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Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

auticus wrote:


I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Sadly, this.

I play an army (Dark Elves) considered (rightly) to have elements which are undercosted for what they can do, with Hydras, Sacrificial Dagger and the Pendant of Khaeleth right at the top. However these choices don't provide almost total immunity against an entire army to a whole unit. Admittedly our magic can be ridiculous with huge potential for power dice generation and no limit on the number of dice to cast a spell. Sure it's fun for me to watch my Corsairs butcher an entire horde of pretty much anything thanks to Mindrazor (had a unit of 28 Corsairs go through 3 units of Chaos Warriors with Mark of Tzeentch in a tournament once, had 4 Corsairs left at the end of the game but they were still Frenzied) but that isn't fun to play against, especially not in a casual game. So with that in mind sometimes I take a Level 4 Dark Sorceress instead. Sure the lore is still powerful but it's less of an "I win" button than Mindrazor.

If anything the people using the Banner should be the ones to "l2p". If they're such tactical and strategic masters as to judge other peoples abilities in the game then surely they could win without it? Why not test their abilities to the fullest rather than take the easy option?

auticus wrote:

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

Sadly this is oh so true, at least in general.
I will say though that for every person who thinks like this, there's at least one who doesn't give a flying rat's fart and will steer clear of the broken crap.

Myself, I gave-up on the tournament scene a few years ago because it was just nothing but the above mentality all around... First High Elf players laughing it up with their super-ASF, then VC players bragging about how godly their new book was with it's pts denial style of play, then the Daemon bandwagon that was then followed by Dark Elves, Lizzies and then WoC shinanigans.
Just made me sick to see nothing but massive trolling going on in an effort to simply win at all costs...



Instead of giving up Warhammer though, I now simply play Fantasy with a couple of friends.

One of them for example plays Wood Elves, and what we've done is simply said, 'all Forest Spirits have a 5+ ward save.' Now he has the tools to play close fought games even against VC's or Daemons.
Likewise, when he borrowed my new Daemon book to give it a read through, he simply laughed after giving it back to me and said, 'just use your real book and f*** this crap!', because I was never abusive with the old book anyways... (I play mono-Tzeentch and always used a Loremaster Fire Daemon Prince under the 7th ed book, while only using a Life Tzherald on occasion because it just became so boring otherwise)

Doing this, we still have a group of about 4-5 of us who can still readily enjoy playing Fantasy, and we can simply ignore all the non-sense and silliness of Boringhammer being filled up with Gutstars, unkillable Nurgle Princes, Scream spam, Slaanstars, 6-dicing FTW #6 spells, new Skill Banner, etc...

If anything the people using the Banner should be the ones to "l2p". If they're such tactical and strategic masters as to judge other peoples abilities in the game then surely they could win without it? Why not test their abilities to the fullest rather than take the easy option?

The easy option gives you golden trophies, espn sponsorships, nerd illustrated cover shots, and the knowledge that you can gloat online about how great you are while people over the internet sing your praises.

The difficult option gives you the internal satisfaction of knowing you played a harder game and did well, but likely won't give you the glittering trophies and the chicks and the nerd illustrated covers.

Easy mode also gets you gold plated shark tanks.

I love gold plated shark tanks.

When they are saying "l2p", it is code for "its my turn to have an army that has broken things in it", which contradicts the arguments for how we want a balanced game. We don't. (I am being very general here yes I know there are people that want balance). Those same people would be pooping their diapers if say the skill banner never existed and then the dark elves came out with a golden cod piece that gave it and its unit a 2++ ward save against anything the high elves could do to them (and rightfully so, something like that is not fun or entertaining unless you are on the right side of it) and those same people would never in their wildest dreams acknowledge to play in a scenario where one of their opponent's units and all of the characters within got a 2+ ward against anything they could do, but they are happy to dance around and chuckle when they can do it.

And what do many people do when their army gets the demon treatment? They shelve their army and pick up one of the broken ones so that they can "win". That's why 40k is full of necron and grey knights players. Fantasy is doing better as its factions seem for the most part to be even but you don't see a lot of the low tier armies ever because no one wants to play a game that challenges them, they want as easy a time as possible winning.

auticus wrote:

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with.

This is all gaming of all kinds. It is well-documented that people follow sports teams that are more successful. Yankees, Lakers, Arsenal, ManU. When their fortunes change you see the fair weather fans leave.

One of my first rules as a programmer I came up with was, "don't rely on your users for the integrity of your systems." Because if users have a way to cheat or make it 1% faster even if it completely breaks what they are using, they will do it. And some of my earliest online gaming, people would use bots and hacks of all kinds. I could never understand why someone would use an aimbot hack where they aren't even playing. They are sitting there as a spectator in their own game. But the point was, they were "winning." And that's good enough for a lot of people. Even if it completely ruins the game.

As for the banner, I was looking through DoC last night and I think the one "strategy" that can pretty much always beat it is simply Kairos. Using the Light/Heavens/Life/Metal head + Tz. You can potentially drop 2 mega spells on him a turn and do other nasty stuff like cast Net of Am and Glean Magic. Concentrating on Life you can heal yourself and you have a reroll. Put a bunch of Screamers or Beasts or such in front of you and you're immune to cannons. Blue scribes, changeling, herald and a few horror units will give you some channel dice. It's kind of boring, but it's trying to counter a boring build.

That is very true and good points. You only hear about the sports teams from people whose teams are doing very well. That doesn't surprise me that that follows into wargaming or any type of gaming really.

auticus wrote:
That is very true and good points. You only hear about the sports teams from people whose teams are doing very well. That doesn't surprise me that that follows into wargaming or any type of gaming really.

Leafs Nation will always disagree with you on that one!
46 years of losing (or outright laughing stock of the entire league), and yet, their arena is still packed every single home game...

I guess that makes those of us who loyally stick by our chosen army even when we're not full of filthy, broken combos distant cousins or something?!

lol it makes you not the average sports fan.

I know where I am from (rabid college basketball country) that everyone is a basketball fan when the teams are doing well and when they are not doing well you hear not a peep.

Also we seem to have a lot of New England Patriots fans and I live very far away from Boston...

I've played chaos pretty much non stop since 2000 even when they weren't the best so I understand what it is to stick by your army. I am also a Miami Dolphins fan since 1984... and if you know anything about NFL football the Dolphins havent been a relevant team since the 80s.

auticus wrote:

I've played chaos pretty much non stop since 2000 even when they weren't the best so I understand what it is to stick by your army. I am also a Miami Dolphins fan since 1984... and if you know anything about NFL football the Dolphins havent been a relevant team since the 80s.

The Dolphins aren't epic enough though to have the luxury of their team name poetically describing their situation, unlike;
Lossers
Even
After
Forty-six
Seasons
(mind you, this only works until 59, after which, we're pooped!)

Now to come up something equally as witty to describe Daemons and our current book...

auticus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

Umm I post on Ulthuan.net and am yet to see any l2p threads gloating at our newfound op-ness. Afaik ulthuan is the premier WFB high elf forum so if there aren't posts on the subject there then where? The only crutch anyone over there is talking about is the 7th ed re-rolls on GW that has just been kicked out from under us lol. Now I'm not defending the use of BotWD against daemons but insinuating that a particular online community has nothing better to do than sit around revelling in their superiority in one particular match-up is frankly insulting and puerile, especially when it isn't actually happening, sure some elf generals who have learned to re direct and out manoeuvre things that would crush them in a straight up fight are suggesting that daemon players look for other methods before shouting cheese, but I assure you the forum has better things to discuss than daemons players and how much we can now own them! In fact most people are saying that a BotWD deathstar v daemons is bad play and shouldn't be taken.

You must not have read the 30 pages here or 40 pages elsewhere, but there are a huge number of posts that are variations of l2p or [use simplistic tactic that doesn't work].

An all HE forum (or all DoC or all Ogre) forum isn't going to be complaining that they are OP. I don't think I've ever seen that in any game in any decade I've been alive. It's pretty traditional to go to a subcommunity and hear complaints. Like the OH NO rerolls on GW. Which is like a Tyrannosaurus armed with missiles complaining he kills things too fast and can't enjoy hunting anymore.

Ok deamon players please explain why the banner cant be redirected?

Yes if someone puts all there points in one unit that unit is going to be impossible to get points out of it but no one is going to take that in a TAC list.

WEs players dont cry about the storm banner and dwarves can shut down magic phases with ease but no one seems to care about those.

There are no WE players. Dwarfs can't shut down armies. If they could shut down 5/6ths of an army's dmg, then yeah, people would complain. But the most magic-y Lizardman army is still going to have a ton of dmg.

It's been stated a lot of times. But they are going to make a really solid banner unit. Because remember, it is essentially immune to heroes and magic dmg. When they see it's doc, they will put nearly every hero there they can. This unit then becomes a really big, unkillable Temple Guard, multiple Slann unit. Except TG are total wusses compared to the guys there and while the casters might not be as good as Slann, you can't hurt them.

If the banner bunker does nothing except throw spells at you and occasionally smush some unit you couldn't pull away, it's still going to do tremendous damage and take almost nothing.

Also, ignoring all the other lores they can take, Walk Between Worlds lets them go Ethereal, ignore terrain, and move a pretty giant distance. So they can put themselves pretty much where they want.

<---Plays Wood Elves

And dwarves seem to do really well at shutting down folks magic phases or as close as you can come to it.

And while I agree about walk between worlds (thats the real cheese in the book iimo) I guess that it is going to be the spell you save dice for and the one the HEs use to draw out dice.

Its never been hard to hide mages by simply jumping from unit to unit (and the abuse of that rule is one of my pet hates) so I dont really see the threat of magic missiles as a big one since most DoC players have already abused me once claiming the cant fit chaff it in any decent sort of list so a few magic misslies on a 40-50 strong units cant be that scary surely?

I am just not convinced it going to be an auto game over for DoC against a competive HE TAC list with the banner, sure a tailored list is going to wreck face but tailored list always have =)

 Jubear wrote:
Ok deamon players please explain why the banner cant be redirected?

Yes if someone puts all there points in one unit that unit is going to be impossible to get points out of it but no one is going to take that in a TAC list.

WEs players dont cry about the storm banner and dwarves can shut down magic phases with ease but no one seems to care about those.

Dwarfs can't unanimously shut down a magic phase. Yeah, if they take a lot of spelleater/spellbreaker runes and a lot of smiths they can do it reliably, but that's only a single facet of most armies and irresistible force still exists.

The Storm Banner is no where even close to the caliber of BotWD in a high-point unit. It affects BOTH armies and has a 50% of ending on each player's turn every turn after the first it's used. Not even close to a 2++ after normal saves, etc. against every attack a demon player has AND any magic they have that doesn't disallow saves.

At 50 points, making a unit nigh-immune to most characters and tons of magic spells, including all warpstone weapons, etc. there's no reason not to take that banner in a TAC list, especially since it doesn't even have to be the BSB carrying it.

Ugly Green Trog wrote: In fact most people are saying that a BotWD deathstar v daemons is bad play and shouldn't be taken.

LOL, why not?

Jubear wrote:<---Plays Wood Elves

I think you missed the point...

 epy346 wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
Ok deamon players please explain why the banner cant be redirected?

Yes if someone puts all there points in one unit that unit is going to be impossible to get points out of it but no one is going to take that in a TAC list.

WEs players dont cry about the storm banner and dwarves can shut down magic phases with ease but no one seems to care about those.

Dwarfs can't unanimously shut down a magic phase. Yeah, if they take a lot of spelleater/spellbreaker runes and a lot of smiths they can do it reliably, but that's only a single facet of most armies and irresistible force still exists.

The Storm Banner is no where even close to the caliber of BotWD in a high-point unit. It affects BOTH armies and has a 50% of ending on each player's turn every turn after the first it's used. Not even close to a 2++ after normal saves, etc. against every attack a demon player has AND any magic they have that doesn't disallow saves.

At 50 points, making a unit nigh-immune to most characters and tons of magic spells, including all warpstone weapons, etc. there's no reason not to take that banner in a TAC list, especially since it doesn't even have to be the BSB carrying it.

Agreed about the dwarfs but my point was other armies have access to certain items that for a small (well alot for dwarves) investment can make fighting them difficult.

And to clarify I was not claiming the storm banner was of the same power level as the BoTWD my point was that the storm banner is still a hard counter to a certain style of army and people deal with it in time. In a cut throat tourny environment a DoC player will most likely see the banner if he plays against HEs what he wont see is a huge purpose built banner death star. 40 PG or WLs is still incredibly expensive points wise and to be honest not that great. its going to be a tough match up and for sure the HE player is going to dump all his characters in the banner unit but you will still have things to fight and get points from.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

auticus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

Umm I post on Ulthuan.net and am yet to see any l2p threads gloating at our newfound op-ness. Afaik ulthuan is the premier WFB high elf forum so if there aren't posts on the subject there then where? The only crutch anyone over there is talking about is the 7th ed re-rolls on GW that has just been kicked out from under us lol. Now I'm not defending the use of BotWD against daemons but insinuating that a particular online community has nothing better to do than sit around revelling in their superiority in one particular match-up is frankly insulting and puerile, especially when it isn't actually happening, sure some elf generals who have learned to re direct and out manoeuvre things that would crush them in a straight up fight are suggesting that daemon players look for other methods before shouting cheese, but I assure you the forum has better things to discuss than daemons players and how much we can now own them! In fact most people are saying that a BotWD deathstar v daemons is bad play and shouldn't be taken.

The whole nerd rage thread on ulthuan is filled with l2p newb gloating and how its about time the demons were put in their place and how no one feels sorry for them being screwed over and they just need to learn to "redirect like everyone else lulz lulz lulz"

Unless the discussion changed since I last checked there, there were only a couple people saying the banner was broken against demons and the majority of the other posters were doing the epic lulz dance and guffawing about it and saying "redirect lulz redirect" which is the same as "l2p newb".

I've played some against the banner of skill now with my demons. Good luck redirecting an 18" moving dragon prince unit that can't be hurt. Its going to get where it wants to get with how the 8th edition rules work, reform and moving etc...

And then if the high elf player is going for the defensive bunker of skill, they aren't even trying to get into combat, just deny you points the whole game so redirecting isn't even an option as the bunker is in the back laying into you with magic and shooting hoping to square away 500 points or so to win (if the bunker is 3/4 of the army size with characters, it has 1/4 of its army that the demons can hurt and as such it need only score 1/4 of its army value to pull a tie off and +100 more than that to force a win).

This will be less of an issue in tournaments (where most demon players won't play demons anyway because demons aren't a powergaming list) and more of an issue with set games such as in leagues, campaigns, or open gaming nights where you know your opponent ahead of time.

The fallback "don't play those people then" may not be applicable in places with small warhammer populations or leagues where you pay money to play a set number of scheduled matches and there is a prize at the end.

To get around it we are using the tamurkhan list so demon players can just take warriors of chaos units and de skill the skill banner.

As to the storm banner, it is a hard counter to a style of play yes. But not hard counter in that it totally can negate an entire army for the entire game. It typically lasts for one turn, sometimes two, not the entire game. Its also not a 50 point banner you can slap onto a normal standard bearer for the lulz. If the storm banner was a 50 point banner that you could slap onto a stormvermin unit's banner that lasted the entire game, it would be the same type of skillful banner as the banner of immense skill is.

Spent some time at the local gaming shop this past weekend, and I got to see firsthand just how brutal a TAC's pts-denial style HE list is now... It was roughly;
- Lv4 w/Book of Hoeth + Shaodw
- Lv2 w/High Magic
- BSB on foot
- 10x Archers
- 3x 5 Reavers
- 9x Silverhelm bus
- 21x White Lions w/Skill Banner
- 25x Phoenix Guard
- 2x Frosthearts
- 2x Bolt Throwers

Not sure the total pts that was being played, but man, talk about resilient! Both mages sat in the PG unit and just went crazy with buffs and hexes, and can force through a surprising number of successful spells due to the Book of Hoeth on the Lv4.
Those Frosthearts handing out ASF & -1S are just downright mean, especially when supporting the HE's best damage output infantry unit and their best pts denial infantry. I saw a VC Black Knight bus w/Blender Lord simply bounce right off the WL's, (simply due to the banner as the Black Knights just couldn't kill enough even with the charge...) Next turn, the Frostheart joined the fray and it was just beyond silly how ineffective the Black Knights & characters became with only S3/4. The characters simply pop'ed in the end to combat res.

I don't think even a Daemon power list focuses around Eppi could take that list on as there's just so few 'easy' kills there to try and get the Tally going.

Suffice it to say, I'm not even entertaining the idea of playing against the local HE's until 9th edition (hopefully) removes their new book and the Skill Banner or hurp-durp L2p!lolz!!! and buries our sorry excuse piece of crap army book... (I play Tzeentch, so yes, our new book is pathetic!)

Or just do like me... I'm writing my own system using warhammer figs lol

No more Mat Ward for me

Hey all, I just wanted to add my thoughts to this.

I don't want this to sound like a l2p or anything disrespectful like that. Please take me at my word here. I mean this with all due respect.

Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

It is just one banner in one unit.

I mostly play Bretonnia. There are just some units I can't deal with at times with my all comers list. There are still ways to deal with the overall army and to win games. There are lots of mismatches in this game, that's kind've the way it works. I think it is a mistake to think that every all comers list should have the tools to take on anything in a straight up fight and win. I don't think you would have the rich variety of tactical match ups that are possible with the current state of the game.

I guess if I were to take on that unit with my Bretonnian list, I would rely on these sorts of tactics.

1. Feed the unit peasants and other garbage so that it doesn't really do anything.
2. Throw stones at it like crazy with my trebs.
3. Turn my prophetess into a Great Mountain Dragon or chimera or something stupid like that
4. Dwellers below will take care of the job
5. A combo charge from a couple of large lances not packing characters might have a chance - especially if I can hex the unit with curse of anraheir or iceshard blizzard.

I don't play daemons and have only done a cursory read of the army book, but I think there are tools to deal with a unit like this.

1. Aren't there chaff units in the daemon book? I think those would be pretty useful
2. Do you have access to spells like the dwellers below? I thought Nurgle had some nasty toughness test spells
3. Okkam's Mindrazor does not make the attacks magical. Any unit packing that will do some damage. Do you have any units at all that do not do magical attacks to start with?
4. The unit will still suffer from hex spells.
5. Do you have access to anything that destroys magic items?
6. Are your chariot impact hits considered to be magical? If not, impact hits really hurt the pointy ears

It is a powerful item, but I don't see a reason for all of this negativity. I think the old version was way more powerful. It made the unit that carried it completely immune to all magic.

 Atlantic wrote:

I don't play daemons and have only done a cursory read of the army book, but I think there are tools to deal with a unit like this.

1. Aren't there chaff units in the daemon book? I think those would be pretty useful
2. Do you have access to spells like the dwellers below? I thought Nurgle had some nasty toughness test spells
3. Okkam's Mindrazor does not make the attacks magical. Any unit packing that will do some damage.
4. The unit will still suffer from hex spells.
5. Do you have access to anything that destroys magic items?
6. Are your chariot impact hits considered to be magical? If not, impact hits really hurt the pointy ears

It is a powerful item, but I don't see a reason for all of this negativity. I think the old version was way more powerful. It made the unit that carried it completely immune to all magic.

1. Sure we have chaff... It only tends to cost an arm and a leg for the most part, and suffers from Daemonic Instability though.
2. The only way to get Dwellers is to take Kairos, who btw costs well over 500pts and is a physically neutered Greater Daemon stat-wise...
3. You know that wee bit about ALL Daemons having Magical Attacks as an army-wide rule? Yeah... Okkam's doesn't suddenly make that disappear.
4. When the unit has a 2++ save, it takes more than 1 Hex to swing the balance. Unless the HE player rolls horribly or is an idiot, getting 2-3 Hexes against a single unit is going to be 'challenging' to say the least.
5. Sure we do! We only need to take a Tzeentch wizard(s), who then only needs to randomly roll up Glean Magic... Then we need the High Elf player to roll up Arcane Unforging on one of their wizards... Then we can cast Glean and hope to randomly steal Arcane Unforging! Oh wait a sec... What's that about those million-to-one odds again?!
6. EVERYTHING! Daemons can do is a Magical Attack. Stomps, impact hits, shooting, combat - hell, even Nurgle's farts are magical in nature!

The old version still at least let us hit the unit! This new version is an absolute abomination of games design.

 Atlantic wrote:
It is a powerful item, but I don't see a reason for all of this negativity. I think the old version was way more powerful. It made the unit that carried it completely immune to all magic.

So the usual suspects don't have to say the same thing:

The banner doesn't make the unit completely immune to all magic; just immune to EVERY attack a Deamon player can make. Every unit in their army book has magical attacks. Impact hits, thunderstomp. etc. etc. 2+ ward save against everything.

Is it mathematically impossible to defeat the banner? no. Is the banner bad for the game? yes.

EDIT: Too slow.

 Atlantic wrote:
Hey all, I just wanted to add my thoughts to this.

It is just one banner in one unit.

Yeah, people are worried 70% of the points are gonna be in that unit.

1. Feed the unit peasants and other garbage so that it doesn't really do anything.
2. Throw stones at it like crazy with my trebs.
3. Turn my prophetess into a Great Mountain Dragon or chimera or something stupid like that
4. Dwellers below will take care of the job
5. A combo charge from a couple of large lances not packing characters might have a chance - especially if I can hex the unit with curse of anraheir or iceshard blizzard.

1. Thats fine, it could work, but Walk Between worlds is still a thing.
2.Your stone throwers aren't magical.
3. Could work, risky though.
4.Yeah it will,shouldn't have to have it is people's argument.
5. Again, its your stuff not being magical.

1. Aren't there chaff units in the daemon book? I think those would be pretty useful
2. Do you have access to spells like the dwellers below? I thought Nurgle had some nasty toughness test spells
3. Okkam's Mindrazor does not make the attacks magical. Any unit packing that will do some damage. Do you have any units at all that do not do magical attacks to start with?
4. The unit will still suffer from hex spells.
5. Do you have access to anything that destroys magic items?
6. Are your chariot impact hits considered to be magical? If not, impact hits really hurt the pointy ears

1. Yeah, people are worried that points denial lists make this strat worthless.
2.Yeah, but lucky rolling shouldn't be counted on, and named chars are not always allowed.
3. All daemon attacks are magical.
4.K, 2+ still in effect even if i'm S10 and your T1.
5.I don't know this one tbh,
6.All daemon attacks are magical.

1. Feed the unit peasants and other garbage so that it doesn't really do anything.

-Chaff is still expensive and still magic.

2. Throw stones at it like crazy with my trebs.

-War machines are magic and expensive.

3. Turn my prophetess into a Great Mountain Dragon or chimera or something stupid like that

-As said, only Kairos can do that AND he still has magic attacks (don't lose special rules on transformation) so this accomplishes exactly nothing.

4. Dwellers below will take care of the job

Only Kairos can cast this.

5. A combo charge from a couple of large lances not packing characters might have a chance - especially if I can hex the unit with curse of anraheir or iceshard blizzard.

If the enemy is cursed to all 1 stats they still have a 2+ ward save.

On a slightly related note, I hope people realize that Walk Between Worlds doesn't let you walk through enemy units.

What confuses me is with the 8th edition rules changes, and then the subsequent changes that were made in the new army book, DoC have already been significantly nerfed unto the point of being next to worthless.

And with the changes that were made in the rules to 8th, HE are already pretty broken...

So why would you give an already broken army a horribly overpowered and underpriced item that seems designed to completely nerf DoC even further? Sometime the "powers that be" in GW really confuse me.... DoC must have scarred some of their people badly prior to 8th for all this hate to be seen as necessary.... lol

Then, on a business front, it seems like a really bad business move to me to take one of the armies that you have recently done a huge update and release of new models for (assuming you want to sell said models anyway) and then make an item like this banner to make them horribly uncompetative (more so than 8th and new DoC book did).... this is one very confused soul here, that is all I am saying....

What about the lore of nurgle spells that require toughness tests?

T3 just hates that

Can you leadership bomb the unit?

 caledoneus wrote:
What confuses me is with the 8th edition rules changes, and then the subsequent changes that were made in the new army book, DoC have already been significantly nerfed unto the point of being next to worthless.

And with the changes that were made in the rules to 8th, HE are already pretty broken...

So why would you give an already broken army a horribly overpowered and underpriced item that seems designed to completely nerf DoC even further? Sometime the "powers that be" in GW really confuse me.... DoC must have scarred some of their people badly prior to 8th for all this hate to be seen as necessary.... lol

Then, on a business front, it seems like a really bad business move to me to take one of the armies that you have recently done a huge update and release of new models for (assuming you want to sell said models anyway) and then make an item like this banner to make them horribly uncompetative (more so than 8th and new DoC book did).... this is one very confused soul here, that is all I am saying....

Pray tell, aside from the BotWD vs. Daemons, how are High Elves broken?

I don't think high elves are broken really at all. I think that the banner of ultimate undying skill of St Ward is the only real issue in the entire army, and it tops the game as (imo) the most broken item in existence even over the crown of napoleanic command because it negates an entire other army.