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 Sidstyler wrote:
I remember once someone was talking about the 4th edition Tyranid codex in particular, that the playtesters saw Nidzilla being a thing and warned GW, but I guess GW had a new carnifex kit to sell so we all know what happened there.

I wonder which possibility is worse: that GW's "playtesting" honestly didn't catch that the Vendetta was way too cheap, or that everyone in game design knew it and GW management told them to make it overpowered to sell their expensive new flyer kit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I remember once someone was talking about the 4th edition Tyranid codex in particular, that the playtesters saw Nidzilla being a thing and warned GW, but I guess GW had a new carnifex kit to sell so we all know what happened there.

I wonder which possibility is worse: that GW's "playtesting" honestly didn't catch that the Vendetta was way too cheap, or that everyone in game design knew it and GW management told them to make it overpowered to sell their expensive new flyer kit.

And then after selling crap tons of valkyrie kits, deciding that they would never again port over a FW model into 40k as a plastic kit. Because while it was successful, it apparently wasn't as successful as if they had sold the same number of resin valkyries.

 Sidstyler wrote:
And then after selling crap tons of valkyrie kits, deciding that they would never again port over a FW model into 40k as a plastic kit. Because while it was successful, it apparently wasn't as successful as if they had sold the same number of resin valkyries.

Well, what they figured out was that they could have kept selling the resin Valkyrie and made an entirely new plastic IG flyer with overpowered rules and sold that too. That's why you have stuff like Riptides instead of XV9s in the new Tau codex.

I really can not understand why GW plc seems to think spending £Ms on new minatures to sell,at the detriment of all other minature ranges.
Is somehow more cost effective than promoting ALL minatures ALL the time?
And updating the minature line in a more inclusive way.(Eg updating stuff when the update is needed.)

What is GW plc supposed to be?
If it is a minature company first and foremost.Then it has to compete with ALL other minature companies effectively.
'GW plc is in the buisness of selling toy soldiers..' T.Kirby.

So EVERYTHING should be focused on maximizing sales and growing market share.

Currently GW plc seem to be operating on 'we think its good enough for our target demoghraphic.'

Yet everyone else in the market are trying to deliver the highest quality at the most competetive price to appeal to as many people as possible.

And this really shows IMO.

The other thing to remember is that Jervis mentoned a few years ago at UK games day 2009 that the majority of their customers never actually play the games. GW has long since decided that they just need the idea of a functional game to sell more models. So any and all money spent on playtesting or development beyond what is absolutely necessary is simply not going to happen.

Lanrak wrote:
I really can not understand why GW plc seems to think spending £Ms on new minatures to sell,at the detriment of all other minature ranges.

Their target market tends to be experienced GW collectors, who will already have the "core" troops. Unless it's the vanilla space marine box, the default troops really don't sell very well at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I remember once someone was talking about the 4th edition Tyranid codex in particular, that the playtesters saw Nidzilla being a thing and warned GW, but I guess GW had a new carnifex kit to sell so we all know what happened there.

I wonder which possibility is worse: that GW's "playtesting" honestly didn't catch that the Vendetta was way too cheap, or that everyone in game design knew it and GW management told them to make it overpowered to sell their expensive new flyer kit.

I remember a post by yakface that said that by and large, rules are not decided by what the suits say, but that occasionally the game designers will be given a model and it's assumed that they will give it more powerful rules than otherwise. The vendetta is presumably an advantage of this, £60 for 130 points is bad enough until you realise how powerful the damn thing is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The other thing to remember is that Jervis mentoned a few years ago at UK games day 2009 that the majority of their customers never actually play the games. GW has long since decided that they just need the idea of a functional game to sell more models. So any and all money spent on playtesting or development beyond what is absolutely necessary is simply not going to happen.

And yet 6th edition is head and shoulders above 5th. The ruleset clearly works, and it works well.

6th (as was 5th and 4th) is just another rehash of 3rd. It's shocking it took them 3 more editions over 15 years to get it anywhere close to right.

 BryllCream wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I really can not understand why GW plc seems to think spending £Ms on new minatures to sell,at the detriment of all other minature ranges.

Their target market tends to be experienced GW collectors, who will already have the "core" troops. Unless it's the vanilla space marine box, the default troops really don't sell very well at all.

And this info comes from where exactly?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I really can not understand why GW plc seems to think spending £Ms on new minatures to sell,at the detriment of all other minature ranges.

Their target market tends to be experienced GW collectors, who will already have the "core" troops. Unless it's the vanilla space marine box, the default troops really don't sell very well at all.

And this info comes from where exactly?

Well, if it's accurate, the following suggests otherwise:

"I am amazed at the numbers of plastic space marines sold. I can't believe it, I keep expecting it to be a front for drugs."

Jervis Johnson, Gen Con 2005

 daedalus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
I really can not understand why GW plc seems to think spending £Ms on new minatures to sell,at the detriment of all other minature ranges.

Their target market tends to be experienced GW collectors, who will already have the "core" troops. Unless it's the vanilla space marine box, the default troops really don't sell very well at all.

And this info comes from where exactly?

Well, if it's accurate, the following suggests otherwise:

"I am amazed at the numbers of plastic space marines sold. I can't believe it, I keep expecting it to be a front for drugs."

Jervis Johnson, Gen Con 2005

Ahh. There's nothing quite as relevant as an 8-year old sales anecdote

 cincydooley wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Well, if it's accurate, the following suggests otherwise:

"I am amazed at the numbers of plastic space marines sold. I can't believe it, I keep expecting it to be a front for drugs."

Jervis Johnson, Gen Con 2005

Ahh. There's nothing quite as relevant as an 8-year old sales anecdote

Well, it's either that, or we repeat the last three pages of what I'm now coining the Melissa Postulate:

 Melissia wrote:

Person 1: "[Spurious claim]"
Person 2: "Prove it."
1: "No. [Spurious claim.]"
2: "I'm waiting for you to prove it."
1: "You're wrong."

 daedalus wrote:

Well, it's either that, or we repeat the last three pages of what I'm now coining the Melissa Postulate:

 Melissia wrote:

Person 1: "[Spurious claim]"
Person 2: "Prove it."
1: "No. [Spurious claim.]"
2: "I'm waiting for you to prove it."
1: "You're wrong."

Oh that's good.

Why isn't the sales data made public in the CHS lawsuit case sufficient? It's GW's actual sales data for Memphis for a legal court case.

If I recall, things that you'd think of as core like tactical squads and battleforces sold quite well, but equally well was each new splash release, but with an overall trend of numbers for both slowly declining.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Why isn't the sales data made public in the CHS lawsuit case sufficient?

Why do you think?

Increase your whole-sale price by 5%-10% and then allow independent retailers to set market price. This way you make more money and increase volume whilst giving the illusion that prices have been decreased due to the lack of an "MSRP"

End brick & mortar stores.

Increase Independent retailer support.

End stupid "everybody gets a monstrous cav or giant walker" sales gimmick.

Start supporting tournaments again.

Establish social media presence. Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, their own forums, etc

Use White Dwarf as a marketing tool (cut sub price, send weeks ahead of new releases to build anticipation). Start using it to publish rules for new model releases, so you can provide older armies with some new candy. Make it a no-brainer for every GW hobbyist to have it.

Stabilize international pricing to be in line with exchange rates. Remove trade limitations from all independent retailers

Start taking in-codex balance more seriously. Make all units appealing and appropriately costed to sell all kits on a steady basis instead of under-costing newer kits. This will cause sales from each army line to be more steady and predictable.

If you can't sell a box of 10 plastic soldiers for less than $30 then you've massively fethed up your business somewhere along the way and you need to start cutting the fat.

Griever wrote:
Slash prices across the board. 25% across all lines

End brick & mortar stores.

Increase Independent retailer support.

End stupid "everybody gets a monstrous cav or giant walker" sales gimmick.

Start supporting tournaments again.

Establish social media presence. Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, their own forums, etc

Use White Dwarf as a marketing tool (cut sub price, send weeks ahead of new releases to build anticipation). Start using it to publish rules for new model releases, so you can provide older armies with some new candy. Make it a no-brainer for every GW hobbyist to have it.

Stabilize international pricing to be in line with exchange rates. Remove trade limitations from all independent retailers

Start taking in-codex balance more seriously. Make all units appealing and appropriately costed to sell all kits on a steady basis instead of under-costing newer kits. This will cause sales from each army line to be more steady and predictable.

If you can't sell a box of 10 plastic soldiers for less than $30 then you've massively fethed up your business somewhere along the way and you need to start cutting the fat.

LOL! HAHAHAHAH AH AHAHAHA HAH HAHAH AH AH AH AHAHA HAH HA HA! YOU SO FUNNY!!!

everyone knows the solution is to build a GW b&m store beside every FLGS and have them police the FLGS for all naugthy conduct. And the product must be exclusive. They must feel like they are part of an elite, the prices must only go up. And white dwarf? useful? give me a break! People want high quality glossy toilet paper to use in secret. And tournaments suck anyway. You aren't supposed to play warhammer. GW is after all a collectible miniature manufacturer!

 poda_t wrote:

Griever wrote:
Increase your whole-sale price by 5%-10% and then allow independent retailers to set market price. This way you make more money and increase volume whilst giving the illusion that prices have been decreased due to the lack of an "MSRP"
End brick & mortar stores.

Increase Independent retailer support.

End stupid "everybody gets a monstrous cav or giant walker" sales gimmick.

Start supporting tournaments again.

Establish social media presence. Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, their own forums, etc

Use White Dwarf as a marketing tool (cut sub price, send weeks ahead of new releases to build anticipation). Start using it to publish rules for new model releases, so you can provide older armies with some new candy. Make it a no-brainer for every GW hobbyist to have it.

Stabilize international pricing to be in line with exchange rates. Remove trade limitations from all independent retailers

Start taking in-codex balance more seriously. Make all units appealing and appropriately costed to sell all kits on a steady basis instead of under-costing newer kits. This will cause sales from each army line to be more steady and predictable.

If you can't sell a box of 10 plastic soldiers for less than $30 then you've massively fethed up your business somewhere along the way and you need to start cutting the fat.

LOL! HAHAHAHAH AH AHAHAHA HAH HAHAH AH AH AH AHAHA HAH HA HA! YOU SO FUNNY!!!

everyone knows the solution is to build a GW b&m store beside every FLGS and have them police the FLGS for all naugthy conduct. And the product must be exclusive. They must feel like they are part of an elite, the prices must only go up. And white dwarf? useful? give me a break! People want high quality glossy toilet paper to use in secret. And tournaments suck anyway. You aren't supposed to play warhammer. GW is after all a collectible miniature manufacturer!

If you could edit the top line of your quote to reflect my more realistic take on pricing I would appreciate it. Otherwise people may be mis-lead.

I can see your point, it's hard to talk about this sort of thing in a serious manner because for people who have gone to school for business (aka myself) this all seems like a no-brainer.

I've been on the "abolish all GW shops" boat for about two years now. The tiny closet the locations occupy, being understaffed.... then targeting sales at kids who can't even legally work, well, small wonder that so many models just happen to go missing, and then that cuts into profits again... how many boxes of models need to be re-done and re-done again because the targeted audience either pockets the models or accidentally destroys them? Once this ex-GW employee told me that GW had to sell 10 monoliths a month, every month for an entire year out of every physical location, and then the molds would get paid off.... I don't know about you, but, are there really 120 necron players to every store? Obviously, selling to FLGS won't get the same profit out of it, so once you count all the FLGS into the fold, I really don't think there are that many players to any given city that can just shell out like that....

i also concur with your "every army must be the same" gimmick. When IG got the valkyrie, it really was what gave IG a nice edge and gave you a reason to play them. Tyranids have a reason to play them... chaos marines or loyalists?? well.... where's the reason? no distinction apart from the fact that one appears to exhibit an excessive fondness for covering everything in gratuitous quantities of sharp shiny pointy objects. The allies system completely screws over the point of playing a tau army....... i think you get where I'm going with this.

Griever wrote:
Use White Dwarf as a marketing tool (cut sub price, send weeks ahead of new releases to build anticipation).

So... hmm... you pay the same price for subscription as you would if you were to buy them each? And they don't arrive before street date?? Seriously?!

This is a list I wrote on another, similar thread, and reposted here earlier on in this thread.

I'm reposting this in light of recent comments, because, if you notice, I don't advocate price cuts.

My reasoning is simple. With one or two notable exceptions, which one could address on a case by case basis, the actual amount of money asked for their product isn't extreme. (Our Antipodean friends aside) The majority of their range is available for £30 or thereabouts or less.

The issue is the value, which would need to be addressed, not, IMO the actual RRP.

 azreal13 wrote:
1) Reorganise the retail operation. Close the pokey one man stores and centralise the operation into larger multi staff destination stores open 7 days a week and well into the evening. Incorporate staff bonus schemes to include community growth as well as sales growth, linked to tournament entries, game night attendances etc. The staff would be responsible for organising these. Move to stock Forge World and FFG materials in store.

2) Produce a genuine one per faction starter that included a small but balanced force and codex for an appreciable discount.

3) Instruct the studio to produce a small, squad based skirmish game, using the core rules from the main games as their inspiration, with a two step structure allowing for a very basic intro game but with a more advanced level, a la Infinity. Box it with absolutely everything needed to play, get it into non specialist retailers and advertise it in mainstream media. Use this system as both a bridging game and a means to stimulate sales on some under performing lines. Imagine how good a DE Mandrake could be at skirmish level with rules allowing it to redeploy all over the table, make sneak attacks etc, as opposed to their decidedly mediocre 40k showing.

4) Accept the internet exists

5) Acknowledge that indys, employed correctly, are a valuable asset and not an irritation

6) Give the studio more control, only intervening if their ideas were genuinely too costly.

7) Realise that the demographic I was alienating (vets) had more money and were more likely to continue to stick around and adjust the company output to at least reflect the older players interests.

 azreal13 wrote:
The majority of their range is available for £30 or thereabouts or less.

Maybe in your part of the world they are.

 cincydooley wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

Well, it's either that, or we repeat the last three pages of what I'm now coining the Melissa Postulate:

 Melissia wrote:

Person 1: "[Spurious claim]"
Person 2: "Prove it."
1: "No. [Spurious claim.]"
2: "I'm waiting for you to prove it."
1: "You're wrong."

Oh that's good.

I am glad that I was able to help in the creation of this. It is a very useful thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, and I'm surprised at this, as I disagree with him on a number of things, but I second everything that azreal13 just said.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
The majority of their range is available for £30 or thereabouts or less.

Maybe in your part of the world they are.

Oi, I made a special exception for you colonials.

Needless to say, if I'm elected Tom Kirby, I will normalise pricing too (and NOT to Aus levels!)

 azreal13 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
The majority of their range is available for £30 or thereabouts or less.

Maybe in your part of the world they are.

Oi, I made a special exception for you colonials.

Needless to say, if I'm elected Tom Kirby, I will normalise pricing too (and NOT to Aus levels!)

Prices for everything are way higher in Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-22/apple-microsoft-grilled-over-high-prices/4587900

Toy story cost 2.5 times much in AUS as USA. How much more expensive are GW products? I gather they're around twice as much so that would be in line with other consumer products in Australia.

Googled "cost of living index". This says australia is 31% higher than the UK's.

 BryllCream wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
The majority of their range is available for £30 or thereabouts or less.

Maybe in your part of the world they are.

Oi, I made a special exception for you colonials.

Needless to say, if I'm elected Tom Kirby, I will normalise pricing too (and NOT to Aus levels!)

Prices for everything are way higher in Australia.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-22/apple-microsoft-grilled-over-high-prices/4587900

Toy story cost 2.5 times much in AUS as USA. How much more expensive are GW products? I gather they're around twice as much so that would be in line with other consumer products in Australia.

Googled "cost of living index". This says australia is 31% higher than the UK's.

Minimum wage! OF COURSE!

Do you know what you can do if prices are too high in your own country? Buy from somewhere else!

Ok, there's a few things such as apps and DVDs which pose a few technical challenges, but buy and large, if you want to, you can.

Nothing breeds ill will better than getting caught ripping your customers off, and dress it up anyway you like, if you can sell for a profit in one territory, charging significantly higher prices in another is ripping off your customers. Lets not forget, GW have actively and aggressively pursued a policy to enforce this, despite the bad PR it generates. Most companies will ultimately bow to pressure if caught out, either with great fanfare or quietly without fuss. Not GW though, because that's how you really make money!

Edit

How do you explain the prices not being even higher in Norway or Switzerland? Or why the NZ prices aren't lower than the Aussie ones? Or is it just BS and GW pricing strategy is nothing to do with CoL and just because they can?

2nd edit That article you link to is basically a load of flimsy excuses from the companies in question and people calling it BS, doesn't really help your point.

If GW wanted to be fair, they'd charge everyone UK prices + shipping costs adjusted quarterly for exchange rates and then let the local independents price at whatever they need to to cover the 31% higher local costs instead of trying to enforce a ridiculous MSRP and make cross-continent sales more difficult.

 azreal13 wrote:
Minimum wage! OF COURSE!

D'ya think he resets at the start of each day and forgets everything he's read here before? I ask because he didn't just make that tired old argument did he. My eyes are actually deceiving me, right?

Hi again.
In my previous post, I said that GW plc was just making product 'good enough' for its 'target customers.'

My point was they KNOW who will pay for the product they want to sell.And they ARE NOT APPEALING to any other group of the POTENTIAL customer base.
(They are NOT maximizing sales volumes and market share.)

And all the areas of the market ,they are leaving to their own devices.Are being taken up by GW plcs competition.

EG .
Having a good rules set in terms of well defined intuitive rules, that delivers a good depth of engaging game play.Makes customer retention and WORD OF MOUTH marketing FAR easier and cheaper than a chain of B&M stores.
(GW plc spend over HALF their gross profit on B&M stores.The B&M stores are attempting to enforce isolation marketing in the age of the internet and it just does not work.)

A good rule set would promote ALL minatures ALL the time to a wider customer base!
That is why ALL other companies try to get the BEST rule sets they are capable of .GW plc just print ones they think are 'good enough' for their customers.


In short Mr Kirby and the corperate managment of GW plc are STILL being '...fat and lazy....'
All the things that are needed to grow GW market share are NOT being implemented.(GW do NOT have a marketing department ! )

GW plc are STILL just raising RRP to combat falling sales volumes.

I do not think that the existence of Brick and Mortar stores for GW are the issue, but rather that their current products are not appropriate for that sales setting.


GW wants their physical stores to bring new people into the hobby. The issue is that there is a huge barrier of entry to get into the hobby. a ~$100 starter set + 2 codexes + Paint, Brushes, Glue and tools is not an appropriate way to get people into the hobby. Also consider the fact that the game has moved into higher and higher point ranges in order to be more balanced. Keeping the physical locations as basically small demo station to sell starter sets is fine.

Then you could have a few "bunker" style stores that are multi-person, 7 days a week locations or simply have a better relationship with the FLGSs in the area. GW makes money if you buy from their store or from the FLGS or from their website. Keep the one man stores as the place to get people interested in the game. Once they are more veteran players, send them off to the nearest "bunker" or FLGS with a bigger community and play area.



To make another comparison to MTG fr a moment. Magic spent a lot of time and effort into researching their own game and how people play it. Timmy, Johnny, Spike, ect. They put in the long term research into their game, so now they only have to focus on making cards, and not focus on the basic rules for the game very much. GW has not put in this long term investment into their game. They make the game they want to make, rather than looking at their players and making a game that suits all of them. (the classic line of Ignoring the Competitive scene). They have not put in the effort of designing a long tern set of basic rules so they can focus simply on making new units and models. Instead, the GW team is forcing themselves to remake the entire game every 5 years or so.



For a long time GW has not had major competition in the market, but that is changing fast. They need to put in the long term investment into their rules design and put in the effort to have their product line fit their sales model. Their rules design is pushing a lot of people out of the game as they are not offering them what they want, and there are other competitors that do. Their product line is not working with their current sales model, so one or the other will have to change.

 svendrex wrote:
I do not think that the existence of Brick and Mortar stores for GW are the issue, but rather that their current products are not appropriate for that sales setting.


GW wants their physical stores to bring new people into the hobby. The issue is that there is a huge barrier of entry to get into the hobby. a ~$100 starter set + 2 codexes + Paint, Brushes, Glue and tools is not an appropriate way to get people into the hobby. ..............

So what $200USD then? That's not a huge barrier to GWs target market; the parents [of 12-16 year old boys]. These parents will invariable be average or above earners and $200 isn't jack at birthday or Christmas time. Hell I paid about that for the entertainer at my 4yo's party never mind the presents and food. A pair of shoes can cost half that and she goes through them at about 3 pair+ a year.

As to the stores, these are what made GW the industry leader it is today. While others retail chains are shrinking GW has grown it's retail locations. As it says in the Chairman's Preamble "our store are our castles moat". They thrive off of their dominating presence in the UK and they wish to recreate this effect globally. If we see the retail chain reducing then I would suggest GW will need saving. They can not maintain Turnover without it at this point.

Re bunker store in key locations, I'm pretty sure these exist, but commercially they make no sense just to provide gaming space to vets who will likely buy at discount online. Each location must sustain itself for the model to work. This is doubly true where gaming clubs exist.

...........Game design stuff........

Well that's all subjective stuff.

Can you play the rules? Does it sell? Yes on both counts I would suggest. From their PoV does GW have an issue here then? Of course not.