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That's a good start but that still doesn't answer how the runic weapons are any more effective than normal force weapons (seeing as how both are effective weaponry against the beings of Chaos like Nemesis Force Weapons) besides the extra "propaganda" of the Rune Priest being expected to take Daemons which other Librarians (i.e. Mephiston taking down M'kar the Reborn) have also done.

You also still have to take into account how a handful of Rune Priests in comparison to the vast amounts of highly skilled sorcerers/psykers in the Thousand Sons ranks ala people like Ahriman/Magnus would not make these runic weapon defenses look paltry in comparison. Again there are only so many Rune Priests in the Space Wolf Legion whereas the Thousand Sons have at least 3 psykers or more for every one of them. The numbers game does not favour them nor have they shown greater psychic mastery or prowess than the Thousand Sons. Again, as previous people have said already, if Horus was worried about the Thousand Sons/Space Wolves defending the Emperor then why did he state that the Thousand Sons were the ones he feared for their witchcraft/sorcery and not the Space Wolves?

Can't you just flip open page 36 at the Space Wolves codex instead of playing contrary?

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Can't you just flip open page 36 at the Space Wolves codex instead of playing contrary?

Spoiler:

Runic Weapon: Runic Weapons are the signature tools of the Rune Priests, often taking the form of staffs or wickedly bladed axes. Carved with protective sigils and canticles of banishment, the weapon affords excellent protection against the Warp. A Runic Weapon is a Force Weapon. Furthermore whenever an enemy model succeeds on a Psychich test within 24" of the bearer roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified. A runic weapon always wound Daemon models on the of a 2+. This special ability has no effect on vehicle models.

Again rules don't necessarily transfer very well over into fluff. For example Guardsmen are S3 and Orks are S3, despite fluff saying that the muscle mass and strength of an Ork is typically much higher than an average human. However for the sake of simplicity and with the addition of furious charge this discrepancy in fluff is foregone for the sake of "balance". The limitations of the D6 system are shown through this because if this was shown in a more detailed way through dice with sides more than a D6 like a D10 or so then the humans would be at 3 while an Ork would be at a 3.5-4 and a Space Marine at a 4.5-5. Similarly, do you think Heavy Bolters actually only shoot a round of 3 shots? Of course not! The game is an abstract of the actual fluff so to use it as evidence in a fluff-based argument is like me using WoW game statistics (i.e. class stats and abilities in the current patch) as a determiner of which class is the best in combat in WoW in the realm of fluff, even though game stats doesn't carry over to fluff due to things like patches and game design/balance which doesn't accurately represent the fluff to its fullest extent. Because in that case the hunter would be the strongest class in fluff through a significant portion of the time of the expansion The Burning Crusade and that Rogues can actually turn transparent when they sneak around.

You also have to realize that this doesn't change the ultimate question as to how Rune Priests would be more adept than the Thousand Sons at defending Terra from the threats of the empyrean as both in terms of numbers and psychic expertise the Rune Priests are outmatched by them. And I have to bring up again how runic weapons in the long run would make any more significant difference against daemons than literal anti-warp beings like Pariahs (which they had to use against the Thousand Sons which already implies that the runic weaponry and its effectiveness are exaggerated by poorly written rules) through the previous examples that you have ignored such as the Space Wolf contingent that accompanied the Blood Angels to Signus Prime as well as no actual historical fight scenes where the Rune Priest used his runic weapon as a decisive tool to defeat something like a Greater Daemon, even Njal Stormcaller only defeated a Bloodthirster through normal psychic means (i.e. conjuring a blizzard/storm) rather than in close combat.

Assuming everything went normally I would say the attack on Terra would have been decided by the Imperial Fists going traitor. They would have been able to easily destroy the imperial palace as they made it. The Emperor wouldn't have been able to attack the vengeful spirit without the veterans. I just think they would have swayed it.

Really Grimskul, I think you could've just quoted me quoting you as a response (albeit with the tabletop =/= fluff mention)...

Just Dave wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Here is the page-quote in the Space Wolves codex

Spoiler:

Rune Priests carry graven weapons covered from end to end in ancient runes that glow red-hot when power is channeled through them. It is with these runes that the psykers of the Space Wolves control and direct the fury of the elements. Rune Priests also carry talismans and totems with them, potent weapons against the powers of the Warp. With these tools it is the duty of the Rune Priest to banish the most terrifying of Daemons, those whoose hide is proof against the steel of lesser men. This and more the Rune Priests perform without hesitation or complaint. Such is their legend that many Space Wolves believe to fight alongside a Rune Priest is to witness the ancient sagas come to life.

Hopes you are happy.

Grimskul wrote: I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).

Grimskul wrote:But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments.

Emphasise mine.

Grimskul wrote:Pariahs (which they had to use against the Thousand Sons which already implies that the runic weaponry and its effectiveness are exaggerated by poorly written rules)

Although, regarding the use of the Sisters of Silence as a reflection of the Space Wolves abilities; I think it's a case of using the best weapons available and "better safe than sorry". The Space Wolves had/have a reputation for thoroughness, effeciency and even over-compensation, and I think the application of the Sisters of Silence is a reflection of this, rather than their own abilities.
Even IF the Space Wolves were superb anti-psykers/anti-daemons, why not bring the Sisters of Silence along to make sure the job gets done thoroughly, with minimum casualties and/or to make sure Magnus couldn't use any psychic mojo if apprehended?

In turn the thousand sons being full strength loyal would probably sway it for the loyalists

Well I just posted it all.

As for the weapons, I guess the best way of dealing with demons should be artillery or air-strikes. Especially with the Greater ones, but that would make for not very cool fluff.

Skarbrand and his followers are approaching the Imperial line. "Fire on position Alpha-Lima-Foxtrot!" Churs the colonel into the vox. Next Skarbrand's red ass is banished back to the warp as two dozen Manticores hit him and his followers.

Simple
SW are good vs psykers - hell NO, they are just like any marine
SW are good vs chaos corruption - hell YES (*insert protective runes with their superstition and canix helix *)...

With Horus attacking Terra they would be perfect for s.w.a.t. missions (taking down a primarch, blowing up some crucial objects), pack going for the throat, like ADB said...For general defense I pick UM...

Just imagine if Russ and Magnus kissed and made peace...
Combined forces of TS and SW :
- Wolves single chanel bezerking, TS warping and hindering them magicaly + Russ and Magnus attacking Horus...
...bye, bye brightest star.....

@Just Dave

I had actually already referenced you beforehand and because Beaviz didn't deign to provide a legitimate rebuttal to our similar mindset of how the Thousand Sons would have been a greater asset mystically/psyker wise than the Space Wolves. He ignored it so I had to repeat myself in a more semantic matter.

Also Beaviz, does this mean you concede? I don't really get what you mean by "Well I just posted it all".

Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

cowmonaut wrote:
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).

Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.

Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).

cowmonaut wrote:
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

Horus wasn't willing to tangle with those three, thats just how it turned out and he decided to attack anyways. In Fear to Tread it is obvious that Horus and the Chaos Gods see Sanguinius as a serious threat, which is why the Signus trap was designed specifically for him and his legion. On that note, if the Signus trap had succeeded either in destroying or turning Sanguinius then Chaos would have won at Terra. Regardless of what his legion adds to the party, Sanguinius himself was an absolute beast during the Siege and it would have turned out very differently had he not been there.

To be honest most people are going to find justification for their favorite legion to be the one that really made a difference, so take all of this with a grain of salt. In reality, any one of the legions changing sides would have been a huge factor.

 Orblivion wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

Horus wasn't willing to tangle with those three, thats just how it turned out and he decided to attack anyways. In Fear to Tread it is obvious that Horus and the Chaos Gods see Sanguinius as a serious threat, which is why the Signus trap was designed specifically for him and his legion. On that note, if the Signus trap had succeeded either in destroying or turning Sanguinius then Chaos would have won at Terra. Regardless of what his legion adds to the party, Sanguinius himself was an absolute beast during the Siege and it would have turned out very differently had he not been there.

To be honest most people are going to find justification for their favorite legion to be the one that really made a difference, so take all of this with a grain of salt. In reality, any one of the legions changing sides would have been a huge factor.

This. But Sanguinius would have made an incredible difference.

 Just Dave wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).

Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.

Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).

Except you are missing the point...completely
Chaos (who pretty much controls Horus) directly intervened to clash SW and TS (insert Amon & Horus ) - so this vision of future Horus/deamon isn't really wrong.... and also this was after TS were out of the chess board...
Same thing about BA, except they wanted them on their side....

No, I nailed the point: they wanted every obstacle removed. The Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, the Blood Angels, the Ultramarines, the White Scars, the Dark Angels...

Chaos intervened to stop the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons, of course; just as they intervened with the Dark Angels, with the Ultramarines, with the Blood Angels.

The Space Wolves were not the only Legion that represented a genuine military threat. As I said, of course they're dangerous, but to suggest the White Scars or Ultramarines weren't military threats...?

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
Really, all that needed to be said was quoted by DarthMarko:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

HeraldofDisease wrote:If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them.

You have to keep in mind though that the 9 Traitor Legions are not and never were united really. For example Magnus was only declared a traitor because he used sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. And some say the Dark Angels hanged back to see who was winning the Siege. So even 8v8 is an unlikely match up.

But in the end, what [user]DarkMarko]/user] quoted is canon. Horus himself said the Space Wolves were the only real military threat. So if Alpha Legion hadn't delayed the Space Wolves, the Siege would have been over a lot quicker. If Horus was willing to fight the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars simultaneously, but didn't want to fight the Space Wolves at all, that makes me think that the SW really had it going on and would be a major if not deciding factor.

Except, seemingly, Horus didn't say that: a Daemon did. He was getting all threats out of the way; same as what happened (or tried to happen) to almost every other Legion: such as the Ultramarines at Calth, the Blood Angels at Signus, etc. He didn't want any of them there, Blood Angels and White Scars included, not just the Space Wolves (and Thousand Sons).

Yes, the Space Wolves are bad-ass, of course they are. But are they any more potent psychically or against Daemons than other Librarians/Legions? I'd say no. Are they more of a military threat than a Legion that outnumbers them approximately three-to-one; the Ultramarines? Again, I'd say no.

Personally, I think the key thing for the Wolves isn't that they are any more of a threat than other Legions, but that they were unquestionably loyal and that Horus wouldn't be able to afford to have the Wolves get the drop on him, or fight him on their terms (moreso than most others IMHO).

Except you are missing the point...completely
SW are not UM - fact (but they can always try to be UM )...For overal battle (sector wise) UM would be great, while for taking down a target (fe: battle-barge, primarch) pack tactic is no.1....hands down...
Chaos (who pretty much controls Horus) directly intervened to clash SW and TS (insert Amon & Horus ) - so this vision of future Horus/deamon isn't really wrong.... and also this was after TS were out of the chess board...
Same thing about BA, except they wanted them on their side....
And Sanguinius was also crucial IMHO...If he had turned, Terra would be fethed...and maybe even Horus...

You've messed up your quotes...

... and have seemingly reduced the idea of "genuine military threat" to only the ability to take down a specific target; something the Space Wolves are not alone in being able to do. The Ultramarines proved themselves capable of as much as Eskrador, the White Scars in taking the Lion's Gate Space Port, and the Blood Angels at Signus.
And even then, that doesn't represent the nature of a siege that the OP referred to, or the general concept of a "genuine military threat".

 Just Dave wrote:
You've messed up your quotes...

... and have seemingly reduced the idea of "genuine military threat" to only the ability to take down a specific target; something the Space Wolves are not alone in being able to do. The Ultramarines proved themselves capable of as much as Eskrador, the White Scars in taking the Lion's Gate Space Port, and the Blood Angels at Signus.
And even then, that doesn't represent the nature of a siege that the OP referred to, or the general concept of a "genuine military threat".

Yep - I messed them up pretty bad ...

on topic - I don't wanna sound like a fanboy (really), but wolves were really made specially for taking down a big boy (like ADB nicely put)...
If they were more like a UM (like generals) I wouldn't like them so much....Anyway my two cents on that....

Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...

... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway; for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too? And did I not just outline other Legions as being capable of doing the same?
AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.

 Just Dave wrote:
Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...

... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.

NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...

... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.

NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....

His reference to the pack tactics was really only against the World Eaters though, as they were the only legion to not follow the "brotherhood" mentality of Astartes. That is the strength of the Astartes versus say, the Custodes. They train and fight alongside each other for decades, even centuries as brothers. The pack mentality really doesn't give any advantage over this.

Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.

While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.

I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.

The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.

The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.

They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.

And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.

 Orblivion wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Which, as I said, doesn't make them the only "genuine military threat": it would only make them the best at one thing...

... Which quite possibly isn't even the case anyway (for was that not the Luna Wolves speciality too?). AD-B himself claimed their position as "executioner" is self-imposed (something I don't entirely believe, myself); for, as someone else suggested, it may instead be that their "speciality" is their willingness to be 'whatever they needed to be', or however the quote went.

NO..big fat NO...Don't even go there please.....That was Kharn's ranting....On FB he said that he supports them as Ex, just not the dumb anti astartes gene theory, rather pack tactics and loyalty (+insert a dog joke here+)....

His reference to the pack tactics was really only against the World Eaters though, as they were the only legion to not follow the "brotherhood" mentality of Astartes. That is the strength of the Astartes versus say, the Custodes. They train and fight alongside each other for decades, even centuries as brothers. The pack mentality really doesn't give any advantage over this.

Tell that to Phosis T'kar who was toying with them :-) Kidding

But also agree with you, they are Emps personal body guards after all......

Also you have to see different portrayal of Custodians, I mean they are sometimes SM+1, and sometimes not....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeffDred wrote:


They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.

And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.

???

DA and SW arival was imminent IIRC....

They even went toe to toe with traitors in the imperial palace...

 DeffDred wrote:
Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.

While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.

I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.

The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.

The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.

They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.

And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.

True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.

Nobody mentioned retribution fleet and the IF...?

What do you think happened if retreat order didn't came?
We know Perturabo was losing and that IF captain said that he has a chance to win this...

 Orblivion wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Horus was a master tactician. He worked long and hard at spreading his brothers across the galaxy so they would not be in viable positions when his strike came.

While some legions were tied up with difficult tasks or seperated over multipule theaters he commanded the Ultramarines to head to the farthest reaches of the the farside of the galaxy.

I don't think their is any doubt as to who would destroy the traitors. The Ultramarines outnumbered all other legions combined... barring the Word Bearers.

The WBs were sent to stop the Ultras before they could regroup and... WIN. So Horus need the other largest legion to take the Ultras on.

The Ultras had to be taken by surprise, suggesting that the even the WBs with egual numbers was not a force capable of defeating the Ultras on even ground.

They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.

And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.

True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.

Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.

The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.

I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.

 DeffDred wrote:
Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.

The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.

I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.

Fair enough, but by the same token the Ultramarines DIDN'T make it to Terra in time.

 Orblivion wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
Yes, but I was talking about what DID happen. Not a "what if". The Salamanders din't escape because they weren't a match for the traitor forces... even with the Iron Hands and Raven Guard to help.

The White Scars don't have a lot of stories about their actions on Terra. When I think about it, all I remember is them rushing out the front gates at some point.

I imagine it must have been hard to keep them cooped up in the palace.

Fair enough, but by the same token the Ultramarines DIDN'T make it to Terra in time.

Like I said, Horus was a master tactician.

What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...

 DarthMarko wrote:
What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...

He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.