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 Popenfresh wrote:

 Mavlun wrote:

You were right with the differing power levels, and it really comes into play here. The Nightbringer was beaten by Khaine (though he did put up an awesome fight afaik), but the Void Dragon quite nearly -killed- not beat the Emperor, which in turn is way beyond Khaine in power terms given his ability to scare the gak out of the Chaos Gods which are >>> Khaine.

Big E beat a shart, Khaine possibly beat a full C'tan (I'm assuming since it took place during the War in Heaven, though we have zero certainty on this)

 Mavlun wrote:
It's kind of like this in my view: The C'Tan are like soldiers wearing fully body Kevlar. They're extremely extremely resilient vs. bullets, but have zero added protection vs. flamers let's say. That isn't to say they've got a particular weakness to flamers, or that flamers do increased damage to them, but rather they're "just as vulnerable" to fire as your average guy.

Looks like someone never heard of the effects of full copper bullets on kevlar.... Anyhow, if they're completely impervious to physical attacks there's no way the C'tan could've killed eachother or have been beaten by the necrons since neither use warpbased energies.

They're resilient but not immune to the laws of physics.

The Eldar Gods were far more powerful during the war in heaven than they were in the dying days of the Eldar Empire. It's explicitly stated that the Eldar Gods weakened as they allowed the corruption and hedonism infect them.

 Kain wrote:
The Eldar Gods were far more powerful during the war in heaven than they were in the dying days of the Eldar Empire. It's explicitly stated that the Eldar Gods weakened as they allowed the corruption and hedonism infect them.

We can assume this but is it stated anywhere specifically? Make no mistake I agree I just don't think the true scope of their power was ever explicitally stated. They're usualy very much just background notes in the fluff (as they should be).

Edit: K, thx Void

Yeah it was stated in the Dark Eldar codex.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.

If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.

Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.

That settles it, we need a Mechanicus codex. Get to work Yodhrin!

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.

If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.

Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.

It was an unreliable vision. Just because characters attribute it to show the Emperor and/or the Void Dragon doesn't mean it has to be that.

And yes, I would agree with you about the Adeptus Mechanicus. For them, discovery is more like archaeology. Their entire dogma is structured around recapturing the lost "Golden Age" by scrounging and reconstructing fragments rather than genuine rediscovery and research. Tech-Priests are also more like stereotypical lone mad scientists than modern day scientists. There is no flow of information or peer review as understood in the modern sense. Each Tech-Priest hoards their knowledge and it is passed down like a mystery cult or initiation.

The Mechanicus is like that... Now.

They weren't like that ten thousand years ago.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.

If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.

Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.

Actually it's been around for a long time. McNeil just expanded the story a bit.

McNeill actually worked on the original Necron codex, last I checked.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
This has been hinted at for a long time. St. George and the dragon is supposed to be the Emperor and the Dragon (with a capital 'D').
It's long been rumoured that the Dragon is also actually the Machine God.

If by "long" you mean "since Graham mouth-farted that stupid part of Mechanicum" then I agree. The stuff from the 3rd Ed Necron 'dex was so vague as to be pointless, and that was good, because the whole concept is moronic and completely robs the Mechanicus of any agency and, more importantly, their story of any impact and meaning. The Mechanicus was an indictment of dogmatic belief over rational inquiry, a twisted mockery of the transhumanist ideal that, rather than empowering humanity, limits it. In that respect it was good science fiction in the classical sense; it examined a scenario in which human behaviour interacts with technology, and showed us the consequences of making poor decisions.

Now they're a plot device. THE EMPRAH needed fleets and weapons for his armies, so he beat up a baddie and stuck him under a group of humans to somehow make them do what he wanted via psychic osmosis. I quite like Graham McNeil's books most of the time, but he doesn't seem to really understand the Mechanicus, he just presents them as scientists who believe in God, which completely misses the point that they're supposed to be the complete antithesis of the scientific method and mindset.

There's been a large shift in 40k from "backwards gakhole with no progress" to "there is progress but it won't matter, you're all gonna die" for the source of grimdark.