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cod3x wrote:
Has no one mentioned, 2 Pfist is a Pfist with +1 attack? They're Termies that can't shoot (not even overwatch), and the benefit they gain is....2 power weapons at S4. No at all worth it. 55pts can add 2 Cult Marines, which, assuming FNP, means his armor save is one better, and he get way more power weapons than he needs but can't sweep run or get a rhino/jump pack, so...

What are you actually gaining?

They aren't atrocious, but their value is, because you gain almost nothing for your points.

Did you really just skip all the points in this thread and post this gem? No...I'm sure you are the first to consider all of that... all the people who have had actual success in actual games are somehow missing your salient points...



To JGrand and DE. I very much agree with JGrand's Lone Wolf strat, seems like the clearest way to use them.

Disruption units win games. Often they do nothing, but sometimes they rather uniquely win games in ways your others units aren't capable of doing. If taking a 55 to 61 point unit will win me just 1 game out of 10 more, its completely worth it.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.

If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.

Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon

5 Nurgle chaos spawn.
5 Nurgle chaos spawn.
5 Nurgle chaos spawn.

3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)

3 solo mutilators

Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.

10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun

Total: 1997 points.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.

If we are going by that list that you provided, I am not sure how this can be done as you don't include any Rhinos

Sometimes, there are units that are just not worth shooting at, and other times, there are units that you just can't get a squad over to assault and kill. That's when a deep strike mutilator might come in handy.

Take that squad of 5 marine scouts on the second floor of a ruins sniping at you from turn 1. You either take them out or endure them sniping at you for 5 to 7 turns. Those sniper rifle shots add up!

But they are on 2nd floor and in ruins! Shooting at them is a waste of time. Against dedicated shooting, they can go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Assaulting them is the best option. But are you going to divert your big combat squad of doom over to climb up to second floor of a ruin just to smash one puny scout squad? How many points is one scout squad?

So, that's where the Mutilator comes in handy. Its 61 points. He deep strikes in right on ground floor. Next turn, he climbs up to second floor and beats the snot out of that scout squad. So, you sent a 61 point throw away unit to deal with his irritating back field camping unit. Not only did you clear out a troop that could be really irritating if allowed to live, you are still in a position to score line breaker after that, and you did it efficiently, allowing the bulk of your army to go concentrate on something else.

Of course, he could spend the resources to kill your mutilator, but now he is diverting shooting resources to kill it, which saves your other stuff from being shot at.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
They might have a place in a beta strike army. And there is nothing to stop you from fielding 3 solo mutilators and another 3 groups of obliterators for a massive deep strike attack.

If you want to play an army which makes better use of mutilators. Try this, it might work.

Nurgle Terminator Lord with power fist and Combi weapon

5 Nurgle chaos spawn.
5 Nurgle chaos spawn.
5 Nurgle chaos spawn.

3 Nurgle Obliterators (veterans not needed cos Lord gives fearless)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)
2 Nurgle Oblits (vets not needed cos they will focus on the oblit squad with the lord)

3 solo mutilators

Aegis Defense line with Comms relay.

10 cultists
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun
10 CSM, replace with ccw, vets, meltagun

Total: 1997 points.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Put your troops in stuff like Rhinos. Now he only gets to pop Rhinos or shoot at T6W3 spawn in his first turn.

If we are going by that list that you provided, I am not sure how this can be done as you don't include any Rhinos

Haha, my original list had them. I took it away. If he wants to shoot at a 13 point CSM with a 3+ armor save, he is free to do so as well.

Post removed. --Janthkin

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I wouldn't attach characters to them. Part of their effectiveness comes from target saturation. As soon as you start making these guys into "the unit to deal with first" they're going to lose out.

That's just the question though. I've got a decent amount of confidence in them once they are in CC, the trick is getting them there. Any thoughts on what a sorc or other HQ choice could bring to the equation? What about infiltrate through Ahriman/Huron? I'm not as familiar with the psychic disciplines, but is there anything that can be done to eliminate the weaknesses?

I mean let's list out the specific problems and work to mitigate them by priority. I reeaaally want to convert some, but I'm against building just to put it on the shelf.

Problems:
1. SnP- keeps them from sweeping combat and running.
2. Hard to mobilize- Options are walk/DS/Landraider
3. Small unit- 3 max
4. ???

I could almost consider going the opposite direction of DarknessEternal, and do Lord(Or special character), sorc, and 3x mutilators for a reasonable deathstar. Maybe ally some demons for another unit/modifier?

I am inclined to say that a single mutilator might well be a good use of 61 pts in some of the lists that i make. Right now I am using units of 3 nurglings (45pts w/ inflitrate) to always get (or always try to get) line breaker.

A mutilator is significantly tougher and more dangerous than said nurglings. I have only really suffered at the hands of a mutilator on one occasion and that was in fact at the hands of 6 that were infiltrated. On paper they dont looks so good but i am willing to try using only 1 as a irritant/distraction unit.

Humblesteve wrote:


I could almost consider going the opposite direction of DarknessEternal, and do Lord(Or special character), sorc, and 3x mutilators for a reasonable deathstar. Maybe ally some demons for another unit/modifier?

Another option I've played around with in my head is loading them up with a Nurgle Lord on a palanquin, plus a Nurgle sorceror, and loading it all up in a Land Raider. Pretty nasty stack of T5 wounds + maybe Endurance or something.

If you are loading them on a land raider anyway, might as well skip nurgle and go with a killy mark like Khorne. After all, having them in a Land raider means you will most likely get the charge off.

When you start adding charecters to it, you have a deathstar or mini deathstar, so stuff you charge aren't likely to survive, so the slow and purposeful is irrelevant.

Also, if they have a sorceror with them, then they get assault grenades because of the sorceror. So, negates them charging at troops in cover. Same goes for a Lord in power armor (just don't change the lord to termi armor because then it will lose its assault grenades).

Putting two charecters into a unit is really putting a lot of eggs in one basket though.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
so the slow and purposeful is irrelevant.

Slow and Purposeful is almost always irrelevant anyway. I've never seen anything break away from Mutilators only to come back and do useful things.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Also, if they have a sorceror with them, then they get assault grenades because of the sorceror. So, negates them charging at troops in cover.

Grenades are by model, not by unit.

So as a Space Wolf player, I routinely run 2~3 Lone Wolf units (TDA/SS/CF) every game I play because I know the value of a disruption unit... more so one with a 2+/3++/5+++, 2W, Fearless unit.

There isn't a way to get Maulers to the same level for around 85 pts?

I say go big, or go home. Deep strike those dudes and put them about 9~ out, to save them from the worst scatters, but within threat range on the next turn. It's the same thing as my Lone Wolves getting into combat turn 3 versus gun lines. And trust me, do I know about some rage inducing moments when I'm running 3 Lone Wolves at 2K versus gun lines who start with "Feh, *LASCANNONS*" and then after realizing they are Eternal Warriors with 3++, by Turn 3 they may have killed one and are crying!

If you can get the same mileage out of mutilators, I'd say go for it!

My only concern is that they got the short end of the stick in terms of mutilators. At least Mandrakes have, arguably, some of the coolest models in the game!

Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).

How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.

The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).

If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.

For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.

 sennacherib wrote:

"Grenades are by model, not by unit".

so what your saying is that if my nurgle lord with blight grenades is in a squad of cultists and both he and the other members of his unit get charged by someone, the blight grenade only reduces the charge bonus against the lord. is that correct.

"assault grenades are by model, defensive grenades are not.

rage is by model, counterattack is by unit."

 sennacherib wrote:


"assault grenades are by model, defensive grenades are not.

rage is by model, counterattack is by unit."

Sorry this is off topic but i just want to be absolutely clear. As long as one member of the unit has defensive grenades, then the entire unit does.??

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).

How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.

The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).

If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.

For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Use mobility boosting devices (infiltrate/DS/etc) and get them in a good position. Proceed to threaten a flank with a mini deathstar. I think everybody's concern is that the enemy will shoot the piss out of them though. Rather than position and rely on the sorc, I think I would aim for around terrain or in some kind of blind spot. Out in the open may be the only option though.

I suppose the best defense for getting hammered is over saturation. I would say pair them with bikes, oblits, raptors, etc and time it so everything shows up at approximately the same time. They can't possibly shoot 40% of your army at once. No matter what something will get through to a gunline. Against a CC army you play this same thing but as a counter strike. This will leave a gap for your troops to move up to drop a second strike. Maybe add that landing pad dealy to give you some accuracy?

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has anyone given any thought to putting them in a dreadclaw? Seems like it would be pretty effective at higher points levels.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually, one thing not discussed here. Not sure whether that might work (I myself never tried this).
How about a squad of 3 mutilators (basic), with a terminator sorceror level 3 telephathy. Deep strike them in 12 inches away, then start casting dangerous telephathy spells.
The 3 mutilators here basically serve as a body guard to the sorceror. They won't dare to charge a unit at it unless they have a dedicated cc unit. Even if they do, its probably an even fight (Sorceror has force weapon and termi armor).
If they ignore the unit, then the sorceror is in range of his entire army backline to cast nasty telephaty spells like puppet master, etc. And if we get the opportunity to charge something for an easy win, we can do that too.
For just 165 points, 3 mutilators can provide more bodyguard protection than anything else I can think of in a CSM army, short of putting the sorceror with 5 chaos spawn.

so that is a 300 point unit at least.

You DS in and pray they dont have any str8+ AP2 blast weapons. Then you pray they dont have too many str 8 AP2 weapons. Each lascannon wound that gets by the 5++ is enough to force a panic check.
Then you dont need to have a dedicated CC unit. A tarpit unit will do. The unit has only 11 attacks at WS4. They ignore armor, but most tarpit units dont care much about armor ignoring attacks do they. Tarpitting will prevent you from casting spells.

If a real unit does come by, your sorcerer HAS to challenge as there are no other characters, so he can easily get locked in with some guy who will whoop him good. An MC for instance will probably eat him before he gets to strike, and then your mutilators are testing on Ld6 to avoid getting cut down.

It's 300 points of non fearless yuck.


Sorcs should be cheap and on a bike. Then you can keep up with spawn or go with bikes. Even if they are with regular marines, you still run them on a bike for T5 and the ability to run away.

Lone Wolf. That is what people are not thinking about. They work for SW's despite similar limitations, they also work fine for Mutilators.

They aren't great, but I used to use 3 singleton Mutilators and found them to usually be worth their points. List composition matters, inmy list they were a minor threat and therefore often were able to complete their task (disruption and harassment).

Lone Wolf. That is what people are not thinking about.

If you mean the tactic of using Muties in one man units - yeah, it has been thought about. We covered that a page or two back.

Tycho wrote:

Lone Wolf. That is what people are not thinking about.

If you mean the tactic of using Muties in one man units - yeah, it has been thought about. We covered that a page or two back.

Must have been missed by a lot of folks, as I keep seeing people say there are no uses for Mutilators. That role fits them perfectly.

Must have been missed by a lot of folks, as I keep seeing people say there are no uses for Mutilators. That role fits them perfectly.

No. If you want the particulars you'll have to go back and actually read the entire thread. Suffice it to say there are many who would disagree with that.

so that is a 300 point unit at least.

You DS in and pray they dont have any str8+ AP2 blast weapons. Then you pray they dont have too many str 8 AP2 weapons. Each lascannon wound that gets by the 5++ is enough to force a panic check.
Then you dont need to have a dedicated CC unit. A tarpit unit will do. The unit has only 11 attacks at WS4. They ignore armor, but most tarpit units dont care much about armor ignoring attacks do they. Tarpitting will prevent you from casting spells.

If a real unit does come by, your sorcerer HAS to challenge as there are no other characters, so he can easily get locked in with some guy who will whoop him good. An MC for instance will probably eat him before he gets to strike, and then your mutilators are testing on Ld6 to avoid getting cut down.

It's 300 points of non fearless yuck.

Quoted for agreement. That just doesn't seem efficient. I could see a fluffy use for it, but if you're looking for competitive options, I'm not sure that's the way to go. I have some more games scheduled this weekend (this time NOT against Tau lol) so I'm going to try the tele-mutie trick again because I'm still really curious to see on of these actually do something. I'll report back again like last time, but of the uses suggested in this thread, that's still the only one I can even partially get behind.

Must have been missed by a lot of folks, as I keep seeing people say there are no uses for Mutilators. That role fits them perfectly.


No. If you want the particulars you'll have to go back and actually read the entire thread. Suffice it to say there are many who would disagree with that.

I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works.

Or just throw a melta bomb on a IG Sgt and watch him blow up your mutilator on a 4+ ...

Tyrs13 wrote:
Or just throw a melta bomb on a IG Sgt and watch him blow up your mutilator on a 4+ ...

You mean watch him do one wound on your T5 Muti on a 4+, 2+, and failed 5++, of course...right?

How is it you are using a melta bomb in cc against a non-monstrous creature, non-vehicle? Maybe I missed something...

 calypso2ts wrote:
How is it you are using a melta bomb in cc against a non-monstrous creature, non-vehicle? Maybe I missed something...

You can throw them 8" now right? I assumed that's what he meant.

Don't think you can throw melta bombs ... And yeah, you can't use melta bombs on infantry.

Also, a Sorceror in termi armor with a force weapon is no slouch at fighting. Since its termi armor. Say I use a force axe. So yeah, I may strike last, but most things will bounce off the termi armor anyway. When I do strike, I am hitting you 3 times with a str 5 AP 2 weapon that deals instant death. You better hope I miss. Against any infantry charecter outside of people with eternal warrior, I actually have a pretty good chance of killing because of the AP2 instant death. Even against a guy with a power fist, chances are we kill each other simultaneously.

Monstrous creatures can't challenge unless they are charecters. (Not all of them are). Even if its a charecter, well the sorceror in termi armor still gets his 5++ save and he still causes instant death if he survives to strike back. Its not exactly that one sided a fight.

And Telephathy spells include invisibility? If I get that and cast that on the unit, then good luck hitting me lol.

Even assuming the sorceror dies. Next turn, the monstrous creature is facing 3 mutilators with 3 attacks each. I give good chances they will kill off the monstrous creature (unless its some tooled up Greater Daemon).

I think telephathy also has a spell that basically freezes a unit in place. That's a nice spell to either lock down a unit so he can't run away from you, or lock down a unit which you think is going to be problems in close combat.

In any case, why is it assumed that there will be some big scary CC unit conveniently right next to this unit who will charge it and kill it? You deep strike in this unit, you choose where you want to deep stirke. Surely you aren't going to deep srike this right next to a unit which you know will kill you next turn? It comes in on turn 2. I reckon by then, the big scary cc units are all at least at mid field bearing down on your line or mixing it up with your midfield unit. Deep strike it in his backline which will be the shooty stuff, and the vehicles. I don't think there's any shooty unit that would dare to charge this unit, and vehicles will be running away from this unit lol.

 Exergy wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

"Grenades are by model, not by unit".

so what your saying is that if my nurgle lord with blight grenades is in a squad of cultists and both he and the other members of his unit get charged by someone, the blight grenade only reduces the charge bonus against the lord. is that correct.

assault grenades are by model, defensive grenades are not.

rage is by model, counterattack is by unit.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Also, a Sorceror in termi armor with a force weapon is no slouch at fighting. Since its termi armor. Say I use a force axe. So yeah, I may strike last, but most things will bounce off the termi armor anyway. When I do strike, I am hitting you 3 times with a str 5 AP 2 weapon that deals instant death. You better hope I miss. Against any infantry charecter outside of people with eternal warrior, I actually have a pretty good chance of killing because of the AP2 instant death. Even against a guy with a power fist, chances are we kill each other simultaneously.

Monstrous creatures can't challenge unless they are charecters. (Not all of them are). Even if its a charecter, well the sorceror in termi armor still gets his 5++ save and he still causes instant death if he survives to strike back. Its not exactly that one sided a fight.

3 attacks at ws3 is pretty bad. The force axe is nasty against multiwounded guys, but he does throw out many attacks. There are a number of things that strike at inititive at AP2.

Even things with a powerfist, they often have a ++ save as well. When you are hitting on 4+, then wounding on 3+ or 4+, that isnt even 100% to kill a terminator sergeant, much less one rocking a storm shield. Put another way, the sorc has the combat poential of a singular meganob, not to be confused with a megaboss.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Even assuming the sorceror dies. Next turn, the monstrous creature is facing 3 mutilators with 3 attacks each. I give good chances they will kill off the monstrous creature (unless its some tooled up Greater Daemon).

Except that if the sorc dies, the mutes have to take a break test. They make that only 40% of the time(after losing by 2). Otherwise they are going to run and likely get cut down.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

In any case, why is it assumed that there will be some big scary CC unit conveniently right next to this unit who will charge it and kill it? You deep strike in this unit, you choose where you want to deep stirke. Surely you aren't going to deep srike this right next to a unit which you know will kill you next turn? It comes in on turn 2. I reckon by then, the big scary cc units are all at least at mid field bearing down on your line or mixing it up with your midfield unit. Deep strike it in his backline which will be the shooty stuff, and the vehicles. I don't think there's any shooty unit that would dare to charge this unit, and vehicles will be running away from this unit lol.

scary assault units often have a transport delivery system or are jump/bike/beast, meaning they can reliably threaten a 20" bubble. With likely DS deviation either you arent going to be in range to do much to the backfield units or you are probably in their assault range.