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I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works

Multiple people have disagreed with it and I even tried it in the suggested fashion and reported back. I am of the opinion that the "lone wolf" thing is something that really needs a lot of luck to work.


So anyway, as promised, I tried the lone wolf thing again this weekend as well as the "3 stooges" version where a squad of three start on the board together.

Lone Wolf attempt 1:
Mutie has MoK and teleports in on turn 3 behind some objective camping C:SM scouts armed with bolt pistol and cc weapons. He actually landed perfectly (no scatter). I was about 3" away from them. He ended up dropping a wound on the way in, and died in CC. Killed one scout.

Lone Wolf 2:
Mutie has MoK again. Teleports next to some CSM Havocs but dies due to perils. My opponent allows me to re-roll the scatter and the mutie ends up about 8" away. Four lascannons to the face later he's dead. I guess he effectively drew some fire that game, but I feel like 55 points is a lot to spend on something that's just going to draw fire.

3 Stooges attempt 1:
So this one is probably not the best test because I didn't reconfigure my list too much to account for them. I just cut a bunch of upgrades and slapped in a squad of 3 muties. The problem is that my list is a super fast high pressure aggresive list. Land Raiders, mauler fiends, heldrakes, raptors, etc. I was playing a friend who likes to play really tough games so it's not as jerky as it sounds. lol Anyway, pretty much all of my army passed them up on the way to the other side's deployment area (gun line Tau). They didn't die that game, but they didn't get to kill anything (too slow), and they were too low on the threat ladder to even get shot at. They just got ignored.

Stooges 2:
Made a Nurgle list for this attempt and walked them up field behind a ton of zombies. This worked a lot better as they actually got fairly close. I was playing BA though, and he brought in a squad of jump packed DC. They pretty much wrecked the zombies (I probably should have taken more) AND the Muties in short order. So in this game, the squad was good for tying up a unit of DC for a little while, but in the grand scheme of things that made little difference to the game.

Stooges 3:
Played against DA. I have a list that sometimes include two Forge Fiends. I will often bubble wrap those with cultists. This time I decided to try and run each fiend with it's own body guard of 3 MoK muties. I figured MoK might be the better choice since their role would be to receive assaults to try and defend the FFs. One squad had to deal with Belial and a squad of knights dropping in next to them. The muties on that side got hammered so hard I wouldn't even count them as a speed bump. He made a disordered charge so he hit the FF on that side as well.
On the other side, a squad of 5 regular standard issue DW terminators showed up. These were successfully tar pitted for about two turns before they went down. They took two terminators with them.

SO, TL;DR:

Yeah, I'm still not sold. I feel like there's enough plasma running around these days that this unit isn't the threat it might otherwise have been. If you DS them so much has to go right that it's like hitting the lottery if it works, and even then, this really is a unit that at best, is only going to disrupt or draw fire for a turn or so before it dies. I guess 55-65 pts for a suicide unit isn't too bad, but I don't feel like they are effective enough to warrant even that. They are too easy to ignore if you walk them across the board (they are just soooo slow), and too easy to kill if a DS goes wrong.

EDIT:

I meant to add that the one thing I didn't try, was to DS a squad of 3. That I could see working better as it's a much bigger threat and it would survive longer and do some real damage. The only problem is that the cost of that squad is now competing with a Heldrake and I'm taking the Heldrake almost every single time. I won't be able to play again for a while, but I might try that anyway just to see what happens.

I just came across some hitech terrorizers that could do a nice job as mutilators. Lone wolf strategy here I come

Tycho wrote:

I haven't seen anyone that really disagrees with that, just a bunch of people who clearly don't understand what that role is and how it works

Multiple people have disagreed with it and I even tried it in the suggested fashion and reported back. I am of the opinion that the "lone wolf" thing is something that really needs a lot of luck to work.


So anyway, as promised, I tried the lone wolf thing again this weekend as well as the "3 stooges" version where a squad of three start on the board together.

Lone Wolf attempt 1:
Mutie has MoK and teleports in on turn 3 behind some objective camping C:SM scouts armed with bolt pistol and cc weapons. He actually landed perfectly (no scatter). I was about 3" away from them. He ended up dropping a wound on the way in, and died in CC. Killed one scout.

Lone Wolf 2:
Mutie has MoK again. Teleports next to some CSM Havocs but dies due to perils. My opponent allows me to re-roll the scatter and the mutie ends up about 8" away. Four lascannons to the face later he's dead. I guess he effectively drew some fire that game, but I feel like 55 points is a lot to spend on something that's just going to draw fire.

3 Stooges attempt 1:
So this one is probably not the best test because I didn't reconfigure my list too much to account for them. I just cut a bunch of upgrades and slapped in a squad of 3 muties. The problem is that my list is a super fast high pressure aggresive list. Land Raiders, mauler fiends, heldrakes, raptors, etc. I was playing a friend who likes to play really tough games so it's not as jerky as it sounds. lol Anyway, pretty much all of my army passed them up on the way to the other side's deployment area (gun line Tau). They didn't die that game, but they didn't get to kill anything (too slow), and they were too low on the threat ladder to even get shot at. They just got ignored.

Stooges 2:
Made a Nurgle list for this attempt and walked them up field behind a ton of zombies. This worked a lot better as they actually got fairly close. I was playing BA though, and he brought in a squad of jump packed DC. They pretty much wrecked the zombies (I probably should have taken more) AND the Muties in short order. So in this game, the squad was good for tying up a unit of DC for a little while, but in the grand scheme of things that made little difference to the game.

Stooges 3:
Played against DA. I have a list that sometimes include two Forge Fiends. I will often bubble wrap those with cultists. This time I decided to try and run each fiend with it's own body guard of 3 MoK muties. I figured MoK might be the better choice since their role would be to receive assaults to try and defend the FFs. One squad had to deal with Belial and a squad of knights dropping in next to them. The muties on that side got hammered so hard I wouldn't even count them as a speed bump. He made a disordered charge so he hit the FF on that side as well.
On the other side, a squad of 5 regular standard issue DW terminators showed up. These were successfully tar pitted for about two turns before they went down. They took two terminators with them.

SO, TL;DR:

Yeah, I'm still not sold. I feel like there's enough plasma running around these days that this unit isn't the threat it might otherwise have been. If you DS them so much has to go right that it's like hitting the lottery if it works, and even then, this really is a unit that at best, is only going to disrupt or draw fire for a turn or so before it dies. I guess 55-65 pts for a suicide unit isn't too bad, but I don't feel like they are effective enough to warrant even that. They are too easy to ignore if you walk them across the board (they are just soooo slow), and too easy to kill if a DS goes wrong.

EDIT:

I meant to add that the one thing I didn't try, was to DS a squad of 3. That I could see working better as it's a much bigger threat and it would survive longer and do some real damage. The only problem is that the cost of that squad is now competing with a Heldrake and I'm taking the Heldrake almost every single time. I won't be able to play again for a while, but I might try that anyway just to see what happens.

Problem here is during your lone wolf attempts you didn't listen to the recommended advice and give them MoN.... Mark of Khorne is awful, had you been T5 I doubt you would have did to those lucky pot shots from the SM scouts. Maybe post your usual list up here and I can get a better grasp of why your having so much trouble with the tactic. Either way I am glad you are trying them out, I just feel like they won't work in your standard list possibly, I will try and get a game in with them this weekend and I will share my results.

Aw hell. My bad. Wherever it says MoK it should read MoN. I only gave them the Khorne mark in my last game. My bad. I had Khorne on the brain this morning (working up a World Eaters list). Sorry for the confusion.

You're right that with my regular list they really don't work. I predicted as much in a previous post, but wanted to try it anyway. I would actually like to see a list from those who say they've used them and had success. So far, non of those people have even posted any specific examples ...

EDIT:

My issue with them is that it feels like you need to build the list around them and I'm not sure they are worth that much attention.

Gee, how did the mutilator die fighting scouts? lol Bad luck and rolled a 1? And how come only killed 1? Only 1 attack hit? Once in combat, should have easily bested that scout squad. :(

Basically yes. He SHOULD have bested them, but my ability to roll 1's is near legendary. After the test I ran earlier in the week where the lone Mutie trashed a Kabalite squad I figured the Scouts would be a sure thing. Dropping a wound on the way in didn't help either.

Tycho wrote:
Aw hell. My bad. Wherever it says MoK it should read MoN. I only gave them the Khorne mark in my last game. My bad. I had Khorne on the brain this morning (working up a World Eaters list). Sorry for the confusion.

You're right that with my regular list they really don't work. I predicted as much in a previous post, but wanted to try it anyway. I would actually like to see a list from those who say they've used them and had success. So far, non of those people have even posted any specific examples ...

EDIT:

My issue with them is that it feels like you need to build the list around them and I'm not sure they are worth that much attention.

Well I apologies for the lack of results, I have been swamped IRL and haven't been able to get a game in for a while now. Here is an example of a list that utilizes them:

70-ADL-coms relay

158-(2)-MoN Oblits Vets

158-(2)-MoN Oblits Vets

115-Auto Las pred

170- helturkey

170- helturkey

144-(4)-MoN spawn

175-MoN Lord- Bike, B Mace, Combi-(your choice) Melta B, AoDG

165-(5) PM-Rhino, 2 flamers

175-(5) PM-Rhino, 2 melta

61-MoN Mutie

61-MoN Mutie

Demons

190-GUO

90-(10) PB

90-(6) NB

1992

Very Fluffy I think and with the comes relay on turn 2 you should have the spawn+lord, GUO,2 HD, 2 solo muties and possibly PB units or oblits depending on how you reserve all coming in. This is where I like them as they can be guard dogs/tarpits for the PB or when DS they become additional threats to the back field who wants to deal with the GUO and spawn/Lord.

I suspect that the lack of results has more to do with the difference in our local metas than anything else. The types of list I usually face just aren't afraid of something like the Mutilators, so finding a good target for them is often challenging.

Your list looks very interesting. It looks like it's set up more to kill other armies to prevent them from claiming objectives than it is to actually claim them itself. Is that how you play it? Also, where does the Pred. fit in? Thanks for posting that!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Gee, how did the mutilator die fighting scouts? lol Bad luck and rolled a 1? And how come only killed 1? Only 1 attack hit? Once in combat, should have easily bested that scout squad. :(

without VotLW or MoN these guys are neither that killy or that durable.

4 attacks on the charge, half will miss, and then will dual maul you are killing 1.66 (1 or 2) so one is still pretty likely.
The scouts on the other hand have a roughly 85% chance to put a wound on him(2 close combat weapons).
So it is unlucky, but 10 scouts are probably going to get through a mutilator. (it is gonna take a while, but eventually)

As they should. 10 scouts costs more than a mute. 5 scouts and the mute probably wins, but how fast and by what margin are still variable. Roll poorly and he fails his mission in epic fashion.

Roll poorly and he fails his mission in epic fashion.

Which is exactly what I keep running into . So much has to go so perfectly that it seems like either people are exaggerating their success, their local meta is drastically different, OR there's one little trick that seems so obvious to the people using them that they haven't mentioned it yet and you and I are just missing it. Speaking for myself, it wouldn't be the first time I missed something super easy to spot. lol

To be honest, I have had more success with Mutilators killing vehicles over anything else. There was one game I played where a lone mutilator managed to charge and kill a landraider with dual chain fists.

Another game where another lone mutilator charged and took out a lascannon razorback.

To be honest, I have had more success with Mutilators killing vehicles over anything else. There was one game I played where a lone mutilator managed to charge and kill a landraider with dual chain fists.

Another game where another lone mutilator charged and took out a lascannon razorback.

Son of a B*&^H. lol THAT might be the "obvious trick" I mentioned earlier. That's a way better use for them IMO. Unfortunately, I'm the only one at my LGS that still brings vehicles on a regular basis. I can definitely see a place for them in going after vehicles though. 55 points to knock out a tri-las predator or crack a Rhino or two isn't too shabby and seems much easier to accomplish than charging them into infantry. I feel stupid for not realizing that sooner!

Met definitely makes a difference, some armies are awesome at MSU and because of that nature don't mind shooting these guys down, while other armies will have to dedicate much more to them.


In regards to the list I posted, well all my armies follow the same strategy really. Kill their troops first then grab objectives. I find this to be the easiest way to win most scenarios, and don't be fooled, all those units in my list are a PITA to shoot off objectives. The demon units will get shrouding behind the aegis and infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the game with units that won't run and have a 2++ behind the aegis or going to ground in area terrain. Mean while the rest of your army is built to disrupt and contest with extremely resilient offensive units. I find 4 fearless scoring units fine in 1850-2000 pt games, you just need to place enough forward preasure to force you opponent into ignoring your troops.

I love chaos predators, it can be placed behind the ADL or in a ruin and just snipe enemy vehicles all game.

 Red Corsair wrote:
...infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the....

I thought swarms could not hold objectives - did I miss something, that might be a holdover from 5th edition.

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
...infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the....

I thought swarms could not hold objectives - did I miss something, that might be a holdover from 5th edition.

Far as I knew swarm was a USR now, not a unit type in 6th.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
...infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the....

I thought swarms could not hold objectives - did I miss something, that might be a holdover from 5th edition.

Far as I knew swarm was a USR now, not a unit type in 6th.

Read the USR. I made the same mistake, Swarms still cannot hold objectives.

 McNinja wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
...infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the....

I thought swarms could not hold objectives - did I miss something, that might be a holdover from 5th edition.

Far as I knew swarm was a USR now, not a unit type in 6th.

Read the USR. I made the same mistake, Swarms still cannot hold objectives.

Hmmm, which page is it one for future reference?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
...infiltrating the nurglings means you should have two objectives starting the....

I thought swarms could not hold objectives - did I miss something, that might be a holdover from 5th edition.

Far as I knew swarm was a USR now, not a unit type in 6th.

Read the USR. I made the same mistake, Swarms still cannot hold objectives.

Hmmm, which page is it one for future reference?

Page 123 in regards to Scoring and Denial units. Wish it were otherwise, I have 12 Ripper bases that would love to see some table time.

Thanks mate, in that case just swap the NB for another 10 PB in my list above

In my matches against armies that fielded Muitilators they have never reached close combat, ever.

One DE Ravager + well... anything IDs them for breakfast.

RancidHate wrote:
In my matches against armies that fielded Muitilators they have never reached close combat, ever.

One DE Ravager + well... anything IDs them for breakfast.

You must have missed the 300 times it has been suggested to give them Mark of Nurgle, making such a scenario impossible.


Also, one of the primary purposes of a disruption unit is to get shot at. If you can have the opponent commit two or more units to removing a 61 point unit, that unit has done its job, even if its dead. Occasionally, terrain and circumstances will allow the unit to steal VPs, and then you just got (or denied) VPs with a 61 point unit. That's how you win games, my friends.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

RancidHate wrote:
In my matches against armies that fielded Muitilators they have never reached close combat, ever.

One DE Ravager + well... anything IDs them for breakfast.

You must have missed the 300 times it has been suggested to give them Mark of Nurgle, making such a scenario impossible.


Also, one of the primary purposes of a disruption unit is to get shot at. If you can have the opponent commit two or more units to removing a 61 point unit, that unit has done its job, even if its dead. Occasionally, terrain and circumstances will allow the unit to steal VPs, and then you just got (or denied) VPs with a 61 point unit. That's how you win games, my friends.

Meh, I suppose I should've mentioned that I tabled the opponent that brought them in 3 separate matches and, that the opponent was tactically unwise enough to spend the Mark of Nurgle points on them. I concede that had he spent the 15 little points, they would be much harder to deal with as 6 5+inv saves are, in reality if not mathematically, more than twice as difficult to punch through as 3 5+inv saves.