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kooshlord wrote:
I'm not trying to be a jerk or a troll. I'm not trying to argue the point that the DoC players are making, it sounds like you have excellent points and have either thought this out carefully, or actually experienced it on the table. I'm simply wondering what you'd do to give yourselves the best chance of draw/victory against such a HE army? If it is more appropriate to bring this thought into an army list thread, I've prepared one here: 2500 DoC vs 2500 HE Lionstar BoTWD PointDenial

Is there a better strategy than my proposal for a DoC player looking to up their odds of success against such a HE army? We'll take "walk away" as the default 0% chance of success option. Epidemus List with DP tactics as described sounds like an improvement over 0% chance of success. Anything that would better it?

I was not hoping to get a "hard counter" list, cuz I'm convinced none exist. I was hoping for a "best odds" list. So far I've heard JWhex propose Epidemus army tactics. Anything else improve those odds?

There's a Daemon player over at the Daemonic Legion forum claiming to have spanked a Banner of Ultimate SkillDragon WL list by hitting said unit with Final Trans twice to take it from its starting size of 35 down to the low teens, then hitting it a large Plagebearer brick and grinding it down.

So basically;
a) Use only the 1 main cookie-cutter Daemon list
b) Hit it with Final Trans at least 2 times. (without encountering any misadventures like miscasts)
c) Charge it with at least double the amount of remaining pts and then grind away.

Great...

Now, if you don't IF Final Trans and instead it get's scrolled, you're pretty pooched... That's of course assuming you even get enough dice to 5/6 dice attempt it each turn and the Realm of Comedy table doesn't just up an fry your Final Trans caster for lolz. (seriously, why couldn't that stupid table have just been kept as part of our all but non-existent shooting phase like it is in 40k?!)

Building a demon army to take on a BotW HE list is a waste of time. Most decent players make TAC lists. Why go to all the effort of making up for the complete lack of skill and talent of the GW design team. Unless your going to a tournament there is just no compelling reason for a demon army to match up against a HE army with the banner.

JWhex wrote:
Building a demon army to take on a BotW HE list is a waste of time. Most decent players make TAC lists. Why go to all the effort of making up for the complete lack of skill and talent of the GW design team. Unless your going to a tournament there is just no compelling reason for a demon army to match up against a HE army with the banner.

Don't get wrong, I completely agree that unless you like basically cutting your teeth out or are playing in a tournament, there's little point in ever playing a game vs a BotWD elf list - it's just no fun at all for the Daemon player...
Basically shoe-horning us into going LoC + 'Bearer/BSB brick + Beasts is dull as feth. Add to that your only real hope is to Final Trans/Dwellers the unit twice and then still needing at least double the points worth of models to attempt grinding the last bit away... Yeah, no thanks.

Until the 9th ed reset button, (god I hope that's true!), my Tzeentch Daemons will simply stick to not playing vs HE's if they have the banner and instead likely become a more or less 40k army.
The Fantasy book is just so insanely inferior to the 40k book it isn't even funny... Rewards are better implimented, Reign of Chaos is controllable, the army synergises MUCH better overall, likely the best Warlord Traits table seen thus far, almost all units are useful... And most importantly, there's multiple viable competitive builds!

Look at this way, even Grey Knights are now less of an issue than a BotWD High Elf army! (who'd a ever seen that one coming?!)

eh... Grey Knights are still in my book several degrees worse than an elf banner of ultimate pwnage.

The banner only affects one unit. Unless the elf player is being a super powergaming cheese monkey and putting all his army into the unit, its still the one unit, whereas the grey knight army is the grey knight army and all of their units sodomize demons.

Note: i'm not saying the banner of beautiful tactical genius is not OP (you should already know by now my feelings on it and demons) just that grey knights will live in infamy as "that army" for 100 years or more after they get a new book.