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 Atlantic wrote:
What about the lore of nurgle spells that require toughness tests?

T3 just hates that

Can you leadership bomb the unit?

Sure, Nurgle has 3 'pass a toughness test or take a wound with no armour save' type of spells... that do guess what type of damage...
(hint: the Ward Banner still gives the unit a 2++)

Ld bombing works, provided you take a bunch of Slaanesh wizards... and get the required spells... and get enough dice to cast them... and hope the HE player flubs their dispel rolls... and if the HE player hasn't simply stuck an Anointed or Alarielle into their BotWD unit to make the entire tactic useless of course!

The banner will not provide a save for characteristics tests.

I don't see where it doesn't provide a save against characteristics tests that cause a wound.

You don't get a ward save against characteristic tests that kill outright without causing wounds, I can't find anywhere where you are not allowed ward saves against characteristic tests that cause wounds...

It's not the test you get the save against, it's the wound caused by failing the save.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On a slightly related note, I hope people realize that Walk Between Worlds doesn't let you walk through enemy units.

But they all of a sudden have 20 movement and ignore terrain. They can reform and if they pass a LD test (and they will) they could even march. That's a pretty gigantic amount of movement and they shouldn't have any problems getting away from that 5 model chaff if they so choose.

I've read the thread. I'm convinced. Daemons have a seriously uphill battle against HE. A white lion horde with BotWD looks pretty appealing as a TAC option, and seems absolutely unsporting against DoC.

*yawn yawn* Bored now. Let's liven this up.

The DoC player that DOES defeat the all-mighty skillbanner will draw the gaze of the Chaos Gods and be mightily rewarded! Or turned into a mewling spawn, cuz, ya know, Chaos. And a DoC player that loses to the BotWD isn't losing much face. So what does the army that kills BotWD look like?

Assume the HE player writes an anti-DoC list, and the DoC reciprocates. The (uphill, noted, granted) path to DoC victory in this case seems to be:

1) Pick off the HE 25% core points, cuz they can't be bunkered.
2) Target characters from the bunker, even through the 2+ save. heros need to roll 1's twice. Cannon Sniping, Death spam (DoC can use death, right?). Possibly suicide runs, if DoC have the tools.
3a) Have a maneuverable enough army to avoid the bunker and spell range. Watch out for Walk Between Worlds.
-OR-
3b) Have a sufficiently resilient character/unit to tie the bunker up all game. Gotta be able to contend with 3 ranks, banner, bsb, and not be getting crushed by horded white lions+probable melee character support.
4) Hope to IF nuke spells without nuking your own caster.

DoC players, the gauntlet is thrown. Will you answer the challenge?

1. 100% of your points can't be bunkered. While you go for 25% of his he can go for all of yours.
2. They can kill all your cannons by just walking up to it and eating it. Cannons don't get 2 Look out sir rolls (or even 1).
3. Maneuver where? To another game? If you have an all Slaanesh army with 75% of your points moving 10, you're still slower, by 100% than Walk between Worlds. And where you going to go and for what purpose? DoC is a melee army.
3b. However resilient you want to be, it is not ward 2. Regen 4 is as good as it can possibly be consistently. I.e., half as good. You can try and heal back units with spells, but the problem (again) is they have to cause unsaved wounds.
4. They can cast too.

Not much of a gauntlet I'm afraid.

kooshlord wrote:
I've read the thread. I'm convinced. Daemons have a seriously uphill battle against HE. A white lion horde with BotWD looks pretty appealing as a TAC option, and seems absolutely unsporting against DoC.

*yawn yawn* Bored now. Let's liven this up.

The DoC player that DOES defeat the all-mighty skillbanner will draw the gaze of the Chaos Gods and be mightily rewarded! Or turned into a mewling spawn, cuz, ya know, Chaos. And a DoC player that loses to the BotWD isn't losing much face. So what does the army that kills BotWD look like?

Assume the HE player writes an anti-DoC list, and the DoC reciprocates. The (uphill, noted, granted) path to DoC victory in this case seems to be:

1) Pick off the HE 25% core points, cuz they can't be bunkered.
2) Target characters from the bunker, even through the 2+ save. heros need to roll 1's twice. Cannon Sniping, Death spam (DoC can use death, right?). Possibly suicide runs, if DoC have the tools.
3a) Have a maneuverable enough army to avoid the bunker and spell range. Watch out for Walk Between Worlds.
-OR-
3b) Have a sufficiently resilient character/unit to tie the bunker up all game. Gotta be able to contend with 3 ranks, banner, bsb, and not be getting crushed by horded white lions+probable melee character support.
4) Hope to IF nuke spells without nuking your own caster.

DoC players, the gauntlet is thrown. Will you answer the challenge?

I dont think your strategy is very good.

If your going to a tournament you take an epidemius list and if you face high elves your flying demon prince keeps one of the big PB units off the board until the end of the game in the portaglyph. You basically play for point denial, draw, or minimal loss. If you face two HE lists with the banner at a tournament then just go have a smoke or a sandwich during the second game.

If it is a casual game you just walk away, its just not worth the trouble, if they require that much of a crutch they are not qualified to play me in a friendly game, i need someone with a minimal amount of skill to make it worth my time.

 Atlantic wrote:
The banner will not provide a save for characteristics tests.

Those Nurgle spells are "if you fail a toughness test, you take a wound with no armour saves allowed"

Note the lack of "remove from play" in those spells' rules, meaning sure, HE's will fail 50% of those toughness test... and then still get a 2++ if they're in a BotWD unit!!!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Atlantic wrote:
The banner will not provide a save for characteristics tests.

Those Nurgle spells are "if you fail a toughness test, you take a wound with no armour saves allowed"

Note the lack of "remove from play" in those spells' rules, meaning sure, HE's will fail 50% of those toughness test... and then still get a 2++ if they're in a BotWD unit!!!

This thread has become rather amusing. New people find it, dont read very many posts, then post something stupid that has been explained many times, and then there is this response

It has become a trap for people that dont know the DoC rules to post silly stuff, kind of like a flypaper that sticks to HE players.

Teclis.....

I'm about to give some really horrible, badly second-hand information:

A buddy of mine told me this weekend that he read forum posts and/or a battle report of a somewhat high-end player in the competitive scene here who played DoC against a big White Lion unit with the banner. He used a big unit of Plaguebearers and won the combat. He just grinded it out and came out on top, and won the game as well. I don't remember the guy's name as I don't follow the competitive scene, but there ya go.

 Tangent wrote:
I'm about to give some really horrible, badly second-hand information:

A buddy of mine told me this weekend that he read forum posts and/or a battle report of a somewhat high-end player in the competitive scene here who played DoC against a big White Lion unit with the banner. He used a big unit of Plaguebearers and won the combat. He just grinded it out and came out on top, and won the game as well. I don't remember the guy's name as I don't follow the competitive scene, but there ya go.

So this either a case of;
a) The High Elf player being a complete idiot.
or
b) The Dice Gods rightly putting the smack down on the High Elf player and hexing his dice to roll abysmally low.

To reliably grind down the unit, the Daemon player is either pulling off multiple flank/rear charges to prevent reforms. That means the Elf player is a dumb*** because they either purposely made some utterly appauling moves to give the Daemon player that opening, and/or Slaanesh magic shinanigans were involved and they weren't dispelled.
Or else the Elf player completely ignored things like Ambushing Flesh Hounds or a Portalglyph unit popping out behind them thanks to a flying DP/Greater. (so again, Elf player being dumb)

Plaguebearers taking on a White Lion horde head-on and winning means they either have an Augment/Hex or two in play, (Miasma/Curse of the Leaper/Fleshy Abundance)
Without that help, White Lions still spank the Plagies rather badly due to hit on 4's/wound on 2's, while the Plaguies still need 4's to-hit and 3's to-wound and have to grind through the armour save/2++ save.


Nice to see a Daemon player get a win against the banner, but at the same time, I'd love to know what else both lists brought and if the BotWD was simply thrown onto a 20/21 strong WL unit that was then left rather badly unsupported...

Would need to see a battle report or more information.

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

If you are putting it in a unit of seaguard *and* putting it on a bsb, sure, it's not an auto-win. No one is arguing against that, in fact most people have said to fix the banner of undying skill it should just be made to be bsb-only.

If you slap it into a white lion bunker and put all of your characters in it and make that unit 75% of your points and make it NOT your bsb so you have to kill the whole unit and not just figure out how to put 2 wounds on the bsb, that's a different story entirely.

 pities2004 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

Okay, so basically, put it on a snipable character, then put him into one of the absolute worst possible units to gain benefit from the BotWD and thus assume it's perfectly balanced...

Yeah, not sure if serious...

My friends who I play with are already giving me crap about the skill banner and I haven't even played a game yet... None of them play demons... Just brettonians warriors of chaos vampires lizards and empire...

tedbpb wrote:
My friends who I play with are already giving me crap about the skill banner and I haven't even played a game yet... None of them play demons... Just brettonians warriors of chaos vampires lizards and empire...

a) The Bret player is likely concerned about their fighty characters and Grail Knights being auto-neutered.
Mind you, they still have Dwellers, Lore of Beasts, multiple Knight buses and double Trebs... They should be fine, even without their #1 & #2 combat hitters.

b) The WoC player now needs to leave their magic weapon at home on their characters or they can be trapped in unwinnable challenges... Chaos Knights & Skullcrushers without Ensorcelled weapons are a joke. (well, Skullcrushers might do fine with lances being Khorne and all, but those Juggs are auto-fethed!)
Note too his Hellcannon is worse off now, while he might also be fearing the banner going onto a unit of Dragon Princes which have the speed to chase down a Daemon Prince and tarpit him all game.

c) VC's need their characters to generate kills - especially against elite units like White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard & Swordmasters! Their infantry simply can't put-out enough damage, (especially if you're smart and know which of their spells to dispel), while their monstrous stuff just gets demolished by faster WL's/SM's.
Thus, they rely on magic weapon toting characters to kill the rank-and-file and generate the combat res. Guess what your shiny banner just all but removes?!
Note as well that all their shooting is magical, so putting the banner onto a unit means a lot less pts that can suddenly be screamed at.

d) The Lizzie & Empire players are just whining for the sake of it. They're among the least affected armies by the banner honestly... Any fighty characters are pretty fethed by the banner, but overall they have the bulk of their army & playstyle that's totally unaffected by the 2++ save. (and both amuzingly enough still have access to Dwellers as well!)



I agree the banner is likely bad-news bears for the WoC & VC players. (much more-so the VC player) Because these are the guys that will have to make the most significant changes to their armies in order to not get caught unawares by an entire unit, (with likely character support), that suddenly gets a 2++ vs a goodly chunk of their damage outputs.

Experiment 626 wrote:

tedbpb wrote:
My friends who I play with are already giving me crap about the skill banner and I haven't even played a game yet... None of them play demons... Just brettonians warriors of chaos vampires lizards and empire...

a) The Bret player is likely concerned about their fighty characters and Grail Knights being auto-neutered.
Mind you, they still have Dwellers, Lore of Beasts, multiple Knight buses and double Trebs... They should be fine, even without their #1 & #2 combat hitters.

b) The WoC player now needs to leave their magic weapon at home on their characters or they can be trapped in unwinnable challenges... Chaos Knights & Skullcrushers without Ensorcelled weapons are a joke. (well, Skullcrushers might do fine with lances being Khorne and all, but those Juggs are auto-fethed!)
Note too his Hellcannon is worse off now, while he might also be fearing the banner going onto a unit of Dragon Princes which have the speed to chase down a Daemon Prince and tarpit him all game.

c) VC's need their characters to generate kills - especially against elite units like White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard & Swordmasters! Their infantry simply can't put-out enough damage, (especially if you're smart and know which of their spells to dispel), while their monstrous stuff just gets demolished by faster WL's/SM's.
Thus, they rely on magic weapon toting characters to kill the rank-and-file and generate the combat res. Guess what your shiny banner just all but removes?!
Note as well that all their shooting is magical, so putting the banner onto a unit means a lot less pts that can suddenly be screamed at.

d) The Lizzie & Empire players are just whining for the sake of it. They're among the least affected armies by the banner honestly... Any fighty characters are pretty fethed by the banner, but overall they have the bulk of their army & playstyle that's totally unaffected by the 2++ save. (and both amuzingly enough still have access to Dwellers as well!)



I agree the banner is likely bad-news bears for the WoC & VC players. (much more-so the VC player) Because these are the guys that will have to make the most significant changes to their armies in order to not get caught unawares by an entire unit, (with likely character support), that suddenly gets a 2++ vs a goodly chunk of their damage outputs.

On Brets, Lizards and Empire it doesn't matter. WoC yeah they have trouble but thing like Dragon ogres regular warriors and ogres are unaffected so you have to be smart about you deployments but it is not a completely lost cause.

VC WEll my friends ghoul unit with ghoul king vampire and necromancer actually held my Banner lions for quite a while and then broke them and made them run it seems like if you build your lords to put out a ton of attacks the vampire natural statline allows for enough wounds that the elf player fails 1-2

Experiment 626 wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

Okay, so basically, put it on a snipable character, then put him into one of the absolute worst possible units to gain benefit from the BotWD and thus assume it's perfectly balanced...

Yeah, not sure if serious...

U MAD BRO?

Before you fall off your high horse, the army list I was using had NO white lions ( OMG NOOB OMG NO WHITE LIONS NOOOB)

I was using a big block of PG and Lothern Seaguard, with sisters of avelorn.

I had the everqueen in the sisters, I had a high mage lvl 2 in the PG and the banner with noble in the LSG.

Each unit had ward saves, I thought it would be a waste of points on the PG to increase the WS by 2 ( or 1 if I cast one spell)

 pities2004 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

Okay, so basically, put it on a snipable character, then put him into one of the absolute worst possible units to gain benefit from the BotWD and thus assume it's perfectly balanced...

Yeah, not sure if serious...

U MAD BRO?

Before you fall off your high horse, the army list I was using had NO white lions ( OMG NOOB OMG NO WHITE LIONS NOOOB)

I was using a big block of PG and Lothern Seaguard, with sisters of avelorn.

I had the everqueen in the sisters, I had a high mage lvl 2 in the PG and the banner with noble in the LSG.

Each unit had ward saves, I thought it would be a waste of points on the PG to increase the WS by 2 ( or 1 if I cast one spell)

Umm Yeah on the PG you can only increase their ward by 1 you can't have a 2++ unlimited ward

 captain collius wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

Okay, so basically, put it on a snipable character, then put him into one of the absolute worst possible units to gain benefit from the BotWD and thus assume it's perfectly balanced...

Yeah, not sure if serious...

U MAD BRO?

Before you fall off your high horse, the army list I was using had NO white lions ( OMG NOOB OMG NO WHITE LIONS NOOOB)

I was using a big block of PG and Lothern Seaguard, with sisters of avelorn.

I had the everqueen in the sisters, I had a high mage lvl 2 in the PG and the banner with noble in the LSG.

Each unit had ward saves, I thought it would be a waste of points on the PG to increase the WS by 2 ( or 1 if I cast one spell)

Umm Yeah on the PG you can only increase their ward by 1 you can't have a 2++ unlimited ward

With the Banner they would have 2+ against magic, and they could have a up to 3+ wardsave with high magic.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Atlantic wrote:
What about the lore of nurgle spells that require toughness tests?

T3 just hates that

Can you leadership bomb the unit?

Sure, Nurgle has 3 'pass a toughness test or take a wound with no armour save' type of spells... that do guess what type of damage...
(hint: the Ward Banner still gives the unit a 2++)

Ld bombing works, provided you take a bunch of Slaanesh wizards... and get the required spells... and get enough dice to cast them... and hope the HE player flubs their dispel rolls... and if the HE player hasn't simply stuck an Anointed or Alarielle into their BotWD unit to make the entire tactic useless of course!

I'm not so sure about this. I understand the spells don't read the same way as Dwellers, Pit of Shades, & Purple Sun.

On pg. 44 there is a block that says something about 'Instant Kills'. It defines models being removed as casualties after the failure of a characteristics test not receiving saves of any kind.

I might be reading this wrong and I certainly need to check the FAQ, but it is worth a look. It suggests to me that any thing that requires a failed characteristic test is an unsaveable wound. I might be wrong though.

I think Curse of Anraheir is a good bet too as you will not get a ward save from dangerous terrain tests. Open Ground is defined as the most common type of terrain. That spell would make it extra dangerous.


Aside from that point though, I would like to say "Can we turn the sarcasm down in this thread?"

No I am not a Daemon expert. I mostly play Bretonnia and I have a High Elf Army. I'm just trying to be constructive. I don't see any need for head slaps or other posts about this thread being an idiot trap.

@ Atlantic. There is no question about the banner giving a 2+ save to wounds from plague wind. There just is not anything ambiguous about this particular situation.

If you fail the test, you take a wound. You need to read the spell in the demon book.

JWhex wrote:
@ Atlantic. There is no question about the banner giving a 2+ save to wounds from plague wind. There just is not anything ambiguous about this particular situation.

If you fail the test, you take a wound. You need to read the spell in the demon book.

Also all the spells that get around the banner say the model is removed as a casualty not it takes a wound

 pities2004 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Would need to see a battle report or more information.

It's not an auto-win item against daemons. I played against my DoC friend the other day and it ended up in a draw. The only unit i had left on the table was 40 lothern seaguard with BOTW on my BSB.

it was unfortunate that my 40 PG got rear charged by a greater daemon and was unable to win combat or draw to reform and got run down with some very bad rolls.


The BOTW is not EASY SUPER HAPPY WIN as people are making it out to be.

just as posted above, another DoC managing to fight with it.


It's a good item, good items don't win games.

Okay, so basically, put it on a snipable character, then put him into one of the absolute worst possible units to gain benefit from the BotWD and thus assume it's perfectly balanced...

Yeah, not sure if serious...

U MAD BRO?

Before you fall off your high horse, the army list I was using had NO white lions ( OMG NOOB OMG NO WHITE LIONS NOOOB)

I was using a big block of PG and Lothern Seaguard, with sisters of avelorn.

I had the everqueen in the sisters, I had a high mage lvl 2 in the PG and the banner with noble in the LSG.

Each unit had ward saves, I thought it would be a waste of points on the PG to increase the WS by 2 ( or 1 if I cast one spell)

The issue is not against non power listed high elves. I am certainly not advocating that taking the banner at all == auto win. It doesn't. Its taking the block in a power list specifically tailored to jack daemons over (ie the white lion deathstar crammed with characters, and specifically not putting your banner on a bsb so that it can be sniped or taken out).

I've fought the skill banner several times now against power listed high elves specifically designed to take out daemons with my daemons. I've lost every time simply because there's nothing that I can do against the mega blob that has an armor save and then a 2+ ward save on top of that against all of my attacks.

The dragon prince version is just as bad as it is a highly mobile offensive tool that carries a 2+ armor / 2+ ward and had a life mage hovering nearby to restore wounds. I don't know what is worse, the points denial white lion blob or the large hammer of the dragon princes that you can't hurt that has an 18" move + 20" move in the magic phase if the spell goes off.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or a troll. I'm not trying to argue the point that the DoC players are making, it sounds like you have excellent points and have either thought this out carefully, or actually experienced it on the table. I'm simply wondering what you'd do to give yourselves the best chance of draw/victory against such a HE army? If it is more appropriate to bring this thought into an army list thread, I've prepared one here: 2500 DoC vs 2500 HE Lionstar BoTWD PointDenial

JWhex wrote:
I dont think your strategy is very good.

If your going to a tournament you take an epidemius list and if you face high elves your flying demon prince keeps one of the big PB units off the board until the end of the game in the portaglyph. You basically play for point denial, draw, or minimal loss. If you face two HE lists with the banner at a tournament then just go have a smoke or a sandwich during the second game.

If it is a casual game you just walk away, its just not worth the trouble, if they require that much of a crutch they are not qualified to play me in a friendly game, i need someone with a minimal amount of skill to make it worth my time.

Is there a better strategy than my proposal for a DoC player looking to up their odds of success against such a HE army? We'll take "walk away" as the default 0% chance of success option. Epidemus List with DP tactics as described sounds like an improvement over 0% chance of success. Anything that would better it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
1. 100% of your points can't be bunkered. While you go for 25% of his he can go for all of yours.
2. They can kill all your cannons by just walking up to it and eating it. Cannons don't get 2 Look out sir rolls (or even 1).
3. Maneuver where? To another game? If you have an all Slaanesh army with 75% of your points moving 10, you're still slower, by 100% than Walk between Worlds. And where you going to go and for what purpose? DoC is a melee army.
3b. However resilient you want to be, it is not ward 2. Regen 4 is as good as it can possibly be consistently. I.e., half as good. You can try and heal back units with spells, but the problem (again) is they have to cause unsaved wounds.
4. They can cast too.

Not much of a gauntlet I'm afraid.

I was not hoping to get a "hard counter" list, cuz I'm convinced none exist. I was hoping for a "best odds" list. So far I've heard JWhex propose Epidemus army tactics. Anything else improve those odds?

1. Agreed (barring attempts to cannon-snipe or what have you).
2. So you don't think cannons are "best odds" options. How bout Death Magic, or Assassin-y units/characters?
3a. Walk between worlds can be cast once per phase on one unit. If the HE IF that spell, they probably won't have dice to IF another spell also. If they use Book of Hoeth to attempt to IF EVERY spell, that might actually work in the DoC player's favor, as they have increased chances of getting their mage sucked into the warp. Maybe better odds than anything the DoC character can do deliberately?
3b. Yes, DoC is less resiliant. Can DoC get a Regen 4 character with -1 to hit, high WS, and the possibility of debuffing the White Lions strength or WS? Similar to the WoC build?
4. Well, yes. But I didn't think DoC were dwarves. So what's the "best odds" approach to the DoC magic phase?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:The issue is not against non power listed high elves. I am certainly not advocating that taking the banner at all == auto win. It doesn't. Its taking the block in a power list specifically tailored to jack daemons over (ie the white lion deathstar crammed with characters, and specifically not putting your banner on a bsb so that it can be sniped or taken out).

I've fought the skill banner several times now against power listed high elves specifically designed to take out daemons with my daemons. I've lost every time simply because there's nothing that I can do against the mega blob that has an armor save and then a 2+ ward save on top of that against all of my attacks.

The dragon prince version is just as bad as it is a highly mobile offensive tool that carries a 2+ armor / 2+ ward and had a life mage hovering nearby to restore wounds. I don't know what is worse, the points denial white lion blob or the large hammer of the dragon princes that you can't hurt that has an 18" move + 20" move in the magic phase if the spell goes off.

Was your army specifically designed to take out either of those elf armies, or were you playing a TAC list?

We started some threads in tactics. This is more a zomg thread that got really big and people said l2p a lot.

I think Kairos with blue scribes and some horror units and Heralds to get a million channels is the best magic.

HE don't have to 6 dice walk, it costs 8+. It's cheap. They can throw at arcane unforging and blow up some GD's only item.

My army was my nurgle demon army. That's the only demon army that I own. I am not going to go out and buy additional units that don't fit the theme on the off chance I run into the banner of the awesome mat ward (i just simply won't play against it with demons now).

I'm pretty sure that a tooled up powergamed demon list would do better, but I still bet that it would struggle mightily against an elf army that was tooled for demons with the banner of Mat Ward smiles upon thee skill.