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 Adam LongWalker wrote:

The sudden increase of licensing their IP's to video games again shows the need for short term cash. Ironically I also believe that this is the reason why specialist and collector ranges are gone. To be turned into Video Games and other licensing products. Now Marvel did the same thing, increasing their licensing IP's out to make video games, movies and other products. Where did this lead them? To be bought out by Disney for chump change back in '09.

You think $4.2 Billion US is chump change? The company had been run into the ground in 1996 by Ron Perelman (not the actor) and was literally bankrupt. To essentially go from nothing to $4.2 Billion isn't bad. As for value number for comparison, Perelman bought the company originally for $89 million US in 1989. Also, Isaac Perlmutter who brought the company out of bankruptcy in 1998 and help run it till it was bought out is believe to be the most influential person at Disney since the death of Steve Jobs. The movie path was pushed by Perlmutter and Avi Arad openly back in 90's as well, so it wasn't a "final ditch for short term cash".

For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.

As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.

silent25 wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

The sudden increase of licensing their IP's to video games again shows the need for short term cash. Ironically I also believe that this is the reason why specialist and collector ranges are gone. To be turned into Video Games and other licensing products. Now Marvel did the same thing, increasing their licensing IP's out to make video games, movies and other products. Where did this lead them? To be bought out by Disney for chump change back in '09.

You think $4.2 Billion US is chump change? The company had been run into the ground in 1996 by Ron Perelman (not the actor) and was literally bankrupt. To essentially go from nothing to $4.2 Billion isn't bad. As for value number for comparison, Perelman bought the company originally for $89 million US in 1989. Also, Isaac Perlmutter who brought the company out of bankruptcy in 1998 and help run it till it was bought out is believe to be the most influential person at Disney since the death of Steve Jobs. The movie path was pushed by Perlmutter and Avi Arad openly back in 90's as well, so it wasn't a "final ditch for short term cash".

For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.

As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.

Absolutely I consider it chump change for what Disney purchased it for and what it is getting now from that purchase and future revenue. In that sector of the entertainment industry I still have my business licenses, the IP's from that era as well as the IP attorneys to ruthlessly protect those IP's I created/purchased. I know what I have seen and live through that industry with its up and downs. I represented two artists at that time. I did that because they are my friends and I had the financial firepower to make it happen. Otherwise they were going to get screwed. Artists I find are great at what they do but more or less many are not so good on the business end of things. I spent a lot of money in investments and time within that sector of the entertainment industry.

Even invested in a comic/game store, and is a reason why I went so very hard into real estate after seeing the corporate golden parachutes from that Comic industry /games debacle. Wealth opens many doors and looking into that world that few people see opens your eyes about the realities they believe in. I saw so many talented artists may of them my friends getting the royal shaft.

The Perelman's in the world are of the same cut of the same cloth as of the CEO Kirby's of the world. I despise them both. I know enough about Disney to stay the hell away from them. You never mess with the mouse.

As far as FFG and dust tactics? Sort of expected it to happen.

As far as waste in time with production of the specialty lines? That depends on perspective and staffing. I know it is very doable but I also stated the probable reasons why they are cutting the product lines. That is IP licensing. They will make more short term profit from their licenses.

I seen how the many sectors of the entertainment industry that I have been involved in since 1970 have changed and matured. Some for the better and some for the worse. I consider it a blessing since I lived through it, met a great many of talented people and respected all of them for what they gave to make our entertainment industry, from video games to miniatures.

That is why I am such a proponent for kick starter and other methods of micro investments/crowd source funding as see a new light of innovation that I have not seen in years. I want to see new ideas and new concepts being placed out to the consumer.

So in answering your comment, I understand where you are coming from, but I live through that times and its harsh realities. I saw people getting hurt. Dreams crushed by corporate ideology. I won't comment further on this line of thought and additional posts as it brings up some old memories of a time you have to be such an evil bastard to get ahead in life at the expense of others.

 pities2004 wrote:
Collectors range and Specialist games didn't make much money, why not cut them?


The sky isn't falling yet people.

The thing about the Specialist Games line is that it could have been making them money.

Heck, the success of Dreadball shows that my least favorite SG still has some life in it. (I did not like Blood Bowl, I do not like Dreadball, but I have been the only person in a room with a dozen people that did not like Dreadball - it is entirely fair to say that this is a case of personal preference, not what is or is not a good game.)

If a game or line is not marketed then of course it is going to have flat sales.... Mordheim and Necromunda in particular could be making GW money.

That said - I have been expecting the end of The Collector's Range since Finecrap came out - while they are making money they likely are not worth converting to Findcash. An upfront cost on unknown but low expected sales.

Doesn't mean that I am happy about it, and I am annoyed enough with Gee Dub that I doubt that will send them the money for The Carnival of Chaos miniatures, much though I love them.

The Auld Grump

I've noticed in this thread and the one on Specialist games people posting along the lines that it's fine generally because;

It wasn't making them money.

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

 blood reaper wrote:
I've noticed in this thread and the one on Specialist games people posting along the lines that it's fine generally because;

It wasn't making them money.

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

Its not just that they aren't making GW money, its that the nostalgia of these games, and their basic ideas are making other companies heaps of money.

silent25 wrote:

For the SG and Collector Ranges being closed down, another issue might be in light of the recent increased released schedule. Production capacity is at a premium. Why waste a machine producing low profit/low turnover items when it can be used to produce the new wave of figs? Even if it doesn't require a large footprint and staff, that space and staff can be used for a more profitable venture.

Can they? What is this "more profitable venture"? The Hobbit? Ummm...no. More Space Marine figures? Just how much Space Marines the market can absorb?

silent25 wrote:

As for the SG IP, brought up the possibility of these games being licensed out to FFG in the Dust thread. FFG is already producing most of their abandoned board/card games. GW might be reaching the point their relationship with FFG is close enough they don't worry about them releasing the small scale games. The royalties from FFG may be as much as they were making with the SG store.

They will never do it. It's one thing licensing board games or RPG's, miniatures are their core business and they don't want any other company make money off them and have creative control.

Besides (maybe) saving some money, what they managed to do with this decision was an extra cash. I'm about to buy Cypher, the Iron Warriors Warsmith and Night Lords Hero before they are gone for good, and I can't believe I'm the only one doing last minute shopping.

If this was part of their strategy to get a "boost", well you GW.

It is a sad day to see my blessed Valhallans apparently march off into the sunset (good thing I already own plenty).

I wonder if Chenkov will be able to send the next wave?

It'll be sad to see the Goff-Rokerz and Spanner Boyz finally go, oh well.

Wait, oes that mean they are removing 'armour through out the ages'? Just realised that it's under the collectors tab AND FineCast

Also sad to see the sartosians go, liked that pirate model... Also sad to see the orc raiders go....and the 'citizens of the empire'...

So many characterful (and some well sculpted) minis going..

Wait . . . did someone say they're selling off their metal molds?

silent25 wrote:
You think $4.2 Billion US is chump change? The company had been run into the ground in 1996 by Ron Perelman (not the actor)

Best
Clarification
Ever.

Real quick clarification question, Are collector models made in finecast also being discontinued? I really hope not.

garrapignado wrote:
Ugly miniatures decades olds being discontinued? I can live with that. Being honest, I would have done this earlier.

And I say this being the owner of several ugly miniatures decades old. But I live in 2013, and I want 2013 quality miniatures, not 1990 quality miniatures.

Those minis remind me of walkmans, Spectrum, Ghostbusters, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, and things like that. And all of them are things I've replaced for better.

Fresh prince should never have been listed here..... still amazing and a lot more funny than the crap on TV now.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Absolutely I consider it chump change for what Disney purchased it for and what it is getting now from that purchase and future revenue.

It is easy to say that now, but hindsight that is always 20/20. Would you be saying that if the Thor and Captain American movies had been more like Green Lantern and last Superman movies? Back in 2009 there was a lot of talk that Disney had paid too much.

But now I'm confused, first you say licensing IPs for movies was a short term cash grab and now you say the movies were the strength of the company? Licensing IPs out are an act of desperation and short term cash grabs, except when they are successful?

 blood reaper wrote:

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.

In order to support the game, they have to allocate resources to the game. If they hire three people at $40k a year to maintain it, is the profit they're making enough to sustain that $120k in FTE? Further, is that profit more than the amount of profit that $120K in FTE would produce were it spent on one of their primary lines? If the answer to the latter question was yes, one can surmise they wouldn't cut the lines.

Believe it or not, the folks making the business decisions at GW know more about how to keep their business in the black than you do and they have to support their decisions with data in order to get those decisions approved.

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.

Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.

Even if this stuff was worth it in its day, everything must end someday.

 blood reaper wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.

Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.

They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.

People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.

Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.

They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.

People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.

If no one is buying them, the production is still a sunk cost.

Are the Heroscape tournaments official?

 blood reaper wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

However, these ranges did make GW money, and could have easily continued to be successful if GW had not shoved them away into the corner and refuse to support them, and not shove them into a corner like the ugly child in a family photo.

The fact remains that you have nothing that can support this claim.

Most have been kept in production since the 1990's, and continued to have tournaments based around them until the early to mid 2000's.

They're in production because it's basically a sunk cost. The moulds are already done and they're buying material in bulk.

People are still playing in Heroscape tournaments.

If no one is buying them, the production is still a sunk cost.

Are the Heroscape tournaments official?

Wait, I think we actually agree.

No to both of those. I'm actually in full support of them dumping the SG lines.

I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.

FFG could probably do a better job than GW.

perezba7 wrote:
Real quick clarification question, Are collector models made in finecast also being discontinued? I really hope not.

We think so, sadly, seems GW are likely being a bit sweeping here and that everything in the collectors range is going. I don't have proof of this just seems implicit in the news.

 blood reaper wrote:
FFG could probably do a better job than GW.

I don't think it's that GW can't do a good job, it's that they don't want to support the line. Which is where you pull in someone like FFG to handle the support.

I think GWs handling of FAQs for 6th has shown that, if they want, they can do a reasonably good job of supporting a rule set (whether or not FAQed issues should have been discovered in playtesting, etc, is an entirely separate issue).

I mean, I think it basically boils down to a numbers game. Vac-Chambers have to be used for a model, which model makes us the most money? If it were the SGs or the Collectors editions, they'd still be making them.

 cincydooley wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
FFG could probably do a better job than GW.

I don't think it's that GW can't do a good job, it's that they don't want to support the line. Which is where you pull in someone like FFG to handle the support.

I think GWs handling of FAQs for 6th has shown that, if they want, they can do a reasonably good job of supporting a rule set (whether or not FAQed issues should have been discovered in playtesting, etc, is an entirely separate issue).

I've found it incredibly poor. GW's job on the Chaos Daemons FAQ answered none of the questions asked by the player base.

Just heard about this, I was hoping to start a Valhallan centric army

 yakface wrote:

I wonder if Chenkov will be able to send the next wave?

Oh don't joke, yakface. Though I really do hope.

 Lord Harrab wrote:
A shame, but hopefuly that means plastic steel legion kits

Yeah they'll fit in with my plastic Valhallans.

 ImperialKnight wrote:
Just heard about this, I was hoping to start a Valhallan centric army

Well, having a whole platoon of Valhallan myself, including long OOP figurines, I must admit that if my old collection would have been small by 2006, and if I were not putting so much effort painting it, I would have jumped and switched wholeheartedly to another range. The another range being Vostroyan firstborn. Already 7 years old, but they look just crazy good to my eyes. Even more, if you have some painting skills to make them look better than the uninspired flashy gold / red dudes from GW website.

How about them ?

 cincydooley wrote:


I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.

I don't understand where this "FFG is the Messiah" comes from. First, GW would never license them to FFG, second, FFG itself is not exactly known from their games having good balance, concise rules or timely FAQ's.

Backfire wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:


I think they're best bet is to let FFG produce them and if they want them to be 28mm, then to work in conjunciton with them to supply plastic kits. Let FFG handle the support, the paper production, etc.

I don't understand where this "FFG is the Messiah" comes from. First, GW would never license them to FFG, second, FFG itself is not exactly known from their games having good balance, concise rules or timely FAQ's.

And this is because you said so?

They already have a fairly robust relationship with FFG. The FFG warnammer branded products are popular. There are plenty of people that very much enjoy their games.

As to your latter complaints: none of those seem to keep their games from selling well.