Faeit 212 site removed

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**Zweischneid**

puma713 wrote:
YouTube post by Naftka here. Not much information in the video, but he did say he would be posting to video in the future.

And who owns YouTube?

Get your own hosting and build a website you own, would be my advice. With the following he has, he'd be a top-blog back in no time at all... free from the whims of Google (Tumblr, whatever).

**Nem**

puma713 wrote:
There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

I would like to see this

I understand GW wanting to protect their work. They have that right, and I won't blame them for exercising it.

However, I do think this is hurting GW more than helping them. I currently do not play Fantasy, though have been thinking about it. A good while back I bought some HighE figures cheap, and was considering buying more on there imminent release, now Faeit gave me news, hyped up the release and generally got me interested, without this GW has not done anything to entice me to buy this army.

Really, these sites really hype up GW products and I’m sure help sales. IMO I would go as far as massively helping sales - In the case of Tau how many less pre-orders would there have been if people didn't hear rumors about how good/ bad they could be? I would not preorder a expensive model with no idea on potential (Unless it looked really awesome).

**Angelic_Scars**

ForCalth wrote:
Hello everyone who has commented on this thread.

...

However, when I hear people saying things like "GW is a company of fascist ", and that they won't be giving them any more money, I get pretty aggravated. There are large numbers of people in the upper echelons of GW that do want what's best for the hobby and don't just want to screw over the entire community. After hearing about the more recent lawsuits by Games Workshop, I was talking with someone (I will not reveal his, or her, name, but you will all recognize this person from the pages of white dwarf and the online newsletter), and they share many of the views that have been expressed about the way GW doesn't seem to care for its customer base, past simply taking their money in ever-increasing amounts. What I am trying to say is that the people who are actually involved with the hobby side of things are often of the same opinion as you, and have expressed their own concerns about the ways GW is running things, including things like their crackdown on third party bit makers and blogs. I do understand that they are required to protect their copyrights when faced with repeated infringement, and that what people like Natfka are doing related to leaks and posting images directly from white dwarf is illegal. But I don't think that this calls for GW to completely eradicate these blogs.

I will wait and see how this all turns out, but I expect this type of thing to become increasingly common in the future.

It should go without saying, unless some less than reasonable person explicitly elects to mention and include “and all employees” it should be taken for granted that people are talking about the corporate entity and it's policies, and not everyone who works there.

Of course there are a lot of people worth supporting in the company. If nothing else human nature alone demands that there should be some cool people and mostly, the critics do delineate between them and the company.

Unfortunately it is not so easy to separate the two when determining your purchasing habits. You can't exactly support one without supporting the other, though I do like to fancy that with my few purchases I allow myself a year, I am doing precisely that.

I don't know of any 'hater', even when wishing ill of the company due to it's policies, really want to see that extended to all the employees who had little to no say in the contentious policies. Even if one effectively does mean the other.

There shouldn't be a need for a disclaimer, but I will give you that your point is worth acknowledging, hence my post.

**UNCLEBADTOUCH**

It's funny that high elves get a mention in this as the first leaked photo came via a GW store official Facebook page.

**Azreal13**

ForCalth wrote:

However, when I hear people saying things like "GW is a company of fascist ", and that they won't be giving them any more money, I get pretty aggravated. There are large numbers of people in the upper echelons of GW that do want what's best for the hobby and don't just want to screw over the entire community. After hearing about the more recent lawsuits by Games Workshop, I was talking with someone (I will not reveal his, or her, name, but you will all recognize this person from the pages of white dwarf and the online newsletter), and they share many of the views that have been expressed about the way GW doesn't seem to care for its customer base, past simply taking their money in ever-increasing amounts. What I am trying to say is that the people who are actually involved with the hobby side of things are often of the same opinion as you, and have expressed their own concerns about the ways GW is running things, including things like their crackdown on third party bit makers and blogs. I do understand that they are required to protect their copyrights when faced with repeated infringement, and that what people like Natfka are doing related to leaks and posting images directly from white dwarf is illegal. But I don't think that this calls for GW to completely eradicate these blogs.

I will wait and see how this all turns out, but I expect this type of thing to become increasingly common in the future.

You say this, but there is a fairly large body of anecdotal evidence that suggests anyone with the backbone to offer a dissenting voice or in any way disagree with management is at best marginalised and more often than not fired or driven out.

One could even infer from their normal recruitment adverts that this is quite overt within the company.

**MrMoustaffa**

Ok I thought this was a news thread.

I've been reading through this thread and all I've found is legal mumbo jumbo.

What the heck actually happened?

**Timmy149**

OT: Wow. only a few hours and this thread already has 10 pages!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ok I thought this was a news thread.

I've been reading through this thread and all I've found is legal mumbo jumbo.

What the heck actually happened?

Faeit 212 (Natfka's blog) was taken down, GW raged about copyright and attacked google, who shut down BoLS and Faeit. or something. a lot of DMCA (or something...)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nem wrote:
puma713 wrote:
There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

I would like to see this

I understand GW wanting to protect their work. They have that right, and I won't blame them for exercising it.

However, I do think this is hurting GW more than helping them. I currently do not play Fantasy, though have been thinking about it. A good while back I bought some HighE figures cheap, and was considering buying more on there imminent release, now Faeit gave me news, hyped up the release and generally got me interested, without this GW has not done anything to entice me to buy this army.

Really, these sites really hype up GW products and I’m sure help sales. IMO I would go as far as massively helping sales - In the case of Tau how many less pre-orders would there have been if people didn't hear rumors about how good/ bad they could be? I would not preorder a expensive model with no idea on potential (Unless it looked really awesome).

Exactly. Faeit/rumour blogs actually HELP geedubbs. Without them, few people buy their new releases

**MrMoustaffa**

Thanks Timmy. I'm calling it a night reading at page 6 and I'll try to see if there was anything I missed from there later.

Seeing all these pages of responses made me thing it was some big ongoing event, but from the looks of it it's mostly speculation.

**Timmy149**

No problem!

**winterdyne**

I find it kinda funny in a sad sort of way.
Forgeworld thrive on pre-release rumours. I already have a diorama planned with two of the new Space Marine landspeeders. They openly discuss what they're working on, what they'd like to work on; the old 80's - mid 90's cult of personality for want of a better phrase is thriving. People like to feel involved with the hobby. People also like to plan their spend (especially if it will be significant) in advance.

GW main, well, they don't even send out black boxes to the stores anymore, and most of the time the store monkeys are just as much in the dark as the rest of us.

Look at the current boom in things on kickstarter - this is pre-release selling at its finest. Sometimes all there is to go on is a concept sketch and yet people still shout 'Shut up and take my money!'. Hands up if you pledged on the *cough* not *cough* Serenity crew on Sedition Wars. Me, definitely Guilty.

GW I think have lost touch massively with the market. I still love the settings, hugely. Really want a High Elf army. Really want an Empire army. Hell lots of stuff I'd like, I just can't bring myself to buy them (for myself) these days. I've spent quite a few hundred pounds on other games over the past year, and it's looking like that trend will continue with Robotech Tactics and Mecha Front. Even Martian Front is appealing, and I HATE 15mm stuff.

**Crimson**

I can't get worked up over this. Spots the Space Marine thing was absurd, this seems rather reasonable.

If blogs post several scanned pages of codices/armybooks even before they're released, GW will certainly take an action. How many pages people think it is OK to scan and post before it becomes just piratism instead of journalism?

**winterdyne**

I agree from a legal standpoint. I just don't really see the sense in it from a business / sales drive angle - effectively White Dwarf has been little other than a hardcopy catalogue (from which you can't order bits) for several years now - is the objective to sell miniatures (in which case as much hype and excitement as possible is surely a good thing?) or is the objective to sell the magazine, in which case surely it would be sensible to make the thing worth buying for other reasons too?

masterminis.net has a quite good post on it, I had no idea that Faeit212 had over 20m pageviews. That appears to me to be an insane amount of exposure for a product, and it's usually been extremely favourable exposure at that.

**doc1234**

Davor wrote:
And where is MechWarrior now? Trying to rebuild their fanbase.

That's mechwarrior, not Wizkids. Same as if GW went down tommorow, in 20 years time if it was still popular 40K could make a comeback.

**Kroothawk**

If only GW would put half the effort into making and supporting fans, then GW might actually grow again.

(GW total revenue table, adjusted for inflation)

TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW Board of Directors Found Murdered.
GW Stock Leaps 75% on NYSE....

The Auld Grump

**Von Marlon**

Was just deciding whether to boost my Nurgle army or look into another companies game and try them out finally.

Cheers for helping me decide GW!

Now what game to try? Darkage I think.

**Gorlack**

Kroothawk wrote:

TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW Board of Directors Found Murdered.
GW Stock Leaps 75% on NYSE....

The Auld Grump

Dakka finally arrived at the final station of the Hate-Train: Murder City.

Congratulations on wishing the deaths of complete strangers - a classy move indeed.

**Grimtuff**

Gorlack wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:

TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW Board of Directors Found Murdered.
GW Stock Leaps 75% on NYSE....

The Auld Grump

Dakka finally arrived at the final station of the Hate-Train: Murder City.

Congratulations on wishing the deaths of complete strangers - a classy move indeed.

Well, if it was gets GW back on the right track....

How do their own Inquisition say it in 40k? The ends always justify the means.

NB. I am being facetious here. Don't go falling into the great, big, sar-chasm that consumes many people on the Internet. Doesn't mean I don't want GW bought out though. C'mon WOTC, you know you want to.

**Fezman**

Nem wrote:
puma713 wrote:
There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

I would like to see this

I understand GW wanting to protect their work. They have that right, and I won't blame them for exercising it.

However, I do think this is hurting GW more than helping them. I currently do not play Fantasy, though have been thinking about it. A good while back I bought some HighE figures cheap, and was considering buying more on there imminent release, now Faeit gave me news, hyped up the release and generally got me interested, without this GW has not done anything to entice me to buy this army.

Really, these sites really hype up GW products and I’m sure help sales. IMO I would go as far as massively helping sales - In the case of Tau how many less pre-orders would there have been if people didn't hear rumors about how good/ bad they could be? I would not preorder a expensive model with no idea on potential (Unless it looked really awesome).

Regarding Tau, I was thinking a similar thing earlier. Given how often I look at the GW homepage I can tell you that without rumour sites I probably wouldn't have even known there were new Tau until a couple of weeks ago.

winterdyne wrote:I find it kinda funny in a sad sort of way.
Forgeworld thrive on pre-release rumours. I already have a diorama planned with two of the new Space Marine landspeeders. They openly discuss what they're working on, what they'd like to work on; the old 80's - mid 90's cult of personality for want of a better phrase is thriving. People like to feel involved with the hobby. People also like to plan their spend (especially if it will be significant) in advance.

GW main, well, they don't even send out black boxes to the stores anymore, and most of the time the store monkeys are just as much in the dark as the rest of us.

Look at the current boom in things on kickstarter - this is pre-release selling at its finest. Sometimes all there is to go on is a concept sketch and yet people still shout 'Shut up and take my money!'. Hands up if you pledged on the *cough* not *cough* Serenity crew on Sedition Wars. Me, definitely Guilty.

GW I think have lost touch massively with the market. I still love the settings, hugely. Really want a High Elf army. Really want an Empire army. Hell lots of stuff I'd like, I just can't bring myself to buy them (for myself) these days. I've spent quite a few hundred pounds on other games over the past year, and it's looking like that trend will continue with Robotech Tactics and Mecha Front. Even Martian Front is appealing, and I HATE 15mm stuff.

Exactly. Seems to me that Faeit was acting as free marketing for GW. I find it mystifying that Black Library and Forge World are happy to preview things a long time in advance but GW seem so determined to ignore the concept.

**Sean_OBrien**

Crimson wrote:

If blogs post several scanned pages of codices/armybooks even before they're released, GW will certainly take an action. How many pages people think it is OK to scan and post before it becomes just piratism instead of journalism?

2....no 10...no 7...

Really that is a false question, there is no simple answer to such things. Obviously, the nature of the pages and how they are used are the primary factors of whether or not something is simply reporting or if it is blatant piracy. 10 pages which are the table of contents, maybe one character, the army cheat sheet, maybe some of the full color army photos...that could be good journalism. 10 pages from the army list section...that could be good piracy.

Each has to be evaluated for what information it contains and how that might impact GWs ability to sell their copyrighted products. Although some of that might come into play with this specific situation, most the complaints filed by GW against Faeit are relating to early release information, not things that could be considered piracy.

**Krinsath**

Agreed with Sean here. While Faeit clearly had posted whole-page images of the upcoming High Elf army book (go to google and search for "site:natfka.blogspot.com high" and view Google's cached version of the the sample army book pics), where it gets murky is that these are (reportedly) the sample pages freely available to anyone with an iPad. If something is made freely available to anyone with a certain device, it doesn't seem like it would enjoy anywhere near the same level of protection as the full copyrighted work. There is a fairly noticeable lack of commentary on the work itself, but again being a redistribution of a something out there out as a sample would, to my untrained mind, really dilute any claim of infringement.

It's somewhat moot as a discussion point at the moment though, because none of the posted notices have referenced sharing the army books; only unreleased White Dwarf pictures.

**evancich**

Clearly, GW has to protect their IP. They'd lose the ability to defend it in the future if they didn't, there are people re-casting GW models and selling them below retail, and finally it is the correct thing for GW to do.

That said, they could protect their IP in a less jerkish way:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120723/18284519801/jack-daniels-shows-world-heres-how-to-send-polite-cease-and-desist.shtml

I actually like the price increases. I've been playing since the 80's and I've seen the rise of what LortR and GW brought. I'm glad that, that element is going away.

I'd prefer to play against a 12-year-old kid that did research and sought out this type of gaming (like I did, long before GW stores existed in the states) rather than a kid that gets dropped off as a form of day care.

What will be the net effect of this?

1) Sites will become more "gun shy" about posting this type of material

2) It will be more difficult to find (hello message boards and usenet!) unofficial sources of news

3) People will have shorter spin up time to get excited about new stuff coming down the pike. Either you put in a big order for the new release the day it hits gw,com or you miss the 1st wave and wait awhile for restocking

If I were PP, Wyrd, CMoN, FFG, etc I'd jump on this and embrace the rumor sites and form a relationship with them and get people excited about the stuff they are releasing and use that to gain market share.

**drorain**

Still will by GDub products, can't blame them for protecting their IP, I think Faeit could be relaunched and just verbalize the pics rather than post them, but I'm not sure I'd lose much sleep not knowing whats coming out next.

**kronk**

puma713 wrote:
There's a simple fix to all this: GW posting information on their upcoming releases themselves! Kill the leaks and save face all at the same time - work smarter, not harder.

Agreed. How much of this is GW enforcing the rumored "No Rumors" clause of their modeling deal with New Line Cinema? That is to say, without this agreement with New Line Cinema to make a model range and rule system that no one I know would ever want, would they be cracking down so hard on the rumor mills?

**Rorschach9**

evancich wrote:
Clearly, GW has to protect their IP. They'd lose the ability to defend it in the future if they didn't, there are people re-casting GW models and selling them below retail, and finally it is the correct thing for GW to do.

100% correct. As much as people like to rail against the man and say they're just being a bunch of jerks (or insert profanity of choice here), GW has no choice but to defend their IP and copyright. If they don't, they lose the ability to defend it in the future. It doesn't matter if it's a small infringement or large, they have the legal obligation to defend it.

I'm not saying it's been done the right way, but it is something they absolutely *have* to do.

Also, it wasn't over simple rumours as some people seem to be under the impression (note the number of blogs and sites that have not been contacted that simply put up rumours without infringing any copyright laws). It was done over the unauthorized release of pictures from an unreleased publication which GW has the right of first release on. If they don't defend that then they can never claim infringement and their copyright is essentially invalid!

**Dracos**

"GW has to eat, I'm not saying its okay that they stole the food from children, but they have to eat so its ok."

**Mohoc**

Rorschach9 wrote:
evancich wrote:
Clearly, GW has to protect their IP. They'd lose the ability to defend it in the future if they didn't, there are people re-casting GW models and selling them below retail, and finally it is the correct thing for GW to do.

100% correct. As much as people like to rail against the man and say they're just being a bunch of jerks (or insert profanity of choice here), GW has no choice but to defend their IP and copyright. If they don't, they lose the ability to defend it in the future. It doesn't matter if it's a small infringement or large, they have the legal obligation to defend it.

I'm not saying it's been done the right way, but it is something they absolutely *have* to do.

Also, it wasn't over simple rumours as some people seem to be under the impression (note the number of blogs and sites that have not been contacted that simply put up rumours without infringing any copyright laws). It was done over the unauthorized release of pictures from an unreleased publication which GW has the right of first release on. If they don't defend that then they can never claim infringement and their copyright is essentially invalid!

You are wrong. You don't have to activly defend copyright. You have to defend your trademark. That being said, there are fair use exemptions to both. Faeit's blog rubbed a GW lawyer the wrong way and he made an error in law and sent a DMCA notice to Google, asking for legal content to be taken down. That is either bad policy on GWs part or intentional criminal abuse of the law. There is no such thing as a "Right to first Release" when it comes to news.

**Dracos**

Its cool, he's just making gak up.

Shockingly, he's doing it to defend GW who seems to also make gak up.

**Sean_OBrien**

Except they clearly do not have to defend their IP.

Even if we were to assume for a second that this was not fair use...GW could still ignore it without harming their copyright position. That particular notion of having to defend IP only applies to trademarks (not a factor here) and only in so much as it leads to the mark becoming a generic term (again...not a factor here).

To try to compare posting a few blurry images from White Dwarf a couple weeks before it is released to recasting of figures (or that some how one will lead to the other) is about the biggest stretch that anyone has made and is wrong on pretty much every level.

It was done over the unauthorized release of pictures from an unreleased publication which GW has the right of first release on.

Except they have no specific right.

Copyrights provide the right to copy and distribute works. There is no preeminent right to first release granted to the author. If a leak happens...and that leak is used in a manner consistent with fair use, then it does not violate the copyright of the author.

**Mr. Burning**

GW has no choice but to defend their IP and copyright

Since GW themselves are unsure as to what IP they own Im pretty sure they should start tasking their legal department it making sure they have solid foundations on ownership before lashing out.

**Farseer Faenyin**

Timmy149 wrote:
OT: Wow. only a few hours and this thread already has 10 pages!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Really, these sites really hype up GW products and I’m sure help sales. IMO I would go as far as massively helping sales - In the case of Tau how many less pre-orders would there have been if people didn't hear rumors about how good/ bad they could be? I would not preorder a expensive model with no idea on potential (Unless it looked really awesome).

Exactly. Faeit/rumour blogs actually HELP geedubbs. Without them, few people buy their new releases

As much as I am NOT siding with GW in this situation, their reasoning might sounds something like:

"We have lost the sales of old models for the (Insert Infringed Army Here) because somebody leaked that new models were on the way and provided hard evidence. Because of this, we lost $X of average models sales for this range. We need to shut it down!"

GW has a terribly bad habit of not thinking long term, as shareholders do not care about long term gains if it means short term losses.