Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Orktavius wrote:
right....cause cutting specialist games that REALLY didn't sell even when they were promoted (local personal ancedotes aside about how the specialist games were bought/played by everyone in your area not withstanding) means the the end times are upon us again.

Generally speaking, when company has a product line whichs sales are sagging, the first reaction is to make attempt so it will be profitable again. When Toyota sees that Corolla's no longer sell because the model is obsolete, their first reaction is not "OK, lets give up Sedans altogether and concentrate making Hiluxes, they still sell".

Most companies want to offer broad line of products, even if not all of these are not as profitable as others. This is because it's seen advantageous to have wide selection to offer to customers and keep them "inside the family" even when they're not buying the main product lines. Also, broad product line is insurance against risks, because narrow line of products leave you vulnerable if consumers have change of tastes.

Orktavius wrote:

PS: Black library and forge world make money, it's why they are still around.

One reason Forgeworld made money is that they sold Specialist Games items...

JWhex wrote:
Cutting stuff from a business if it is unprofitable is what you are supposed to do.

Unless it fits a strategic purpose as part of your corporations vision or mission.

For example, many companies donate lots of money to charity. Despite the tax benefits I'm sure it is not a direct profit driver, yet they do it anyway.

It is not as black and white as this makes money or that doesn't make money. There are other considerations, and some that may impact the business more than just making $$$ now.

We gotta remember too guys, on this topic and the billion like it, it's old hat to SOME of us. To some people it is very new, and of big interest. Not everyone has been on this forum or in the hobby for years on end...

I'm not going to pretend it's not insanely repetitive and yes for the most part greatly futile in many ways... but you will note that many of the threads we think are beating a dead horse are actually phrased and talked about in such a way that a pretty significant portion of them are clearly written as if they are genuinely new ideas. I don't think quite as many as we think are uncontested whining from people who have been beating the same drum for years.

A little tolerance, a little remembering of the variety of users here and elsewhere, and the variety of experience they have.

Backfire wrote:

One reason Forgeworld made money is that they sold Specialist Games items...

Yeah.

That's totally where FW is making it's $$.

Good call.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
We gotta remember too guys, on this topic and the billion like it, it's old hat to SOME of us. To some people it is very new, and of big interest. Not everyone has been on this forum or in the hobby for years on end...

I'm not going to pretend it's not insanely repetitive and yes for the most part greatly futile in many ways... but you will note that many of the threads we think are beating a dead horse are actually phrased and talked about in such a way that a pretty significant portion of them are clearly written as if they are genuinely new ideas. I don't think quite as many as we think are uncontested whining from people who have been beating the same drum for years.

A little tolerance, a little remembering of the variety of users here and elsewhere, and the variety of experience they have.

And this brings up another point: If newer users/customers start thinking along these lines as well, and if this is happening more and more often, could this not be considered an indication of the beginning of a general shift in attitude of GW's fanbase as a whole? And if the fanbase as a whole is becoming more fearful of the current nature of GW's well-being, how bad might it be on the company side of things?

 Fafnir wrote:


And this brings up another point: If newer users/customers start thinking along these lines as well, and if this is happening more and more often, could this not be considered an indication of the beginning of a general shift in attitude of GW's fanbase as a whole? And if the fanbase as a whole is becoming more fearful of the current nature of GW's well-being, how bad might it be on the company side of things?

I've only been playing for just under a year now, and I find many of their policies concerning and incomprehensible. I think they regularly demonstrate poor business sense and a particular loathing for their customers, or at least that's how their particular brand of operation comes off as. I honestly don't see anything, aside from the current quick pace of army updates, as being a good sign for the company. Even that can be viewed as a desperate move, as the Tau release showed they clearly don't have the logistics in place to maintain this.

I'm no business expert, but I've spent enough time studying economics to see signs of a struggling business; they're still profitable, but too many things indicate very serious underlying problems. I don't have much faith in the future health of the company, and I wholly expect for the company to undergo some serious reconstruction, if not failure, inside of the next 5-10 years.

They've got two solid products in the form of 40k and fantasy which sell in spite of their own asinine policies, but that'll only go on for so long. Having the absolute stinker of a product in the form of the hobbit isn't going to do them any favours, and the increased revenue they're likely seeing with these breakneck army updates will be offset to some extent by the hobbit; there's lots of product sitting in stores not going anywhere, and I know that no stores in the entire province have stocked any additional hobbit product since the initial release, and very little of that has sold.

Honestly, I can't help but feel a re-release and modernization of some of the specialist games would have made a lot of sense for GW over the hobbit. A supported BFG, Necromunda, Mordheim or Epic would likely do reasonably well, especally if they retained the idea of these games being cheaper to get in to. Over the last year I've often heard, "I love the idea of SG X, but all that metal is unattractive," or "Those old scupts are kind of ugly, " or "My 40k faction doesn't have good representation," there's an interest GW could exploit, it just needed support. I have not, however, ever heard any interest on even the most basic of level for the hobbit line from the day it was announced to today. I've seen LOTR models used in fantasy (and one Sauron as a Chaos Lord in 40k), but I don't know anyone who wants to play the game, or buy the models for any hobby reasons; they're expensive, low to mediocre quality and of an aesthetic no one is interested in.

If there's anything to be axed next, it's the hobbit line. However, contractual obligations may force them to axe other things, which is what may have occured here. The Hobbit is likely costing them money, but they can't get rid of the product, not for some time, so how do they cut costs short term? Axe another line with mediocre sales. We might see SG return in a new form after the death of the Hobbit, or at least I hope so.

or they will blindly assume people want lotr/the hobbit and make another useless wotr like expansion

 MajorStoffer wrote:
the Tau release showed they clearly don't have the logistics in place to maintain this.

No no no, not being able sell Tau was good news. Possibly even great news.

 Riquende wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
the Tau release showed they clearly don't have the logistics in place to maintain this.

No no no, not being able sell Tau was good news. Possibly even great news.

It certainly was great news if you're GW's competition.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
or they will blindly assume people want lotr/the hobbit and make another useless wotr like expansion

Nah bro, we should all start playing tonight.

Basically the property will run out and lotr/hobbit will be done. The entire line will them be repackaged with giant shoulder pads and sold as another Marinehammer army.

they could do some of the other stories like the silmarillion but... yeah that's not a good idea, considering how expensive the badly made models are

 cincydooley wrote:

Backfire wrote:

One reason Forgeworld made money is that they sold Specialist Games items...

Yeah.

That's totally where FW is making it's $$.

Good call.

Yes it is.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Even that can be viewed as a desperate move, as the Tau release showed they clearly don't have the logistics in place to maintain this.

Alternatively, Tau could have been more popular than previous xenos re-releases and they just didn't anticipate that. For most of the 'doom and gloom' theories, there's a logical one hiding in there somewhere.

 -Loki- wrote:
Alternatively, Tau could have been more popular than previous xenos re-releases and they just didn't anticipate that. For most of the 'doom and gloom' theories, there's a logical one hiding in there somewhere.

Logical, yes. Favorable to GW, no. Not having any clue how well Tau were going to sell is a pretty big failure of market research, especially since these weren't exactly minor shortages. And let's not forget that they couldn't even cover known sales to retail stores. We're not even talking about their website selling out due to overwhelming demand, GW wasn't even able to get a full package of new releases to every store and those are something they should have known about well in advance.

Also, it tells us one of two things:

1) For whatever reason GW is afraid to over-produce and needed to optimize the perfect production run to cover the initial sales and no more instead of stockpiling the predicted sales for a longer period of time and having a margin of error in case the initial release did better than expected. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a sensible business plan or a company with terrible finances being forced to cut everything as close as possible with no tolerance for risking unsold models.

or

2) GW had to rush the Tau release without waiting long enough to produce sufficient stock to cover the initial sales with a margin of error. Again, I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's GW being eager to support their fans and update everything to 6th edition as fast as possible or GW desperately shoving out new releases as fast as possible to cover existing sales problems (the Hobbit, for example).

Backfire wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Backfire wrote:

One reason Forgeworld made money is that they sold Specialist Games items...

Yeah.

That's totally where FW is making it's $$.

Good call.

Yes it is.

Hard to tell who is and is not being sarcastic here. Epic and BFG were the only specialist ranges supported and I find it highly unlikely that they have been a central product supporting FW. Most of the Epic stuff was discontinued years ago and much of what remained was in support of Imperial Aeronautica. FW definitely could still be selling a lot of Epic terrain, the FW epic scale buildings go for really high prices on ebay.

Peregrine, I don't have much love for your posts. I actually dislike allot of them to be completely honest.
I hate them even more when you are right, especially on these topics.
Lotr/warhammer world will be next if they keep this up.

The wiser option would ofc be to fire the management and get some competent people in charge, but I doubt that will happen...

Would It really be a good thing if WOTC took over ? I have little knowledge on how they run their show.

 mayfist wrote:

Would It really be a good thing if WOTC took over ?

No.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Alternatively, Tau could have been more popular than previous xenos re-releases and they just didn't anticipate that. For most of the 'doom and gloom' theories, there's a logical one hiding in there somewhere.

Logical, yes. Favorable to GW, no. Not having any clue how well Tau were going to sell is a pretty big failure of market research, especially since these weren't exactly minor shortages. And let's not forget that they couldn't even cover known sales to retail stores. We're not even talking about their website selling out due to overwhelming demand, GW wasn't even able to get a full package of new releases to every store and those are something they should have known about well in advance.

Also, it tells us one of two things:

1) For whatever reason GW is afraid to over-produce and needed to optimize the perfect production run to cover the initial sales and no more instead of stockpiling the predicted sales for a longer period of time and having a margin of error in case the initial release did better than expected. I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's a sensible business plan or a company with terrible finances being forced to cut everything as close as possible with no tolerance for risking unsold models.

or

2) GW had to rush the Tau release without waiting long enough to produce sufficient stock to cover the initial sales with a margin of error. Again, I'll leave it to you to decide whether that's GW being eager to support their fans and update everything to 6th edition as fast as possible or GW desperately shoving out new releases as fast as possible to cover existing sales problems (the Hobbit, for example).

as much as I wished it was for the people its more likely then not to recover their losses from the hobbit and such

 pities2004 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I would say out of all of those, White Dwarf probably is the least valuable but they will maintain that as a loss IMHO. Black Library seems Self Sufficient.

Hobbit will happen regardless of success.

I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

You're crazy if you think GW is going to cut Warhammer Fantasy, I would LOVE to hear what kind of mushrooms you are chowing down.


Fantasy is really big in my area not so much 40k. Fantasy makes more money when building a army, you need more models more stuff.

And I'd have thought you were crazy once if you'd said one day there'd be no Epic or any other standalone games. That definitely wouldn't have sounded like a good business idea either.

 MajorStoffer wrote:


I'm no business expert...

Then stop pretending that you are.

This isn't a holiday inn express commercial.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
they could do some of the other stories like the silmarillion but... yeah that's not a good idea, considering how expensive the badly made models are

They won't have the license for the Silmarillion. I can't imagine the Tolkiens would even want to give it up.

As for the badly made models . . .











Have I said enough?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
As for the badly made models . . .

Have I said enough?

Yeah, I don't really get it either. The LOTR stuff is really well done, and IMO I'd be perfectly happy to see WHFB get dumped in favor of making LOTR the fantasy game (and a proper game, not just a movie toy that gets forgotten once the movies are done).

Yeah, I'd love to see them really push the game more. Everyone I know seems to love LOTR, they're really missing out on something big.

Maybe make two games: the strategy game (which is really good at the moment) and then a better version of War of the Ring that's not just a test run for WHFB 8th edition.

As much as I doubt it, I'd really really like to see them do more second age minis. I'd love to be able to do some really cool battles with them.

Anyway, regarding not making enough money: wasn't LOTR one of GW's biggest sellers a few years back? They've probably recouped their costs many times over. Maybe not with the Hobbit game, but it seems to be their fault for not doing enough with it.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Having the absolute stinker of a product in the form of the hobbit isn't going to do them any favours, and the increased revenue they're likely seeing with these breakneck army updates will be offset to some extent by the hobbit; there's lots of product sitting in stores not going anywhere, and I know that no stores in the entire province have stocked any additional hobbit product since the initial release, and very little of that has sold.

This is a fair point and brings up something I hadn't really considered before. Anecdotally, I know that there are many WAAC folks out there who enjoyed the pace at which codices were formerly released because it gave them time to break down the codex, absorb the data and create an army. Sometimes, they may spend anywhere from $300-$700 getting into this new army. They may play a few tournaments, place highly enough that they stay with the army, or they may go back to one of their old armies. But then the process repeats itself when the newest army comes out and eventually, their old armies are replaced by new models and new rules. It was a type of gamer (and type of consumer) that became commonplace within the 5th Edition release schedule. One month you would see someone with Blood Angels, a few months later, they would have a completely decked out army of new Grey Knights - those soon to be replaced with Necrons.

Now, this new release schedule all but destroys that mindset (for better or worse). A codex is released and before that gamer boils down a list that he feels can take all-comers, a new codex is released, not to mention FAQs that change the landscape and the evolving meta of fliers and flyer-defense. It makes me wonder if the new release schedule has harmed them in this way. I mean, if there is a way that releasing material quickly can harm you (aside from piss-poor editing), wouldn't that be one of them? Before, you trickled the armies out and gave your fans time to relish each one. They may consider buying an army, they may not. But if they don't, they may consider purchasing new units for their current army to deal with the new rules and new units coming across the table at them. Now, codices are coming out much faster and saturating the market with new rules. The former WAAC player, instead of blowing all of his money, saves it and waits until the codex that grabs him comes out. Now, instead of netting ~$2100 for the armies he may have bought, now you're netting about $700 for the one he decided on.

Granted, the entire fanbase is not made up of tournament-going WAAC cash cows, but your comment made me consider the fact that ramping up the release schedule seems to have fewer positives than it does negatives, especially with the Tau debacle, the lack of proper editing with the new codices coming out, etc., etc.

 cincydooley wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:


I'm no business expert...

Then stop pretending that you are.

This isn't a holiday inn express commercial.

I'm sorry, I'm merely applying a post-secondary education in economics and my own anecdotal experiences put through the filter of that education. If we reserve the discussion for those with doctorates or those in charge of large, successful businesses, well, there wouldn't be a conversation, since I doubt those types frequent this locale. Just trying to contribute my own 2 cents. but admitting I don't have all the answers or know everything there is to know, apologies if that offends your sense of propriety.

Soooo.....

Is it too late to fill out my Man'O'War fleets?

 puma713 wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Having the absolute stinker of a product in the form of the hobbit isn't going to do them any favours, and the increased revenue they're likely seeing with these breakneck army updates will be offset to some extent by the hobbit; there's lots of product sitting in stores not going anywhere, and I know that no stores in the entire province have stocked any additional hobbit product since the initial release, and very little of that has sold.

This is a fair point and brings up something I hadn't really considered before. Anecdotally, I know that there are many WAAC folks out there who enjoyed the pace at which codices were formerly released because it gave them time to break down the codex, absorb the data and create an army. Sometimes, they may spend anywhere from $300-$700 getting into this new army. They may play a few tournaments, place highly enough that they stay with the army, or they may go back to one of their old armies. But then the process repeats itself when the newest army comes out and eventually, their old armies are replaced by new models and new rules. It was a type of gamer (and type of consumer) that became commonplace within the 5th Edition release schedule. One month you would see someone with Blood Angels, a few months later, they would have a completely decked out army of new Grey Knights - those soon to be replaced with Necrons.

Now, this new release schedule all but destroys that mindset (for better or worse). A codex is released and before that gamer boils down a list that he feels can take all-comers, a new codex is released, not to mention FAQs that change the landscape and the evolving meta of fliers and flyer-defense. It makes me wonder if the new release schedule has harmed them in this way. I mean, if there is a way that releasing material quickly can harm you (aside from piss-poor editing), wouldn't that be one of them? Before, you trickled the armies out and gave your fans time to relish each one. They may consider buying an army, they may not. But if they don't, they may consider purchasing new units for their current army to deal with the new rules and new units coming across the table at them. Now, codices are coming out much faster and saturating the market with new rules. The former WAAC player, instead of blowing all of his money, saves it and waits until the codex that grabs him comes out. Now, instead of netting ~$2100 for the armies he may have bought, now you're netting about $700 for the one he decided on.

Granted, the entire fanbase is not made up of tournament-going WAAC cash cows, but your comment made me consider the fact that ramping up the release schedule seems to have fewer positives than it does negatives, especially with the Tau debacle, the lack of proper editing with the new codices coming out, etc., etc.

I think you are very far off base with your assessment of how long the top armies stuck around. The IG has been one of the top armies for a very long time, GK also enjoyed more than just a few months and the SW are still very good. The introduction of allies has clouded things a bit. Skaven, Dark Elves, Lizardmen: all top armies and have been for years not just a few months. There are other examples but Im not going to analyze all the 40k and fantasy armies, I am afraid you are just plainly wrong about this.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
they could do some of the other stories like the silmarillion but... yeah that's not a good idea, considering how expensive the badly made models are

They won't have the license for the Silmarillion. I can't imagine the Tolkiens would even want to give it up.

As for the badly made models . . .


Have I said enough?

all the models you listed are in some cases many years old, when Lotr was pretty big and they gave a crap about it, I like many of those models
compare some of those to any of the hobbit stuff

The models themselves are actually quite nice. What's wrong isn't the sculpt, it's the painting.

Granted, there are some shockers, but there are also:

Those orcs look like they should be in Mad Max