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Resurrecting the fury talk for a moment, tzeentch furies work great as a delivery system for zipping heralds of tzeentch on discs around the board, and make them far more survivable for cheaper than a chariot.
A good 100 pts of slaanesh furies will rip and tear light transports and backfield fire support just fine.
Skulltaker on juggernaut with khorne furies is a cheaper character killing delivery system than bloodcrushers.
Nurgle furies...eh those and unmarked furies, yeah those are pretty bad.
JGrand wrote:Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
Red Corsair wrote:Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
... for a turn.
That's not much of a distraction for the price.
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
JGrand wrote:If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
JGrand wrote:In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
JGrand wrote:Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
JGrand wrote:I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers....
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Red Corsair wrote:The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?
... you're stuck between an argument from authority fallacy, or you believe that tiny data sets lead to objective truth.
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
PredaKhaine wrote: Has anyone got any good conversion ideas for mutilators?
I got the original Obliterator models and used one for a conversion. Used the arms as heavy weapons for some Chaos Marines (a semi-Dark Mechanised Iron Warrior for one) and then sued the body. I also had a couple of the old Powerfist/Chainsword Doom Siren Champion from 2nd Ed.
So I put two Noisemarine Slaaneshi Powerfists on a Obliterator body. I've been using him as an Oblit for a long time, but now with Mutilators in the mix I am thinking I might try him out to see how this 'disruption' discussion works out.
Ok so as much as I want to laugh at all the people who said mutilations have a use as a solo disruption unit on weak backfield scoring units, I really can't as there have been way more incompetent things said in this thread. IF someone had a gun to my head and said run this unit or die, or if I was playing in a non competitive setting this is how I would run them too.
That said, if you have 55 points left then why are you not grabbing a cultist unit for some more backfield scoring?
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
Everything you play with is always considered substandard by the internet, why are you so quick to write of Mutilators?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
OK, so I tried the lone Mutie last night. Unfortunately my first two games were against a Tau player ...
This is a stupidly small sample size (way too small and wierd to mean anything definitive but I figured I'd at least try it and post a summary) and Tau are obviously NOT the best army to try this against but anyway, here we go:
Game 1
DS Mutie with no mark teleports in on turn 2. I tried to get him in near a squad of Firewarriors and positioned in such a way that only one squad would be able to shoot at him. Instead I scattered stupidly far in the absolute worst direction (why oh WHY do we NOT have reliable homing beacons!?!?!?) and ended up getting pasted by about 30 FW in the Tau turn. Since nothing else was in range or LOS yet anyway the Mutie really didn't even save anyone from getting shot at. It was kind of hilarious to watch actually.
Game 2
Same Tau player but Mutie has MoN. He used Interceptor to blast it off the board. Nothing more to see here. lol
Game 3
A smaller game against Dark Eldar. Mutie has MoN. It came in on turn 4 near a squad of Kabalites (I think 10 of them) with no transport, no upgrades and no backup camping on an objective in their backfield. I only scattered a small distance and did eventually push them off the objective which ended up winning me the game. Barely.
So take from it what you will, but I just thought I'd post my sparse results. I would NEVER do this again against Tau (I saw the pasting coming but tried it anyway), but I might consider trying it against C:SM devastators or CSM Havocs or something like that. Cultists are too expensive for what you get and I have a tendency not to objective camp with my CSM anyway so the 55pts might be well spent in that case.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
I think their *biggest* issue isn't survivability, or the perils of deep striking, or their toughness, it's slow & purposeful.
When was the last time you charged a unit and won the combat by wiping it out? I imagine it's pretty rare. Usually you win combats by breaking and then sweeping the enemy, which S&P units can't do.
This is only exacerbated by the fact that expensive, one model assault units like mutilators usually don't put out enough attacks to win outright and rely on sweeping even more!
I think their *biggest* issue isn't survivability, or the perils of deep striking, or their toughness, it's slow & purposeful.
At least in my case I actually found that Slow and Purposeful compounded DS scatter issues. If you can only move 6" a turn and you scatter 10" backwards when you come in ... well ... you're pretty much done at that point.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
A smaller game against Dark Eldar. Mutie has MoN. It came in on turn 4 near a squad of Kabalites (I think 10 of them) with no transport, no upgrades and no backup camping on an objective in their backfield. I only scattered a small distance and did eventually push them off the objective which ended up winning me the game. Barely.
finds a good target, but still.
It DSes in possibly scattering
gets rapid fired by the warriors, possibly dies, probably takes 1 wound.
Next turn it assaults, possibly dies to overwatch or is out of change range(in which case it is dead next turn)
If it gets into assault, it should kill 2 warriors a turn, making them test on Ld 6. If he does take a wound though(they strike first) he is dead. If he takes a wound he is probably dead as he has already taken 1.
If the DE run, they will likely rapid fire the mutilator to death the next turn.
Good, but a lot of risks involved and requires that you find a good target like this. This good target costs 90 points and you disrupted it, possibly killed it for 61 points.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Good, but a lot of risks involved and requires that you find a good target like this. This good target costs 90 points and you disrupted it, possibly killed it for 61 points.
I think you missed something, those 61 points won him the game.
Also, this solo deepstriker is not really a reliable way to run Mutilators. Try taking 3 and starting them on the board.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Also, this solo deepstriker is not really a reliable way to run Mutilators. Try taking 3 and starting them on the board.
How does that work? I had trouble getting to something that was only 10" away. I can't imagine trying to get them all the way across the board.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
Again, combi-weapon terminators cost about the same as two MoN Obliterators. If we want to talk "for the price," we have to be fair about it. I don't know what you expect to get for 61 points that is a better distraction "for the price." Well, besides Marbo--who is far less survivable.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
No one said they were a "surprise." I don't know what even qualifies as surprising in a transparent game. I also never said they fit all builds, but I do think disruption has a place. People take Marbo all the time. In 5th, Wolf Scouts were used all the time. I see the Doom of Malantai all the time. The list goes on.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
The "running away" was in direct response to a poster here. I don't assume incompetent opponents. However, a poster simply said that he would run his backfield units away--which isn't a solution.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
Sigh...I completely understand the role of the 3 combi-melta teminator unit. However, I'd argue that it doesn't have a huge place in the meta anymore. I got to events all the time. The armor that I see in 6th is rare, and usually on flyers. If I was going to drop in 110 points of combi-termies, I'd take combi-plasma.
And once again, you are comparing a 110 point unit to a 61 point unit.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Hmmmm...again, I go to events all the time. I consistently see min squads running in from reserves to take backfield objectives. Lots of times, MTO lists rely on these units. More often than not, they have to leave them unguarded. Not everyone has a substantial gunline that sits on their own board edge. Successful lists push midfield.
From my experience, a single Mutilator has a good chance to threaten those backfield grabbers. Again, I still wouldn't take it in EVERY list, or even most, but some.
2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
How does that work? I had trouble getting to something that was only 10" away. I can't imagine trying to get them all the way across the board.
You had trouble rolling a 4 on 2d6?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Ok, I've heard a lot of negativity to the unit. Unfortunately in my bull headed ways that means I'm more inspired than ever to run them. I may hate the model, but I think there is a lot of potential in conversions. I think I'll run one unit of three, with marks of MoN. I think I'll augment it with an HQ that can boost/affect their mobility/capabilities. A sorc in terminator armor maybe? I don't have my book handy, any suggestions on the sorc? Other ways to improve on them?
I wouldn't attach characters to them. Part of their effectiveness comes from target saturation. As soon as you start making these guys into "the unit to deal with first" they're going to lose out.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
I want to try a Tzeentch Terminator Lord with 3++ leading a unit of Mutilators out of a Land Raider. Even better, someone had the idea of attaching a Sorcerer, that's even better since it conveniently fills the other slot in the Land Raider, makes T-sons Troops, and gives access to Biomancy or Telepathy for extra shenanigans.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
Actually I think I rolled a 5, but he had backed up a few inches by then.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
JGrand wrote:Take the MoN and think of them as a deep striking Lone Wolf. If you have some leftover points, it isn't like they are competing with much for that Elite spot.
Red Corsair wrote:Simply DS a 55 point mutilator near a weapon emplacement like a squad of missile fangs, biovores or IG artillery or even a vindicare or quad gun and now your oppenent needs to allocate a much higher amount of points in there turn to deal with the threat or let the mutilator charge in an beat there units face.
... for a turn.
That's not much of a distraction for the price.
Plus, for twice as many points, you can take some combi-weapon terminators, who will have the same distraction effect, but are harder to kill, and can actually shoot guns the turn the arrive.
If you really only have 55 points to spend, buy some meltaguns, or something. There are a LOT of ways to fritter points away with CSM that don't involve an assault unit that will never assault.
I'd definitely agree with the consensus that they give penal legionnaires a serious run for their money for worst unit in the game at the moment.
JGrand wrote:If you want to run away from an objective, I'm fine with it. All I'm advocating is that they are at worst, a decent disruption unit.
Firstly, if you're deepstriking that close to an objective, what's the odds that they scatter? Also, they're guaranteed to be in by turn 4, so they're not exactly a surprise contester.
Secondly, what's the point of disruption? Yes, you manage to avert a couple of plasma guns for a turn, so what? Harassment units are terrible in 40k. If they weren't, then all guard players would run penal legionnaires, and sentinels. But they don't. Because they're terrible.
JGrand wrote:In addition, there are plenty of units that don't want to run, lest they risk losing heavy weapon shots or a solid vantage point. Again, points well spent.
You should always assume that your opponent is as competent as possible. A decent player wouldn't make a mistake like this.
JGrand wrote:Finally, if we want to go point for point, 3 Terminators is 95 points, and adding an additional terminator brings the total to 126. 2 MoN Mutilators is 122 points. Aside from those "awesome" combi-bolters, the Terminators are worse. The Mutilators are more survivable due to a higher toughness, have equal wounds and save, and have better close combat options.
But this doesn't make any sense. Firstly, 2 mutilators aren't THAT much better in close combat than terminators. Secondly, if you can't see the difference between the kind of damage caused by 3 BS4 combi-meltas and NOTHING when they drop in, then I'd question how much you've ever faced off against deepstrikers.
JGrand wrote:I don't mind taking some hits from Lasguns and Bolters shot by backfield objective campers....
Mutilators won't pay off every game, but lots of things don't.
Once again, if the only thing your opponent has to defend their backfield objectives is a few lasguns or bolters, they're doing things very, VERY wrong.
Secondly, yes, things don't need to pay off every game. That said, things that pay off practically never are still bad units.
In the end, it seems that in order to like mutilators...
Red Corsair wrote:The question still stands though, have you fielded a solo mutilator in the suggested fashion or are you speaking from pure theory?
... you're stuck between an argument from authority fallacy, or you believe that tiny data sets lead to objective truth.
Excuse me? I think speaking from experience has more merit then someone who has probably never seen the model in person on the table, let alone fielded one in a list. 61 points for a unit that grabs line breaker and forces something like say, one of your pricy as hell vanquishers to fire on it is very much worth the price considering you wouldn't even ID him with any weapon on that platform and he has reasonable odds to survive 200+ points worth of HS firepower, if that vanquisher has a mate guess what? you either ignore him and hope he doesn't wreck them both or you now waste 400+ points on a 61 point unit. If I ds 2 in separately, you now can't hit both. If your using guardsmen to turtle up because of this, your now losing the game in more then half the missions anyway as your too static. Oh wait, that basically sums up 30 or so of your games.
Of all the people to be dissing an unpopular unit choice I wouldn't have guessed it to be the guy who waits out the entirety of 5th to play mech vets and runs hellhounds over vendettas.
Actually I think I rolled a 5, but he had backed up a few inches by then.
That's what happens sometimes, against tau try finding a piece of LOS blocking terrain to gain LB if no good target presents itself. I have to ask though, what intercepted him? If it was a riptide then I would have to say he paid for himself in my opinion as now the riptide can't fire in his next turn and those things cost around quadruple the points. In the game where 30 FW shot him, think about all that fire he soaked and field units that are fast enough to take advantage of him. He won't pay off ever in a gun line chaos list as like in your second game, he may be the only target too often.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/30 18:38:59
That's what happens sometimes, against tau try finding a piece of LOS blocking terrain to gain LB if no good target presents itself. I have to ask though, what intercepted him? If it was a riptide then I would have to say he paid for himself in my opinion as now the riptide can't fire in his next turn and those things cost around quadruple the points. In the game where 30 FW shot him, think about all that fire he soaked and field units that are fast enough to take advantage of him. He won't pay off ever in a gun line chaos list as like in your second game, he may be the only target too often.
Well, like I said, at least with my typical list, I'm not sure this would ever really work well against Tau unless I got spectacularly lucky. My CSM lists tend to be super aggressive and there's almost never any backfield objective camping, but I don't have many DS units either. The issue with the first game (where all the FW shot him) was that he came in on turn 2. With the deployment we rolled and with the terrain set-up we had, he was literally the only thing the FW's could shoot at so he didn't even draw fire away from anything that game. It reminded me of the old Ron White joke; "I didn't know how many guys it would take to kick my arse, but I knew how many they were gonna use!" lol If he had come in a turn or two later he might actually have stood a better chance of properly drawing fire but then that's the risk you take with almost any DS unit.
EDIT:
Still waiting to hear how people manage to get these things all the way across the table without blowing points on a LR. No sarcasm. I would be really interested to hear that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 19:01:22
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Still waiting to hear how people manage to get these things all the way across the table without blowing points on a LR. No sarcasm. I would be really interested to hear that.
On foot. I've seen it done enough times that it's convinced me it's not a fluke.
It's something you really have to judge during deployment. If you're opponent is going to come at you, you set them up in your deployment zone and let them be the best counter-assault unit CSM has. If you have to go at your enemy, you deploy normally and just walk if you would benefit from the additional target saturation*. If they're going to be too far away from that (for example, a gunline in Hammer and Anvil), you'll have to deep strike.
* Don't make the assumption that you can and should get a unit to the enemy. No one gets to protect everything in their army, the enemy has a say in that. If Mutilators are high on the list of things to kill, they don't make it, if they are not, they do. Foot gets a bad rap for being immobile, but I've never seen someone who committed to moving an infantry unit be unable to do so while their unit was being ignored.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
So the answer is basically, "Very Carefully"? I guess it's just a difference in our local gaming scenes, but I just can't see that working here. By the time they've walked all the way across the board the game will either likely be over, OR something else will have already killed what they were going to go after.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Tycho wrote: By the time they've walked all the way across the board the game will either likely be over, OR something else will have already killed what they were going to go after.
I'm perplexed by this. It takes them 2 turns to get into potential range of the enemy. Your games are over in 2 turns?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Well, my first game last night was! lol I got crushed ... stupid marker lights ...
Really though, no, they are not usually over that fast. The problem is that while it only takes them 2 turns to move 12", most of the rest of my army has moved anywhere from 12-24" and more in some cases (Heldrake) so they are getting passed up by things. Then you take into account the fact that the enemy isn't going to just chill right on the forward most edge of their deployment zone and let these things ramble right up to them AND the fact that you likely will need to either move them through cover and/or screen them and by the time they've gotten to within charge range of a unit it's turn 3 or 4. My local meta plays a lot of fast highly maneuverable armies (although Tau are starting to become gun-line armies), so I am just having trouble imaging catching anything with these. It just feels like you would have to set your entire army up around delivering them.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
If your opponent is constantly running away from a 183 point unit, doesn't that say something about that unit? And no, you don't need to move them up in any kind of cover.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
I'd be curious to see what list you are running them in. Like I said, I think my two big issues were the Tau (bad match-up for this strategy), and the fact that I'm not sure how well my list would really mesh with them if I were to start them on the board and walk them up. What else do you normally run with them in that case? I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm just curious to see how others are attempting it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 21:53:06
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.
If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.
Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon
3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
3 solo mutilators
Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.
10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
Total: 1997 points.
Turn 1: The spawn move up 12 inches into cover, and he is immediately getting pressured. Oblits and mutis are in reserve. So he only gets to shoot your spawn or shoot your troops. Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.
Turn 2: Bring down the pain.
Deep strike in the mutis and the Obliterators. Comms relay lets you reroll to come in from reserves, so most should make it. Be careful with your oblits cos those are expensive, but be aggressive with your mutilators. Land those things behind his army, even if that puts them near the table edge. Your oblits can now go to town and shoot up high priority targets, then the chaos spawn charges in and ties down even more targets. The rest of the troops unload from Rhinos, run, etc to get into position for turn 3 strike.
At the end of turn 2, your opponent has nurgle chaos spawn tied up with his frontal units, he got shot up by the oblits, he also has 7 oblits near his army and 3 mutilators in his backfield. And the rest of your army is pressing in from his front. He has nowhere to run. And with your entire army in his face, mutilators may not be his top priority. In fact, because your termi lord is with your 3 man oblit, that will be the main target over anything else.
Turn 3, either you win, or you die, cos everything charges in! lol
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/01 00:46:21
Tried running them via proxy, was dismayed by the results.
Walking them is a laugh. If you are moving toward a gunline, they won't live to get close. If the enemy is assaulty or hordes, they will get the charge and you will waste your big hits killing 3 orks/gants/guards and then die to the torrent of hits.
Deep-striking them is a crap shoot. CSM no longer have any DS guidance. While terminators can still shoot combi-weapons at rear armor or rapid-fire after a bad scatter, rolling poorly for Mutilators means they will get shot to death or spend the rest of the game slow-chasing a target.
Getting them a Land Raider is the least bad choice, except you end up with a ridiculously small, point-heavy deathstar with a crappy volume of attacks. It's actually better to have zerkers or even slightly beefed up chaos marines in there, as they can score.
In Boxing matches, you actually get paid to take a dive and make the other guy look good.
In Warhammer 40K, you're expected to pay cash out of your pocket for the privilege of having Marines and IG trample all over your Xenos/Chaos.
Sephyr wrote: orks/gants/guards and then die to the torrent of hits.
The torrent of hits that wound on a 6 and are saved on a 2? That's 72 WS 4 attacks to average a single wound.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Has no one mentioned, 2 Pfist is a Pfist with +1 attack? They're Termies that can't shoot (not even overwatch), and the benefit they gain is....2 power weapons at S4. No at all worth it. 55pts can add 2 Cult Marines, which, assuming FNP, means his armor save is one better, and he get way more power weapons than he needs but can't sweep run or get a rhino/jump pack, so...
What are you actually gaining?
They aren't atrocious, but their value is, because you gain almost nothing for your points.
