAR's they want to share using the modern FoW ruleset?

I wish there were more AAR's, this has been in advanced testing for Months. The more people who play, the quicker I can iron out the unforeseen bugs.

Currently wrestling with RPGs and such, at close range....might change some values and also wrestling with possible Veteran Units.

@EmilCrane Thanks for the feedback, I've already made some changes - Version 3 now live...

If you spot anything else let me know, somethings are there for a reason others are genuine mistakes.

There was another Guy who wrote a Book call MODERN WARFARE- Dean Wilson?



Nearly bought it till I realised he also wrote "Enema-erotica" so I figured it would be Crap......

Mwnciboo--
I had to subscribe to the blog site, but it was worth it!
You have done an awful lot of top notch work!! GREAT JOB!!
And yes, we are going to do a modern take on the Invasion : America idea.
Any suggestions on what the units would look like for the North Koreans and Cuban/Mexican forces?

Your premise seems really strange to me. How do you justify Abrams, Strykers, NVGs and ATGMs but then stick the reserves with WW2/Korea era surplus? That just makes no sense to me.

Because there were still stockpiles of older equipment from the Korean war and before, and such equipment would have been distributed to reservists and drafted soldiers.

While it may not have been state of the art, a Pershing tank would still be better than no tank at all. You can't exactly churn out tons and tons of Abrams.

The Idea I had was that the Cubans would use alot of retired era tanks on the initial push into the US.
I was on some other militart forums and asked former and current reservists about their equipment and the response I got was overwhleming-- Our U.S. reserves are in SAD shape. As recently as last year, a unit in Kearney, Nebraska finally got their funding from the CLINTON era. yeah. I was informed that they could finally requisition new uniforms. The ones they were using were from the KOREAN war!!
So..the idea is that the U.S. forces are pretty much underfunded and unprepared and the first wave of attackers from Cuba are using re-vamped and upgraded WW2 and Korean era equipment.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Because there were still stockpiles of older equipment from the Korean war and before, and such equipment would have been distributed to reservists and drafted soldiers.

While it may not have been state of the art, a Pershing tank would still be better than no tank at all. You can't exactly churn out tons and tons of Abrams.

Except it never worked that way in real life... We didn't keep stock piles of that stuff, it got replaced with newer/better gear as it came along. National Guard units often got Abrams before active units in fact. By the early 90's all M60s were out of the force (and the Marines held onto them the longest). Korea War era tanks were gone in the 60s. Heck, I can't think of any Korea era armor we sent to Vietnam, the M48 was the main one we used there.

It is your game world, have at it. But to keep factories open and producing parts for Pershings would never be economically or strategically sound in a world where we are cranking out Abrams, especially when that world contains a threat that actually can deploy enough troops to invade the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
The Idea I had was that the Cubans would use alot of retired era tanks on the initial push into the US.
I was on some other militart forums and asked former and current reservists about their equipment and the response I got was overwhleming-- Our U.S. reserves are in SAD shape. As recently as last year, a unit in Kearney, Nebraska finally got their funding from the CLINTON era. yeah. I was informed that they could finally requisition new uniforms. The ones they were using were from the KOREAN war!!
So..the idea is that the U.S. forces are pretty much underfunded and unprepared and the first wave of attackers from Cuba are using re-vamped and upgraded WW2 and Korean era equipment.

I call BS on this. Flat out BS. No reserve unit has worn Korean War era uniforms in decades. Another thing to point out, there are no reserve combat units, the National Guard provides combat units the Reserve provides service support units.

You totally backed up my research. ( reserves arent for actual combat ) I didnt say it was my unit or any unit I was attached to, I was just relaying to you the voice that I heard when I talked to some guys who were in the reserves. And the Cubans will have most of the old soviet equipment. And unless you ( cpt.jake ) can confirm your statement with the over 300 units of national guard out there, I wouldnt be so quick to be definite about what units have and what they dont have.

FarseerAndyMan wrote:
You totally backed up my research. ( reserves arent for actual combat ) I didnt say it was my unit or any unit I was attached to, I was just relaying to you the voice that I heard when I talked to some guys who were in the reserves. And the Cubans will have most of the old soviet equipment. And unless you ( cpt.jake ) can confirm your statement with the over 300 units of national guard out there, I wouldnt be so quick to be definite about what units have and what they dont have.

You're not getting it. Reserves are not just 'not for actual combat', they do not HAVE combat units.

Something else to consider, who do you think can muster and deploy faster, an active duty unit or a National Guard unit not on active duty?

And I will categorically state, NO unit has had WW2 or Korea era uniforms for decades. And there are ZERO guard units with anything close to Korea era vehicles or weapons, except as trophies or displays at their armories. (well, some may still have a few old 5 ton and 2 1/2 ton trucks, but those will generally be post Vietnam era models and they only have them because they didn't turn them in and keep them off the books).

http://www.nationalguardmagazine.com/publication/?i=83707&p=40

and

The Committee is aware that the Army has been producing two variants of the M1 Abrams Tank. The production of M1A1SA (Situational Awareness) Tanks is scheduled to end in July 2011. M1A2 SEP (System Enhancement Package) production ends in June 2013. At that point in time, the Army would have 17 active component Brigade Combat Teams with M1A2 SEP Tanks and Bradley A3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles. All but one Army National Guard brigade would continue with M1A1SA Tanks and M2 ODS (Operation Desert Storm) SA Bradleys. The Army would have 1,547 M1A2SEP Tanks in active component units plus one Army National Guard brigade, and 791 M1A1 Tanks, all in Army National Guard units. The production lines would be shut down and the workforce would disperse and relocate.

from http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&sid=cp112p3bcL&r_n=hr110.112&dbname=cp112&&sel=TOC_125321&

and a list of all military ground vehicles used by the US Army (NG and Active duty) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currently_active_United_States_military_land_vehicles

In May 1997, at Fort Riley, 1st Battalion, 635th Armor, Kansas Army National Guard, retired the last M60-series tanks in the United States' military force structure. The 58 M60A3 main battle tanks of the Kansas Guard's only armor battalion were unceremoniously parked in a holding pen at the Camp Funston Mobilization and Training Equipment Site (MATES), in the Kansas River Valley, down the hill from Fort Riley's main post.

from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m60.htm

No reserve unit has tanks (except as display pieces) because there are NO reserve combat arms units.

^Listen to this guy, he knows what he is talking about XD Nothing I can say hasn't been said before, but I might as well through a few cents in...

And yeah, there are times where the National Guard is better equipped and deployed MORE often than some Active Duty units. And yes, the military doesn't stockpile that stuff. I'm sure we still have BDU/DCU's around, but no WW2/Korea stuff. That has all long been sold off to other countries or into civilian markets. As CptJake said, the only stuff I have seen that is that old or close to on the local Army base (Fort Dix) is the 5 ton trucks.

The reserve is entirely for support units. Obviously, they are still trained so if we absolutely had to arm a reserve unit (for whatever reason, that's irrelevant) they could fight but not nearly as effective as active or guard.

Pretty much, the oldest equipment you might see if we had to mobilize literally every single soldier, sailor, and airman we had is stuff from the late 80's. I also saw a lot of mixed unitforms for a long time, used to be UCP and DCU/BDU. Recently I saw some reserve guys at the base doing their mandated refreshment training for the weekend wearing a mix of UCP uniform and Multicam vests

Hey guys,
I'm just going by what other reservists have told me about their personal experiences. Just to give you a heads up..the guy that gave me the most info was in the reserves until 1989. He was telling me about his unit in Kearney. The equipment they were using from the Korean era was "webbing" ( is that belts and straps ? ) and helmets.
Now, the time frame I want to set it in is circa 1993. I will admit I'm not much of a buff on dates, so any help on what was in production at the time would be great!
The idea is that after the first war in Iraq, the Soviets saw the worldwide deployment of US Troops and decides to mobilize the rest of the world against the US. The majority of our forces were mobilized around the world, so only the natl guard and US reserves are available for the first wave of attacks.
Im looking to do a fun "what if".
So not having served, I could just go by what info I was provided. I wasn't lookin to start an argument, just repeating what I was told.
Thanks for the feedback guys! It helps me put a clearer picture together of what the forces would look like.
Amdyman

By '93 the oldest tanks being used by our forces were M60A3 with the thermal sight package. No where near Korean war era, and many NG units already had Abrams (though they mainly would have been M1 or M1IP vice M1A1s. Many active units (including mine) had already upgraded to the M1A1HC (DU armor package). The last class to use M60 series tanks for training at Ft Knox graduated in very early 92, so the Army (to include NG units) was very far along to the transition to an Abrams pure force at that point.

US reserves would NOT be available for the first wave of attacks. Period. Again, they just DO NOT have combat arms units nor could they mobilize very quickly, you would get more fire power mobilizing local police forces. NEVER would 100% (or even close) of active units be deployed outside CONUS. When we have large overseas commitments the NG pulls a share of the load for a variety of reasons (see the Balkans and Iraq and Afghanistan and Egypt/Israel as examples). First response would always be active units while the NG was mobilized. They just can react a lot quicker.

Active duty posts have railheads which give quick access to the country and to port facilities. We can (and did) load out a full heavy combat brigade from motor pool to RORO ships in under 72 hours from Ft Hood (I was a tank platoon leader at that point). Active duty posts also have ammo storage facilities that often also hold their NG round out brigades' ammo.

Equipment used overseas (like in Iraq) is generally from overseas storage sites (though obviously there are large exceptions). After the 91 war we had very large unit sets prepositioned in Kuwait and other places, and had the POMCUS sights in Europe. We really started to expand those after Desert Storm.

We currently have unit sets for Stryker BCTs for Afghanistan and some very large sets for different BCT types propositioned in several locations.

I still call BS on the reservist guy. Web gear made in the 50's would not be usable in the late 80s. The material just doesn't hold up that well unless stored in very controlled conditions (which would mean it wasn't issued out). Patterns may be similar, but he did NOT have Korean War era stuff. Vietnam? Maybe. Korea, no way.

There are a lot of problems logistically with the scenario. The biggest is how do all these countries move their heavy gear to the US? Next issue is how do they maintain it all once here? Force projection is not easy. But assuming you hand wave all that away (every one loves Red Dawn, right? I know I do). I would still say you will see units with Bradleys and M1 series tanks with some M113 and maybe M60 series tank unit augmentation in the '93 timeframe.

It sounds like a fun project. And you can hand wave a lot to make it the way you want. Old troopers like me will question stuff that does not make sense but your group may very well not give a toot, and that is fine. Games are games.. They should be fun. I just try to put a realism/plausible aspect into the stuff I do and some of what you initially planned set off my "no way that happens' alarm.

There is a modern TOE Yahoo group that has folks that can give you some GREAT info on exactly what units had what gear for this time period. There are also plenty of internet sites which can provide a lot of info (looking up unit history sites is one quick/easy way, looking up types of equipment and checking fielding dates is another).

Everything that has been said so far has been factual...However if FarseerAndyman wants to do some alternative universe thing....All power to him..

I just pointed him at my blog to help maybe with Stats. Just because History happened in a particular fashion shouldn't impinge on the whole "Fantasy" or "Alternative History Angle".

Like I try where possible to keep all my stuff on my 15mm stuff to real world 1986 there are a few fudges in there, like the AH-64. But this was chiefly because I was sick of people saying "What no APACHE WTF?" So I added it in more for completeness rather than accuracy. The same with the British Warrior Armoured Fighting Vehicle. This is war gaming, not historical re-enactment or a history book.

Thanks for the feedback cap!
When old boy told me his stuff was Korean era , i was surprised as well, but who knows??
But thanks for the info, like I said, I didnt actively serve so I could only go by what info was given to me in feedback.
So please forgive my ignorance, The Army National Guard is a seperate fighting force from The US Reserves? Or am I mixing the two ? The info I was given from others seems to support your statement about the Reserves not being combat ready very quickly as well.
So the standing US forces within our borders would have been copmposed of what -- roughly-- we dont need a complete and total breakdown, just an idea of what we would be able to mobilize in the first 48 hrs.
The Cubans and Mexicans joined forces and mobilized into Texas, New Mexico, California and Florida. The Cubans are using combined forces to launch attacks onto the beaches of Florida after quickly dealing with the Coast Guard and setting up staging areas in the Keys.
On the west coast, the North Koreans have launched attacks by Aircraft carriers along the coast at Portland, LA, San Francisco, and San Diego.
On the east coast, The Soviets have launched attacks on New York, Atlanta and Charlotte. Again, massive Aircraft carriers and massed beach head landings.
Well do some battles next month and give some feedback!

National Guard are not Reserves.

It goes like this:

Federal forces generally consist of Active Duty and Reserves. The Reserves have combat service support units that if activated can support large scale contingency operations (big wars). Think things like transportation and logistics units that are not typically needed during peace time and therefore not worth burdening the tax payer to keep on active duty. They DO NOT have Armor/Infantry/Cavalry/Aviation/Artillery/Engineer units.

The National Guard provides the States with a force the Governor can call upon for all kinds of stuff from disaster relief and other things. The Federal Government can activate NG units (federalize) them and deploy them to respond to stateside contingencies (like large scale disaster relief we saw for Hurricane Katrina) or to deploy to war. The states and federal government share the burden of equipping and training these troops. When federalized for a combat deployment the units usually undergo a quick train up/certification, deploy, then demobilize before going back to an inactive status. Several positions in each unit are considered 'Active Guard' which allows some full time staff/planners/command. These are combat arms and combat support (with some combat service support) and equipped and organized as their active duty brothers. I cannot think of any NG combat units that have not deployed to either the Balkans, Iraq or Afghanistan in the last decade though I am sure someone will point out dozens that did not that I am unaware of. It is very much separate from the Reserves though (and this is confusing) it IS considered a reserve component of the total force (because it is not always on active duty). Active Duty does provide trainers and evaluators to NG units as they conduct training and certification (I have done this before). The units MUST certify they can conduct the doctrinal tasks that type of unit is supposed to be able to perform to the 'same' standard as their active duty counterparts. To confuse you more, there are a Reserve units (always under Federal control/funding) that also do some of certifications/evaluations. Basically the federal gov't certifies the state units so they can continue to receive federal funds and gear.

In the '93 time frame you have about 10 Active Duty divisions, most of 7 of them CONUS. In 48 hours the 82nd from Bragg (their first BDE is ready in 12 hours), the 101st from Campbell, the ready brigade of 1st Cav from Hood (24 hours MAX) and the ready brigade from the 24th/3ID (can't remember when they reflagged) from Stewart would all be able to respond pretty much anywhere, but the paratroopers from the 82nd are the easiest to move. The heavy guys from Stewart and Hood would need to rail or HET their big stuff to include logistics assets in quantity to where it was needed (BUT CAN fly it in in BN strength easily in the first 24 hours). The rest of the 1st Cav and 3ID would follow within the first 72-96 hours. 3 ACR probably moves to screen the border in the first 24 hours too. Those Cav guys can move when they need to). You'll also be spinning up what was available from 2AD and 1ID and all the NG heavy units. All 3 BNs from the 75th are ready to go within 12 hours too (the Ranger Regiment).

With Ft Hood (1st Cav and 2AD) near Killeen Texas and Ft Stewart (3ID) in SE Georgia, and the 3rd ACR at Ft Bliss (El Paso) you have a LOT of combat power on active duty. Also, you have air force assets... Do not over look them. The A10s flying out of Davis Monthan during that time period pack some hitting power.

An interesting scenario, during your time period the 82 still had a BN of M551 Sheridans which could deploy by air (and even LAPSE or Lord Forbid Heavy Drop if needed). These coupled with TOW equipped hummers will make an interesting force to face the initial invasion.

The 3ACR will also provide an interesting force for you, and alternatively the 2nd Cavalry Regiment was turning into a light regiment at this time (Ft Polk Louisiana) , and could also provide an interesting force.

You'll have to get input from a Marine for what they had...

Thanks for the info Capn!
That puts a different spin on our games for sure.

The key thing is to have fun.. It is your game, your fictional version of history. I personally think you can use somewhat historical units and still have fun, but if using non-historical units is better for you guys, go for it.

I asked about stats and everyone had a go at me...
you ask and get loads of nice replys.

Gotta say though...
The guys on the Historical posts are much friendlier than the 40k posts!!

Yeah I made this observation about 18 months ago.. This is where the older demographic, and the young bloods with Old heads on Young Shoulders hang out.

The members are much more likely to take an "Avuncular" take on things, where as are the 40k side it's alot more "In your Face - you stupid douche" type approach.

This had always annoyed me...

Damn, so us old timers being polite annoys you?

Well in your face you stoopid douche!



(just kidding!)

Could never be annoyed with you Jake, you are a straight shooter..... You see it, you call it..... No BS, I like and respect that.

I do get annoyed with the 40k side where constant bickering over "Which codex is better" or which Characters are Over powered makes me laugh. Then I see some poor soul tentatively making their first few posts and certain members of the Forum leap on them tear them apart rather than helping or taking them under their wing or helping them around the forums and letting them become comfortable on here. So many people contribute, but I know some who just like to feed off being negative.

Hey just to lighten the mood (and maybe something you older Vets and prior Service guys might like). Check out these..I've just finished Liquid Green Stuffing these to cover gaps and give a better finish..



2S3's, a UK Spartan, a UK Sultan and a pair of SHILKA's...

This is Battlefronts new M113.....It's really, really nice.....



Ready to be Primed Tomorrow and Painted Monday!! (Monday is a Labor Day in the UK!!!)

Are the non-Battlefront vehicles QRF?

Can't wait to see those painted!

Jake

Yeah they are all QRF, I'm moving away from QRF at the moment towards the Battlefront Vietnam stuff to cover gaps in my collection.

I'm not sure everyone is aware but Zvesda are Releasing HOT WAR which is their Cold War version of "Art of Tactic" range.

So lots of nice plastic 15mm stuff all nice and cheap.

I'm currently in E-mail conversations about getting some their stuff to review!

Also Any requests for Units or Camo Schemes for a Particular Period Jake? I'm in two minds about the Camo should it be one or the other for 1986.... I'm heading towards the second but the 1st might be more accurate.



Or this Camo



Or maybe this type...But I cannot find an M113 with US Woodland Camo on it like this AAV7.



I've always had a bit of a soft-spot for the US Cavalry, 11th ACR in particular but not because of the Vietnam Era exploits just from my Memories of Germany in the 80's and the 11th ACR being the Guardians of Fulda.

I always thought the CAV units were extremely combat orientated, and quite Lean as US Army formations went but very well equipped, but had a light footprint compared with their Heavy Division Cousins.