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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 13:45:12
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Dogged Kum
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I was wonder if anyone is having success running Mutilators? If so, how are you using them?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 13:48:02
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 13:56:22
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Executing Exarch
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IF I were to run mutilators, I'd take deamon allies and the grimoire of true names. Use it to give them a 3++ as they have the demon special rule ( iirc). Or I'd stick them in an LR and put Abby with them and then give them a 3++ when they got out. That seems like it could be quite fun. I don't run them myself as they are ugly as I'm tempted to convert some termies at some point.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/29 13:56:54
Blacksails wrote:
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 14:27:16
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Lord of the Fleet
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For me, Mutilators fall into the same category as sushi and coffee: I really, really want to like them but I just absolutely can't. On paper they look pretty nifty with their good choices of weapons, but their main drawback is lack of a delivery system. Short of dropping another 220points for a Land Raider, they're going to be slogging up the battlefield, especially considering that they can't run. Sure they can Deep Strike, but this has it's obvious disadvantages, leaving you vulnerable to ID fire for a turn.
If you're adamant on taking them, as mentioned before taking a Grimoire to boost their Invuln to 2++ with the MoT (which I think they would do better with MoK) would help with the DS problem, but with the points that you're spending on these guys you could easily make up a CC-orientated squad such as Termies or even plain CSM that could do the job just as well with the added benefits of extra mobility.
In short, I'd consider them, but they're far from the competitive choice that Obliterators, and the Green Stuff abortions that make up their models make them even less of an attractive choice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 14:39:20
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 14:43:17
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stealthy Grot Snipa
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Take mutilators and take daemon allies with epidemius and they get the benefit of his tally as they are daemons of nurgle
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Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Chaos Dwarfs 8/5/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 14:44:14
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant
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Deepstrike a squad with mark of nurgle or mark of khorn into cover and stand back 20" with a lvl3 unmarked sorceror with some obliteraters. Then cast invisibility onto the mutilators and let them enjoy a 2+ coversave. Watch everyone but tau freak out when they realize that that unit is about to screw an entire flank.
Now another thing you could do is run tzeench and cast forwarning for a 4++ that becomes a 3++ on them and have fun with that. Do that twice and its even more fun
So yes, I have had a lot of fun with mutilators and they are incredible ways to draw fire from your winged daemon prince as he flys in to pummel face
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When your wife suggests roleplay as a result of your table top gaming... life just seems right
I took my wife thru the BRB for fantasy and 40k, the first thing she said was "AWESOME"... codex: Chaos Daemons Nurgle..... to all those who says God aint real.... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 14:44:33
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
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Take three of them, give MOK, add khorne lord in termi with axe and then I add termi sorc with level 3 and familliar. Roll 3 times on biomancy, and laugh.
Gives you a unit that can hit and kill any target, probably gets FNP and it will not die, as well as other neat powers.
It's probably the closest to a melee swiss army knife.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 15:00:02
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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mcyeatman wrote:I was wonder if anyone is having success running Mutilators? If so, how are you using them?
sorry, they are terribad. The worst unit in the codex, that is full of bad units.
There are some who contend that dropping a single one in the enemy backfield can be used a a distraction unit. I think you are much better using 3 terminators than 1 mutilator(costs more) but gives you a much more effective unit.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 15:03:01
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Mutilators should always have had a 4++ and FNP. Then they might be worthwhile. As is, they are just bad. Dont even bother, even with the potential for that 3++ from the Grimoire.
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"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak
~14k
~10k
~5k corsairs
~3k DKOK |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 15:51:50
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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Red Corsair wrote:OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
So, that's essentially the same plan as the GK Solodin, same cost even, except the solodin can shoot (storm bolter or their holocaust blast, which is pretty good) and often, score.
Oh, yeah, they have grenades. Think of that---and assault unit, with grenades.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 15:58:13
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Adding to that particular discussion, I'd say if you have the spare 55 points, then give it a try. Just don't expect anything remotely close to a miracle to occur. Your enemies can kill it when it arrives or failing that, just back away since these things are ponderously slow. If you can make it into combat it's bound to do some damage against the range-based units you've been trying to distract, just the only problem is getting there and surviving long enough to do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 16:11:38
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
The comments about using them with Demons aren't bad, but there are things in the Demon codex that will do the exact same thing for fewer points and you won't have to pay the Allies tax. The comment I quoted above is probably the only reasonable use I've heard of for them. I could maybe see taking two or three of them and giving the MoN to help with the survivability. The only thing is, you have to ask yourself what you lose by letting them take up those FoC slots.
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 16:27:44
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Sir_Prometheus wrote: Red Corsair wrote:OK aside from all the people here with the usual net think comments, a solo mutilator with mark of nurgle or tzeentch or even markless is actually great force disruption for cheap. Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
The key is to keep it cheap so as I said they either let your 55 point single model charge in and take out their support fire or they dedicate a whole unit to dealing with him while you are tearing at him from the front.
He can also be used as a very cheap means at getting line breaker if you want to DS him behind some LOS blocking feature.
IMO elites are generally the last slot used in CSM, so it isn't a poor slot use to run a solo or two if you have the odd 55 points.
So, that's essentially the same plan as the GK Solodin, same cost even, except the solodin can shoot (storm bolter or their holocaust blast, which is pretty good) and often, score.
Oh, yeah, they have grenades. Think of that---and assault unit, with grenades.
and they cannot be swept because they are ATSKNF. Think of that--- an assault unit, that can lose combat and stick around
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 16:52:30
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Dogged Kum
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Well, it seems like we have 2 clear camps on the subject. I do like some of the suggestions however. Along the same theme of questionable elite choices for CSM, is anyone having success with Hellbrutes?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:02:01
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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Hellbrutes are fine, just not great. They are cheap enough you can bring 3 easy but they suffer as all dreads (save perhaps iron clads) do in this edition and we don't have a reliable delivery system like our loyalist brethren do in the drop pod.
For mutilators, man, I don't know what they were thinking. If they had grenades and unit size of 10 I could maybe have come up with some creative solutions but the small unit size and no assault grenades in an already shooty edition is just too much to even consider taking them.
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01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:30:14
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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mcyeatman wrote:Well, it seems like we have 2 clear camps on the subject. I do like some of the suggestions however. Along the same theme of questionable elite choices for CSM, is anyone having success with Hellbrutes?
Helbrutes are ok as armor saturation and a way to get plasma cannons. I have used them in a monster mash for daemon engines. Maulerfiends, forgefineds, and defilers suffer in close combat against hordes and to a lesser extend against Meq when there is a lot of them. Preditors and vindicators even more so. A helbrute can be very effective at doubling the number of attacks and hull points while also brining some horde thinning weapons(heavy flamer/plasma cannon).
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:39:04
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Sinewy Scourge
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I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
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2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:41:17
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I always wondered what was running through the guy who made them's head. "Lets make a CC only version of obliterators: tons of points, can't run, can't sweep, no grenades, no reasonable transport, not even going to let them assault from deepstrike like the loyaLists are all doing these days. Perfect, everyone will want them. Now to design the model..."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/29 17:57:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:42:57
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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JGrand wrote: I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:49:23
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Sinewy Scourge
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No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do. Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k. I just don't agree. For 61 points, you get a unit with 2 wounds, toughness 5, 2+/5++ and 4 attacks of almost any standard CC weapon on the charge. If you drop them in an opponent's backfield, they must deal with it. There are plenty of weak objective grabbers (very popular), and long ranged units (both armor and infantry) that simply can't take out a Mutilator that easily. In addition, you can easily keep a Mutilator back to support your own weak objective grabbers or Cultist blogs while better units run forward. I'm not advocating for big units, or even multiple units. I do think that if you have 61 free points (you will likely have that free Elite slot if you are running CSM), they are worth some consideration. They fill an interesting niche that you can't easily fill for the price.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/29 17:49:56
2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:50:57
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Sir_Prometheus wrote: JGrand wrote: I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
not including special characters you might be right. Mandrakes are pretty bad though.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:52:09
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.
for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:54:10
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Fixture of Dakka
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A friend of mine was convinced to try Mutilators by someone on Dakka, oddly enough. Until that time, we were in the "one of the worst units in the game" category.
Oh how wrong we all were. They've been the most effective unit on the field in more than half the games they've been in, and been instrumental in all of them.
No amount of talking is going to convince anyone, you'll have to see them in action. Take 3 Nurgle Mutilators and give em a whirl. That unit is pretty cheap, so you won't be compromising your army at all.
If your opponent is going to rush into you, use them as counter assault. If your opponent is a static gunline, set them up on a flank and just rush up the field. Or, if you want to distract the back of their army, deep strike.
The people saying they are awful are almost certainly saying that based on just their stats and not actual play. Everyone telling you they are good has seen them on the table.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:56:39
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Sir_Prometheus wrote:Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.
for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.
95 points right? Automatically Appended Next Post: DarknessEternal wrote: If your opponent is a static gunline, set them up on a flank and just rush up the field.
rush them up the field? 6" a turn without the possibility to run? Automatically Appended Next Post: DarknessEternal wrote: Take 3 Nurgle Mutilators and give em a whirl. That unit is pretty cheap, so you won't be compromising your army at all.
180+ points isnt expensive? You need to give them VotLW, which brings them over 200 points or you are going to get pinned or force to fall back
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/29 17:59:18
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 17:59:27
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Sinewy Scourge
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Well, yes, I can ignore them. I can probably just walk away.
for 93 pts you could have 3 terminators.
If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
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2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 18:05:51
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Sir_Prometheus wrote: JGrand wrote: I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
3 Termies cost a lot more than 1 MoN Mut. I used singleton Mutilators for a while as some counterattack and I found them useful. It's one more hardy target opponents must waste shooting on. They can also DS into the back-lines of opponents.
Are they great? No. But are they versatile and offer some tactical flexibility? Yeah, i'd argue that they can fulfill a niche role. If they fit into a list, I can see uses.
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Bee beep boo baap |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 18:35:29
Subject: Re:CSM Mutilators?
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Fixture of Dakka
Temple Prime
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Sir_Prometheus wrote: JGrand wrote: I'm sorry, there is simply no reason to run mutilators. None.
I completely disagree with the responses of this thread. Mutilators are not an auto-include, but they aren't bad. If used as a disruption unit, they can work. Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
No....they really are that bad. They're only slighly more killy than a single terminator. There's really no reason not to take 3 terminators, or a lone boliterator, depending on what you want to do.
Other than pyrovores (still the reigning champ) they are the worst unit in 40k.
There is an awful lot of stuff you have to get through before you can even think of calling yourself pyrovore level bad. Penal Legion troops, Mandrakes, Old One Eye, Furies (LEADERSHIP 2!!!!!) and Flamers (here have some FNP on me) still exist after all.
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Midnightdeathblade wrote:Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 18:37:30
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Member of the Malleus
Boston, MA
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All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/29 18:44:12
Subject: CSM Mutilators?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Sir_Prometheus wrote:All those things are totally better than mutilators. (mandrakes only a little, but at least they aren't an assault unit that's slow)
meganobs are an assault unit that is still slow. and they are good not great. The have 2+ saves and standard load out of weapons. The difference is that meganobs come at a substantial discount to what you would otherwise be able to get (nob, with combishoota, PK and 2+ save for only 40 points). In addiition they come in a book that lacks quantities of power weapons or 2+ saves so they fill a role not otherwise covered elsewhere in the codex. Mutilators are very similar to terminators and do not come at a significant discount.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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