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I want to clarify whether or not a Farsight bomb with Shadowsun can infiltrate during deployment.

The rules say that, "Units that contain at least one model with thus special rule..." This indicates that like stealth/shrouded, only one model has to have the rule for the unit to get the ability. However it also says, "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

Does this mean that while Shadowsun can give Farsight's 7-man unit infiltrate, as soon as he joins in the unit loses the rule because he's an IC w/o infiltrate? Similarly, In a unit of just Shadowsun and Farsight, can they infiltrate?

Nope, you have to deploy units separably. Since you can only join IC's to units by deploying them together on the board or by putting them in reserves together there is no opportunity to slap both shadowsun and a unit that doesn't have infiltrate down onto the board during the infiltrators deployment step.

You must either deploy shadowsun, put her in reserves or infiltrate her. The unit that is not yet deployed can only be placed on deployed on the board or put in reserves as there is no unit attached that can allow them to infiltrate at that moment.

The use of "at least one model" is for things like wolf guard or royal courts where the new model with/without the rule joins a unit with/without the rule before deployment.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope, you have to deploy units separably. Since you can only join IC's to units by deploying them together on the board or by putting them in reserves together there is no opportunity to slap both shadowsun and a unit that doesn't have infiltrate down onto the board during the infiltrators deployment step.

Edit: I disagree with you on this part. Since infiltration is still considered part of deployment and ICs can be deployed with a unit, this allows Shadowsun's chosen unit to deploy with her after everything else.

 acekevin8412 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope, you have to deploy units separably. Since you can only join IC's to units by deploying them together on the board or by putting them in reserves together there is no opportunity to slap both shadowsun and a unit that doesn't have infiltrate down onto the board during the infiltrators deployment step.

Are you sure about this ruling? Doesn't this render all non-permanently attached retinue units useless since you can't start the game with them? By useless I mean if you go second, your IC can get singled out and obliterated.

There are two ways to join an IC to a unit - start them together in reserves, or deploy the IC in coherency with the unit. once the first turn starts, the IC is in the unit.

 acekevin8412 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope, you have to deploy units separably. Since you can only join IC's to units by deploying them together on the board or by putting them in reserves together there is no opportunity to slap both shadowsun and a unit that doesn't have infiltrate down onto the board during the infiltrators deployment step.

Edit: I disagree with you on this part. Since infiltration is still considered part of deployment and ICs can be deployed with a unit, this allows Shadowsun's chosen unit to deploy with her after everything else.

Re-read the deployment rules and the IC rules.
Your assertion here is incorrect.

 acekevin8412 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Nope, you have to deploy units separably. Since you can only join IC's to units by deploying them together on the board or by putting them in reserves together there is no opportunity to slap both shadowsun and a unit that doesn't have infiltrate down onto the board during the infiltrators deployment step.

Edit: I disagree with you on this part. Since infiltration is still considered part of deployment and ICs can be deployed with a unit, this allows Shadowsun's chosen unit to deploy with her after everything else.

Incorrect, according to how ICs actually join units.

They join a unit by being placed in coherency with the unit. Now find a rule allowing your non-infiltrating unit to be placed on the table during the Ini=filtrate step, when they only have permission to either deploy normally or be held in reserves

Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

Yes, this works. You can also Infiltrate Shadowsun with the unit near to Farsight, provided you declare that he is being deployed as a separate unit - the rule stating you must keep him at least 2" away if you don't intend to join only applies at the end of your Movement phase. However, this means he can be picked on if you don't get first turn, and also means your Infiltrators wouldn't exactly be that far away from your deployment zone.

Remember that joining a unit happens at the end of your Movement phase as well. There isn't a way to actually deploy Farsight in the same unit as Shadowsun, as deploying Infiltrators still takes place during deployment (the time that Farsight is specifically prohibited from deploying with the unit), but the two examples above give a kind of workaround.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

No, as you have no permission to Infiltrate the Bodyguard, until Shadowsun joins

Shadowsun is ONLY able to join AFTER you have already deployed the Bodyguard

So you MUST place the bodyguard on the table *first*, during normal deployment. Meanign you cannot pick them up again to Infiltrate them later on in deployment.

If you disagree please provide proof that the rules on ICs joining units at the start of the gae does not apply here.

well, I guess that answers that question. Only thing left to do is have Shadowsun join the unit in reserve and DS the whole group in on turn 2+. Here is a question for ya though, if shadowsun can take a bodyguard group is she not able to automatically be part of that group before the game even starts? So instead of a stealth+shrouded 7 suit bodyguard unit, you'd only have a 3 suit bodyguard unit. How does that work?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

No, as you have no permission to Infiltrate the Bodyguard, until Shadowsun joins

Shadowsun is ONLY able to join AFTER you have already deployed the Bodyguard

So you MUST place the bodyguard on the table *first*, during normal deployment. Meaning you cannot pick them up again to Infiltrate them later on in deployment.

If you disagree please provide proof that the rules on ICs joining units at the start of the game does not apply here.

First I want to thank everyone for their responses. I think I have a better understanding of the rules now.
Second, going by your ruling, doesn't that make a normal bodyguard on Shadowsun mostly useless unless for the intents of deployment?

Thinking about it, those rules are probably written that way to prevent shenanigans like that from happening, could you imagine being able to put shadowsun in a unit of broadsides and having the option to deploy them last on your enemies flank! It makes sense as far as game mechanics go.

 acekevin8412 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

No, as you have no permission to Infiltrate the Bodyguard, until Shadowsun joins

Shadowsun is ONLY able to join AFTER you have already deployed the Bodyguard

So you MUST place the bodyguard on the table *first*, during normal deployment. Meaning you cannot pick them up again to Infiltrate them later on in deployment.

If you disagree please provide proof that the rules on ICs joining units at the start of the game does not apply here.

First I want to thank everyone for their responses. I think I have a better understanding of the rules now.
Second, going by your ruling, doesn't that make a normal bodyguard on Shadowsun mostly useless unless for the intents of deployment?

Infiltrate also grants Outflank which you could make use of.

rigeld2 wrote:

 acekevin8412 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Could you infiltrate Farsight's bodyguard unit with Shadow Sun and just keep Farsight separate? DS him with a 3 man Xv8 squad in next to the other unit once they get into trouble? Or just swap the bodyguard units, seeing as how Shadowsun may still take a 3 man squad as well?

No, as you have no permission to Infiltrate the Bodyguard, until Shadowsun joins

Shadowsun is ONLY able to join AFTER you have already deployed the Bodyguard

So you MUST place the bodyguard on the table *first*, during normal deployment. Meaning you cannot pick them up again to Infiltrate them later on in deployment.

If you disagree please provide proof that the rules on ICs joining units at the start of the game does not apply here.

First I want to thank everyone for their responses. I think I have a better understanding of the rules now.
Second, going by your ruling, doesn't that make a normal bodyguard on Shadowsun mostly useless unless for the intents of deployment?

Infiltrate also grants Outflank which you could make use of.

My thoughts exactly...

Just read a similar question posted on the AdvancedTauTactica which brought up a good question.

By the arguments listed here, SM Captain Shrike can't infiltrate units despite his rule conferring it to attached units because he can't attach with them to use infiltrate in the first place.

IMO, GW needs to FAQ whether or not ICs can join units before before deployment.

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Just read a similar question posted on the AdvancedTauTactica which brought up a good question.

By the arguments listed here, SM Captain Shrike can't infiltrate units despite his rule conferring it to attached units because he can't attach with them to use infiltrate in the first place.

IMO, GW needs to FAQ whether or not ICs can join units before before deployment.

Yeah, I think there was a very long (and contentious) thread about that- the "obvious RAI" vs the RAW regarding Shrike- a while ago... Searchy might turn it up... And you have already, without even seeing it, summarized the gist of it...

So I guess I should just in form my opponents and flip a coin. Either that or run Shadowsun solo.

Shadowsun should be rolling with Stealth Suits; Stealth suits have Infiltrate.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
well, I guess that answers that question. Only thing left to do is have Shadowsun join the unit in reserve and DS the whole group in on turn 2+. Here is a question for ya though, if shadowsun can take a bodyguard group is she not able to automatically be part of that group before the game even starts? So instead of a stealth+shrouded 7 suit bodyguard unit, you'd only have a 3 suit bodyguard unit. How does that work?

The new codex allows you to get a bodyguard unit for each of your commanders, however there is no requirement for the commander to be part of the bodyguard unit. This is also true for Shadowsun and Farsight.

The bodyguard unit is a separate HQ choice that doesn't count towards your limit. Its basically a mechanism to allow more Crisis suit squads in suit heavy armies that also want to utilise riptides and Stealthsuits.

Interestingly, this line of logic where ICs cannot join units probably also invalidates the "Master of Manoeuvre" Warlord trait. RAW, I get the argument, but RAI its just silly.

MadmanMSU wrote:
Interestingly, this line of logic where ICs cannot join units probably also invalidates the "Master of Manoeuvre" Warlord trait. RAW, I get the argument, but RAI its just silly.

Not really, you can declare that IC's in reserve are joined to a unit in reserve (BRB, page 124, bottom left corner - and thus, only roll one dice to see if the combined unit arrive), so Outflank is a prefectly usable Warlord Trait.

Quanar wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Interestingly, this line of logic where ICs cannot join units probably also invalidates the "Master of Manoeuvre" Warlord trait. RAW, I get the argument, but RAI its just silly.

Not really, you can declare that IC's in reserve are joined to a unit in reserve (BRB, page 124, bottom left corner - and thus, only roll one dice to see if the combined unit arrive), so Outflank is a prefectly usable Warlord Trait.

My bad. Thought you had to declare outflanking before they were put in reserve.

 acekevin8412 wrote:
Just read a similar question posted on the AdvancedTauTactica which brought up a good question.

By the arguments listed here, SM Captain Shrike can't infiltrate units despite his rule conferring it to attached units because he can't attach with them to use infiltrate in the first place.

IMO, GW needs to FAQ whether or not ICs can join units before before deployment.

This was the situation in 5th as well and they FAQed to allowed it. That FAQ didn't stick around.
Intent could go either way on this one - Infiltration still allows Outflank (can't remember if it did in 5th or not and don't care enough to find my BRB from 5th).

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

No, it really doesn't. When do you deploy outflankers?

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

Yes, it would seem to suggest that, and many think that is RAI enough to justify playing it that way. There are just as many people who think that the RAW does not support this and that until GW FAQs it specifically, you can't attach an IC to a non-infiltrating unit and infiltrate with it/them. If you search you will probably find the very long thread that discussed this issue ad nauseum...

rigeld2 wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

No, it really doesn't. When do you deploy outflankers?

During deployment (as per the outflank rule, page 40). When does Shrike join the unit? Before deployment (as per the FAQ i quoted above)

rigeld2 wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

No, it really doesn't. When do you deploy outflankers?

As you deploy your unit from outflanking reserve.

So during deployment you set Unit X to reserves. At this point you declare any special rules used in reserves(deepstrike, or outflank, or any other rules declared at this step).

You then attach unit Y, with IC and Infiltrate USR to unit X.

It is too late for Unit X to Out flank(without additional rules/allowances)

ItsPug wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

No, it really doesn't. When do you deploy outflankers?

During deployment (as per the outflank rule, page 40). When does Shrike join the unit? Before deployment (as per the FAQ i quoted above)

No, you declare outflankers during deployment.
You deploy them when they move onto the board. Because they deploy from reserves.

rigeld2 wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ItsPug wrote:

Codex Space Marine FAQ, page 3 wrote:Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule

This would seem to suggest that you can announce a character is joining a unit and infiltrate both.

No, it really doesn't. When do you deploy outflankers?

During deployment (as per the outflank rule, page 40). When does Shrike join the unit? Before deployment (as per the FAQ i quoted above)

No, you declare outflankers during deployment.
You deploy them when they move onto the board. Because they deploy from reserves.

Deploying and deployment are not neccessarily the same thing, otherwise I could combat squad when I enter from reserve, but Combat Squads must be done before working out how many units I can reserve.