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auticus wrote:

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

We shouldn't, the same way we absolutely, under no circumstances, should encourage knee-jerk banning stuff.

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

Actually that's because SS is only a hard counter for Reserves lists, with the exception of Daemons, they didn't counter much else (Drop pod armies at the time weren't especially prevalent at tournaments, and blood angels simply jump packed instead if they saw this) Not to mention Purifier armies and Paladins points denial happened more because of practicality.

This seems like it has far more practical application against daemons, and a fair number of actual armies instead. As in this is a cheap thing that'll go in Every High Elf List. As you can equip it to any squad you desire.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

auticus wrote:

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

We shouldn't, the same way we absolutely, under no circumstances, should encourage knee-jerk banning stuff.

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

The fact that you and others keep saying, "just chaff it/re-direct it" proves you haven't read the Daemon book and don't have any real idea of how Daemons work now.

Notice it's not just a couple Daemons players crying out loud, with a few more level-headed Daemon players offing suggestions to 'fix' the problem...
When pretty much every single Daemon player is saying the exact same thing, and giving reletively the same reasons for why our army is royally screwed over by this one banner, odds are it's likely very true.

And please, no more useless comments about how we can "just thunderstomp the unit into oblivion" (getting really tired of people stupidly suggesting that one...)

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

I'll explain this one more time. Not trying to be an ass but i've said this a few times already in this thread to explain why chaff and redirecting doesn't work and it appears no one is reading it or is just dismissing it.

2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent. Puts 1500 points of his 2000 point into a white lion unit along with Teclis/Aierele/level 4, a supporting level 2, and a BSB. This is 1500 points that the demon player largely cannot get to to score. This can be used offensively but I would not use this offensively. This is a *defensive* bunker that is used to lock 1500 points of the 2000 points away.

Warhammer is a game won largely by scoring more points than the opponent. We can all agree on this point I'm sure.

The demon player has to score the 500 remaining points. He absolutely needs to do that at a bare minimum. He also needs to not give up 500 points of his own. If the high elf player scores 500 points (a demon unit and a character) then the best the demon player gets is a draw. If the high elf player scores 600 or more points, the high elf player wins.

Chaffe/redirect is useless in this because the white lion unit is not looking to even move. Its looking to get into range of its nasty #6 spells and start unleashing hell at the most expensive and nasty demon unit that it can to score what it needs to win and then sit back. If the demon player throws chaffe at it, the high elf player ignores it. Better yet would be if the demon player actually charges the high elf unit with the chaffe because he's essentially wiped his ass with 200 some odd points and made the high elf player's life easier in achieving the 600 points he needs to gain.

Now chaffe / redirects are marginally useful against things like a dragon prince unit coming full balls out to charge through the demon army but that's not the scenario that is the demon army killer. The scenario is locking away the majority of your points in a bunker that has its armor save plus a 2+ ward save against ANYTHING the demon player does and then sitting back on it and plink as many points as it can off of the demon player to exceed the amount of points that is not protected by the mat ward save.

No chaffe or redirect units in the world will do anything to this unit because this unit is not interested in charging out. Chaffe / redirect units are used to attempt to circumvent units attempting to maul you in combat.

Another thing that this unit can do is actively engage the chaffe while its wizards blow a hole in another unit as the demonic chaffe units are all going to be expensive so that will help score the minimal points needed to secure a victory. Redirect or not. Plus with things life free reform and leadership 9 on the white lions, redirecting is not going to do hamper it much at all. Also any casualties that you do manage to get through the armor save and then 2+ mat ward save will attempt to be brought back via life spells. Engaging this unit in combat is for the most part as far as I can see a complete waste of time and is doing nothing but handing points to your opponent.

To distill the issue for you:

Let's play a scenario where 75% of my army gets a 2+ mat ward save against anything you do.

Not a fan?

Let's play a scenario where I only need to score 600 points off of you to win.

Still not a fan?

I'm not a fan either. This is not the type of game i'm interested in playing. I'd rather find a new system that is less paper/rock/scissors and where mat ward is no where near the rules.

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

Realize that not everyone plays predominantly in a tournament enviornment where you show up with open lists to take on all comers.

Leagues
Campaigns
Open gaming at stores

These are all places where you know your opponent ahead of time and can list tailor. If I'm in a league and I'm matched up against a high elf player, I can't just not play him because he's a jerk. I mean likely if he shows up with that crap i'll shake his hand tell him great game and then give up the loss as opposed to giving up two hours of my life to a one sided contest but there are a ton of other avenues other than tournaments and all comers events that exist.

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

I enjoy the company of everyone I play against. However in a competitive league environment, there's nothing stopping the high elf players from securing an auto win to further their standings because that's what competitions are are they not? That doesn't make the person a bad person or someone that you should socially excommunicate, it means that they enjoy power gaming and are power gaming legally to get an easy win to further their standings because the rules let them do it.

Then you have places in the world where your gaming community might literally only be four or five people and you either play or you don't play.

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

WTF is wrong with people that keep saying that using this banner will somehow make your army worse against a lot of other armies?

WTF is with all these noobish selfish short sighted people that DO NOT SEE THE FETHING BIG PICTURE that this isnt exclusively a demon player problem but that it is bad for the entire whfb community when one army is a hard counter for another army?

auticus wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

I enjoy the company of everyone I play against. However in a competitive league environment, there's nothing stopping the high elf players from securing an auto win to further their standings because that's what competitions are are they not? That doesn't make the person a bad person or someone that you should socially excommunicate, it means that they enjoy power gaming and are power gaming legally to get an easy win to further their standings because the rules let them do it.

Then you have places in the world where your gaming community might literally only be four or five people and you either play or you don't play.

Then there's the fact that every single league or campaign I've ever seen my local stores run, tend to offer up prizes for the top finishers. (usually 1st/2nd/3rd)

When there is an actual monetary value on the line, feelings & not being a power-gaming tool tend to be the last things most people will think are that important...
Espeically when everyone has had to pay an entry fee to participate.

This is true. If there's a prize involved (and most leagues have a prize) then I don't see high elf players feeling bad for locking 3/4 of their army away from the demon opponent when they play him to get the auto-win.

JWhex wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

WTF is wrong with people that keep saying that using this banner will somehow make your army worse against a lot of other armies?

WTF is with all these noobish selfish short sighted people that DO NOT SEE THE FETHING BIG PICTURE that this isnt exclusively a demon player problem but that it is bad for the entire whfb community when one army is a hard counter for another army?

One army isn't a hard counter to another, an item is a hard counter for another army.

That 50 point banner the High elf player brought along. It does nothing to an Irongut Deathstar, or a brick of Saurus, or a Slave bus.

It also does nothing to protect against 6th spells or debuffs. Dwellers, Miasma, Mindrazor, etc... It does nothing to protect against them.


Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

It's not expensive. It's less than 2 ogres. 10 Empire swordsman.

And it does do something because if those stars and busses have any heroes, and they often do, their magic weapons have not only become ineffective, but an actual detriment.

Situational and expensive is the tower-thing from DoC. Because only a greater daemon can take it, it costs 75, he can't get anything else if he uses it, and it makes castles, wall by wall, which you may or may not find that useful.

As I sit here reading my new high elf book, I think to myself...

"Dear Nurgle Demon Player, who uses a magic item to pull Epidemius off the board and build his tally with 3+ regen 50 man block of Plaguebearers for 4 turns... I am pleased to introduce you to my Banner of the World Dragon and Pheonix Guard with 2+ vs spells and and a 3+ ward in combat as long as my wizard succeeds in with 1 spell."

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

You really damage your credibility by making silly statements like this. It is far from situational and why are you even bringing up spells that test off of initiative. You do know elves have high initiative right?

The only place where it will not see a ton of competitive play is in comped tournaments.

Why do you think a banner given to a regular std bearer that protects troopers against every magic weapon equipped hero and lord character is situational? Do you play mostly against idiots that dont use combat lords against rank and file to build combat resolution? A lot of dumb things have been said in this thread but saying the banner is "just situational" is up near the top of the bone head remark list.

It is not expensive and there is no army that would not use it every time, especially if they did not have to put it on the bsb.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
As I sit here reading my new high elf book, I think to myself...

"Dear Nurgle Demon Player, who uses a magic item to pull Epidemius off the board and build his tally with 3+ regen 50 man block of Plaguebearers for 4 turns... I am pleased to introduce you to my Banner of the World Dragon and Pheonix Guard with 2+ vs spells and and a 3+ ward in combat as long as my wizard succeeds in with 1 spell."

Epidemius is "not in play" if he is not on the board, if people are playing that trick then they are cheating. Also a 50 man block of PB is stupidly too large to use in an Epidemius list.

Also you dont seem to understand the item because you have a 2+ ward against any attacks from demons by the banner alone. Sometimes when you think to yourself its best to keep it to yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

I'll explain this one more time. Not trying to be an ass but i've said this a few times already in this thread to explain why chaff and redirecting doesn't work and it appears no one is reading it or is just dismissing it.

You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

For the umpteenth time +1, you dont need a giant death star, none of the people posting that have any brains have said that you do. It is only people like yourself, setting up straw man arguments that are talking about giant deathstars.

For me the beginning of 8th edition was like yesterday, it was 5th edition when the HE players started sucking with the broken army book, then they got better in 6th, we shall see what happens in 8th even though the previous Teclis was completely broken, which I suppose could explain some of the dumb tactics that have been posted.

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

For the umpteenth time +1, you dont need a giant death star, none of the people posting that have any brains have said that you do. It is only people like yourself, setting up straw man arguments that are talking about giant deathstars.

For me the beginning of 8th edition was like yesterday, it was 5th edition when the HE players started sucking with the broken army book, then they got better in 6th, we shall see what happens in 8th even though the previous Teclis was completely broken, which I suppose could explain some of the dumb tactics that have been posted.

If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the army.

Implying that no High Elf player knows how to play because Teclis was OP is just a staggering level of intellectual dishonesty. There's tons of people who are much better than I could ever hope to be that thrived with the old book without taking Teclis or Book of Hoeth, people who won against Death Stars they couldn't touch. You're coming across as incredibly abrasive, arrogant and, frankly, like an ass. There's not going to be any constructive work done as long as you insist on insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the arm

Sigh, I will explain the problem, in the most patient and polite way, once you have read this thread in its entirety. The problem has been explained by more than one poster already. So after you go back and carefully reread the thread, post here and I will do my best to explain it again.

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the arm

Sigh, I will explain the problem, in the most patient and polite way, once you have read this thread in its entirety. The problem has been explained by more than one poster already. So after you go back and carefully reread the thread, post here and I will do my best to explain it again.

Mate, get over yourself. If you can't be arsed replying to him, don't reply at all. This isn't world-weary-philosophers'-corner here.

Indeed.

If you cannot maintain a civil tone when conversing with other users then it's best that you don't post at all.

There's no need for the cheap shots and digs.

JWhex wrote:
Epidemius is "not in play" if he is not on the board, if people are playing that trick then they are cheating. Also a 50 man block of PB is stupidly too large to use in an Epidemius list.

Epidemius rules state: "Whilst Epidemius is alive..." RAW, I believe once the game begins there's only one condition that disqualifies that, and that is being dead. Sitting inside a portalglyph he's certainly not dead.

That said, it's a 75pt item on a 375pt (minimum) model. On top of Epidemius' 200pt cost. So it's not exactly cheap to do that. It's 650pts just to try it and have no benefit. You actually need a buttload of other nurgle units to make it worthwhile and your 200pt hero doesn't get to contribute other than his (very helpful) bonuses. If you're going to basically have him afk, you could spend way less points on some MC and bunker him in that and at least have the chance to do/soak some damage.

That's a true "situational" buff. Because it's 200pts flat out removed from your side and not helping in combat. +75 for the portal which only contains Epidemius. The GD who holds the portal is also short-changed because he only has a max of 25 pts to spend on stuff to help him. And the buffs apply to ALL nurgle units, friend or foe, in the game. Try and compare a banner to that.

JWhex wrote:
You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

I never mentioned chaff, blew off the implications of the banner in actual competitive play, or failed to read a post in a thread I have posted in.

In fact, nothing you posted seems to be related to my actual post - did you read it?

Again, if you build a crazy deathstar that can curb stomp deamons, it will probably work. Against Daemons.
It will not be horrible against other armies, but mostly it will be a problem because you tailored a list to fight deamons.

The banner will probably be a ubiquitous choice and one that causes daemons more issues than most people.
The deathstar issue with most of the army in one unit that is immune* to daemons is in the land of tailored lists, pick-up-game jerks, and longshot tourney players (as it is NOT a take-all-comers viable list).


* This is literally wrong and used by people that are trying for emotion rather than truth.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

From my perspective let me make it quite clear that the issue is not in tournaments because in tournaments this list would get destroyed. There are, however, other viable ways of playing that don't involve tournaments that involve knowing your opponent ahead of time (campaigns, leagues, open games) that now require a social contract to exist between a demon player and a high elf player which is the root of my problem. I shouldn't have to ask Bob to not bring the banner and deathstar his white lions and the everqueen/teclis in it with the bsb to play points denial. And on top of that Bob may be of the opinion that if its legal then its perfectly fine and suck it up. That's not a game that I enjoy or want to play in from either side of the fence. I have three other fantasy armies that I'll use against high elves. My demons will stay home and as Wardhammer appears to be creeping back into the game I am looking at other systems to jump to until he's gone.

Paper/rock/scissors is not how i want my wargames to play. I want the rules to enforce some kind of balance. It doesn't have to be perfect balance, but i will not play in a game where a hard counter to another force exists to the extent that this banner does to demons. In 40k the grey knights are the equivalent to demons. No one enjoys those games either except the grey knights player saying "what... its legal... deal with it"

auticus wrote:
that now require a social contract

This is the part that baffles me.

How is this a new thing?!?

That scenario is already a reality for many other armies though, the game hasn't ended for them. For example, as a High Elf player, there's not much I can do against a Gutstar with Runemaw other than ignore it and try to work around it or hope that I built a list around Death magic so I can Purple Sun it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

White Lions, Phoenix Guard or Dragon Princes are the 3 units most likely to take the BotWD;
a) Lions are base S4, so already Dwellers is less of an issues because it only kills on average 33% of the unit, meaning that Slaan needs to cast it 3 times. The first 6-dice attempt he'll likely pass the miscast off due to Cupped Hands. The next two, he's running a huge risk of exploding his unit.
Lions also get the helpful +2 to their armour save vs shooting, so most of the war machines that can hurt them like Empire Mortars are again, reduced in their effectiveness. The only really scary war machine to them are Bret Trebs and O&G Rock Lobbas/Doom Divers and a grape-shooting Ogre cannon.

b) Phoenix Guard will simply be a purely pts denial build. A single High Magic spell cast by a mage in their unit means they now have a 3++. A proper supportive Lv4, (ie: Life Mage) will buff the unit to the nines. Sure they may not be killing much, but it's almost certainly pts that most opponents will not be able to take from the High Elf player, unless the dice betray someone rather badly...
Sure, Dwellers is more beneficial here, because the PG without Beast magic are only S3, but the problem then becomes, if you're in range to Dwellers the elves, they're in range to Dwellers you right back! And let's face it, that means that only other High Elves, (amuzingly enough), Lizardmen, Empire, Brets & Wood Elves have an easy counter to it... And two of those armies aren't exactly popular competitive armies now are they?!
The real winner here is adding in Teclis due to how you can completely tailor his spells to perfectly suit the unit. The question then simply becomes, 'what buffs need to go off against opponent X/Y/Z'

c) Dragon Princes are likely to become the initial popular choice IMHO because they combine speed, (being cavalry and potentially getting Ithilmar Barding), high armour saves and hitting power with multiple S5 attacks on the charge.
Giving them an instant near-immunity to almost all magical damage is a no-brainer. They can hit their intended targets with impunity due to their greater speed and thus pick the fights they really want where their shiny banner will give them the biggest advantage, while again removing alot of the counters that would have given them fits.



No one is trying to say, "OMG! BotWD = High Elves auto-win Tournament now lolz!!1!11!!!!1!"

What's attempting to be said, (and largely ignored), is that the banner is promoting;
a) Even more Deathstars - and good ones at that!
Meaning, more people will simply resort to yet more boring-@$$ spaming of the 2 main #6 spells that will auto-kill 33-50% of the unit depending on who's hiding it. Yay fun!

b) It's outright removing an entire subset of the game - namely, offensive magic and fighty characters. (who are already a rather rare sight and don't need anymore nerfing!)
Sure, some armies like Chaos Warriors or Vampire Counts don't need their Lords to carry magic weapons to be mass-murdering maniacs. But most armies do need their fighty characters to take a magic weapon to be effective. (ie: everyone else who only gets basic S4 Lords/Heroes and/or 3-4 attack Lords!)
What's even more galing, not only can High Elves render an entire unit almost immune to pretty much every combat character in the game, but they can still keep their own tooled-up fighters at the same time!
So again, dealing with a HE player who shoves their expensive T3 characters into a Banner unit means that we're back to most people just going back to 6-dicing the #6 spells and hoping for the best... Yay, more boring fun!

c) It's hard-countering 2 entire armies, and pretty much removing the shooting phase of 3 others, while also making direct damage spells even more scarce...
When people are already leaving Fantasy because they're sick and tired of deathstars and hexing to death/6-dicing the killer spells, promoting even more of that is bad for the game itself!
High Elves likely showing up to events means opponents will be thus tailoring their lists in order to better deal with it. (ie: Lv4 wizard + Lv2 + D.Scoll/Feedback Scroll & Lore of Life/Metal/Shadow) So now we're going to see even less varriation in lists, because no one wants to run into this new broken item and be unable to deal with it.
Armies like Dwarfs will have to actually make their strongest options, (ie: their runic shooting phases), worse just to deal with a banner unit.
VC's now have almost no offensive magic phase and no shooting AND their main combat character/s also can't take magic weapons anymore!
Skaven lose out almost their entire shooting phase and again, almost all of their offensive magic. (leaving them to either Dreaded 13th or Wither-Wither-laugh!)

It's just outright BAD because it's not promoting varriation, but rather simply keeping us all on the current path of stagnation because people will;
- Take the banner and abuse it.
- Build hard-counters into their lists to prepare for the threat of facing the banner.

How is this something we should be greatful for or encouraged by?
8th had been doing a fairly decent job up until these last couple of releases at trying to really promote more varried play. WoC took a step back by keeping 3++ and adding a re-roll 1's, DoC is just plain crap and likely the worst internally balanced book of all time, and now HE's are looking set to begin a brand new arms race.

JWhex wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

You really damage your credibility by making silly statements like this. It is far from situational and why are you even bringing up spells that test off of initiative. You do know elves have high initiative right?

The only place where it will not see a ton of competitive play is in comped tournaments.

Why do you think a banner given to a regular std bearer that protects troopers against every magic weapon equipped hero and lord character is situational? Do you play mostly against idiots that dont use combat lords against rank and file to build combat resolution? A lot of dumb things have been said in this thread but saying the banner is "just situational" is up near the top of the bone head remark list.

It is not expensive and there is no army that would not use it every time, especially if they did not have to put it on the bsb.

Dwellers is a strength test. And yes it is situational. It does nothing against non-magical attacks or spells that disallow saves.

You can still be debuffed to uselessness and against a unit that doesn't have magic attacks you have a 50 point banner of nothing.

There are only a few armies that use combat lords to get combat resolution, the majority rely on the RnF to do the actual fighting.


This banner will counter a Red Fury Vampire, Doombull, and a tooled up Chaos Lord. And daemons of course. Other armies won't care so much. They'll fight the unit just like any other deathstar.

Its hardly a broken item.

Yeah, my Ogres, VCs, and Chaos Dwarfs are not impressed. Elves are nice and squishy. Pity the DoC players though; go heavy tzeench? You'll just have to throw enough wounds on those T3 squishies that your opponent throws ones. Personally, the DoC 5+ vs. everything annoys me so I don't mind DoC players being a little butthurt.

Thought. I haven't played the new DoC but do they still have the leadership crushing spells that circumvent MR by being "entire battlefield"?

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
that now require a social contract

This is the part that baffles me.

How is this a new thing?!?

If i have to ask my opponent to not bring a backline of queens to our chess match because he is allowed but i am not, that is a very poor game.

For those saying the banner isnt broken, i can assume then that you would be cool with playing scenarios where your opponent can potentially put 3/4 of his army with a 2+ save against anything you can do?

Wardhammer paper rock scissors spamming #6 spell six dicing and points denial make this game a sorry joke imo. Stuff like this makes it worse.