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 Sword Of Caliban wrote:
If isstvan never happened I think luther would have remained loyal. The full da legion will then have gone to get that machine that lets them do precision warp jumps journeyed to terra emerged from the warp in terras orbit cut through the traitor fleet like a knife through butter made planetfall brought terror to the night lords the lion would kill curze. The da would make the difference the lion and luther would be unstoppable.

I definitely believe the Lion would have remained faithful to the big E regardless of his other flaws.

Luther though had deteriorated mentally and emotionally independent of the events on Istvaan so that ship had sailed already. You had the whole civil war thing on Caliban regardless of Istvaan. Also, the Lion had been ignoring Luther for decades so they were not exactly the super team of Batman and Robin anymore, nor could they become it again.

 HeraldofDisease wrote:


The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.

I hear this alot, I try to refute it every time.

I really don't understand why people think that just because Gulliman wrote the codex he seems incapable of thinking outside the box. Lets go with what we know, first up, the man was an absolute genius, and this has never been in contention. Not as given to rage or childishness to many of his brothers, logical, tactically brilliant, sensible, circumspect, why on earth wouldnt he think outside the box if needs be?

I can do that, and I'm merely intelligent.

Seriously, the Israelis wrote the book on tactical training for combating suicide bombers. I've read it, I've absorbed it, I had to do so much bloody OPTAG training before all of my tours of Iraq and Afghanistan I can never forget it. Inappropriate clothing, A robotic walk, irritability, sweating, tics, nervous behavior, freshly shaved, mumbled prayers... Its all right there, but do I still listen to my gut and ignore it all if needs be? Sure I do.

Al-Qaeda read it as well. Warfare out in Ganners with civvies everywhere became like a giant game of scissor paper rock. The Taliban knew what we looked for cars with low suspension for IEDs, so they stopped loading them up so heavily, they knew we looked for freshly shaved guys, so they started keeping their beards, or they sent a child pushing an IED in a wheelbarrow and he blew two of my buddies out of their boots.

Its a big game of bluff, or double bluff, or triple bluff, such is war. Writing a big ass book doesn't mean you won't ignore the book. It just means you are a clever bastard in the first place. All militaries have big ass books with tactics in, they aren't like the bible.

Gulliman also mentioned ignoring it personally. As does Titus in SM, as does Uriel Ventris.

Personally, I would happily wager a bet on Guilliman against any of the Primarchs, he is the ultimate all rounder, plus his combat prowess is hugely underrated, he does pretty good against both Angron and Lorgar, and did he not (possibly) kill Alpharius anyway? Precisely because he did what the Primarch of the Alpha Legion didn't expect? The UM then were pushed back because the Legion to their credit didn't crumble, but that initial spear thrust was performed because Guilliman entirely abandoned the codex, something he would clearly do if he thought it would make sense during a skirmish.

As any mortal soldier would. Follow the rules, don't follow the rules, whatever you think it takes to win.

Point is, a guy who tries that hard has got to be bad-ass. Studious, professional, not given to rage like many of his brothers, and rage means mistakes. Not given to petulant tempers, just quiet and calm and professional, the consummate soldier.

If you haven't guessed, from reading all of the HH books, I have decided he is easily my favourite primarch. He is one of the few (maybe with Sanguinius, Vulcan, Corax) who actually seems a really nice bloke as well, good to his men, humble. I worked for many more arrogant and haughty officers, and none of them were walking Gods like Robutte.

Wow, so many opportunities!! Someone stated that Horus ranked only 4 Primarchs, but he seriously underestimated Corax, Just Dave puts it greatly here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Just_Dave_Ranks_The_Primarchs_Top_3


Had Istvaan not happened and it turned into a straight fight on Terra then the shock tactics would probably go to Horus, Dorn wouldn't have time to put up such a great defence and the Iron Warriors would trash it anyway. But on the flip side with the hit and run tactics of both Corax and Khan with backup from the remaining loyalists then Chaos would be on the back foot. I doubt Horus would be able to keep Angron on a leash and the Emperor would put him down quickly. Magnus and the Iron Warriors would be the biggest problems for the Imperial defence.

Istvaan had to happen, the traitor legions at Istvaan III had lost roughly 50% of their strength through the protracted fight to destroy the loyalist elements.

Horus was trying to balance the scales, thank the Emperor in the end it failed.

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Istvaan had to happen, the traitor legions at Istvaan III had lost roughly 50% of their strength through the protracted fight to destroy the loyalist elements.

Horus was trying to balance the scales, thank the Emperor in the end it failed.

This.

People often mistake the story as 9 full legions versus 9 full legions. But the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children purged large, large amounts of their forces on Istvaan III and lost more in the fighting. Without Istvaan IV, Horus would have been at a numerical and strategic disadvantage more than he already was. Indeed, much of the seven years prior to the landings on earth were to try to take the loyalist legions out of the fight to even the odds.

Loyalist Casualties and Conflicts:

Dark Angels: Tied up by the Night Lords to no avail and were well sized at the time of the siege of earth (SoE).
Space Wolves: Already a smallish legion and sent to deal with Magnus but seemed to have come out of it in okay fihgting strength for its size.
Blood Angels: A large legion that had to be tied up in the Signus cluster and still survived at large strength for the SoE.
Iron Hands: The elite leadership and primarch were killed on Istvaan III but much of the legion was not present and thus survived to harass the traitors in groups.
Salamanders: Virtually annihilated on Istvaan V and already a small legion.
Raven Guard: Virtually annihilated on Istvaan V.
Ultramarines: Largest legion that lost a 1/3 of it's fighting strength at Calth (and most of its fleet), but even after the event was still the largest legion.
White Scars: Tied up by Alpha Legion but as far as story goes was still at or near full strength as of the SoE.
Imperial Fists: Lost much of the retribution force at Phall but also damaged the Iron Warriors heavily. Much of their force still on Terra and survived.

* So in sum even after the conflicts Horus had to contend with nearly full sized or battle ready legions of 7 (arguably 6 if the Iron Hands were truly useless) of the 9 legions by the time of the SoE. Lets look at the traitors.

Traitor Casualties and Conflicts:

Sons of Horus: Lost a good part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III.
Death Guard: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III.
World Eaters: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III.
Emperor's Children: Lost a large part of their legion to purges and then fighting on Istvaan III.
Alpha Legion: Seems to have been in good fighting strength as of the SoE.
Thousand Sons: Devastated on Prospero.
Night Lords: Lost a good part of their legion to their battles with the Dark Angels.
Iron Warriors: Seem to have been in good fighting strength as of the time of the SoE less the battle of Phall losses which may or may not have significant.
Word Bearers: Lost a significant part of their legion in the failed attack on Calth.

* Other than the Thousand Sons, Horus had only seemingly 2 legions with full or near full battle strength with the rest capable (not trying to diminish that) but significantly depleted. Indeed, this doesn't take into account any purges that the other 5 traitor legions might have performed. This gives Horus 8 legions of the 9 that are functional but all but 2 (maybe not even that) are very depleted.

What this means, at least for the story, was that time was against Horus as his rebellion had fewer troops to call on. Istvaan III was likely a foolish endeavor in terms of depleting their forces and only the victory on Istvaan V could have even allowed the heresy to proceed with any sane measure of success.

In specific reference to this thread, I think the word bearers could have decided it for the traitors if they had won at calth. As the largest traitor force they had the best opportunity to tip the scales as by taking out the UMs they could have focused on taking out another legion, such as the DAs and possibly changed the balance.

If he kept the Night Lords and Iron Warriors in his good graces. The Iron Warriors would have defended his palace and the Night Lords would have waged the Guerrilla war Corax wanted.

It has to be Ultramarines.

The Battle of Terra and the assault on the Imperial Palace was more about an all out assault than it was a traditional fight (from everything I've seen and read of the battle). So the subtlety of the Alpha Legion or the stealth of the Raven Guard ect. ect. wouldn't have really mattered. What mattered most was numbers. More men for the meat grinder.

 Ignatius wrote:
It has to be Ultramarines.

The Battle of Terra and the assault on the Imperial Palace was more about an all out assault than it was a traditional fight (from everything I've seen and read of the battle). So the subtlety of the Alpha Legion or the stealth of the Raven Guard ect. ect. wouldn't have really mattered. What mattered most was numbers. More men for the meat grinder.

Traitors had Daemons. Infinite numbers of daemons IIRC. Or at least, the Word Bearers had.

The Space Wolves would have been better with they going Soup-Nazi "No sossery for you!!"

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The Space Wolves would have been better with they going Soup-Nazi "No sossery for you!!"

Nah. Horus was afraid of the fact that Wolves AND Smurf were coming (plus... uh... DA? WS? I don't remember tbh).

I was answering about the battle of Terra and the powers of the hypocrites known as the Space Wolves could have won Empy the battle, but then again they were away trying to butcher the Thousand Sons.

Do you actually believe the Wolves would have made as much of an impact as the Ultras?

I don't mean that condescendingly btw (no tone in text), just a genuine question.

Yeah because they would have closed the gates of demons pouring in. It's logical by subtraction. I must admit the Ultras was second to me, but the Space Wolves had the power to power down the gates that gated in demons.

And since when have I been anything but respectful to you JustDave?

@Dave if you belive Hawser's deamonic visions I would say yes...They would be perfect fe for taking down a primarch - but all around UM are more useful IMHO....


On the other hand sheer number of UM on Terra would be awesome...
Angron would die from happines :-)

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Yeah because they would have closed the gates of demons pouring in. It's logical by subtraction. I must admit the Ultras was second to me, but the Space Wolves had the power to power down the gates that gated in demons.

And since when have I been anything but respectful to you JustDave?

So are you saying that, through their continued use of psykers, the Wolves would've been the greater asset?

Not a bad thought. Certainly hard to argue against (assuming they'd get away with it), but as to whether its superior to a Legion approximately three times their size? Personally, I'd say not.

The Space Wolves are a clear case of the hypocrite is right, and as mentioned I said they could have closed the demon gates, nothing more nothing less. They would have hindered Chaos gaining the foothold on Terra as they are known to be spanners in the works since they were operational, Empy himself had them as his loyal attack-dog, and they tends towards being hypocrites.

I don't mind at all, why do you? They would be addition by subtraction. Nothing more nothing less.

@Beaviz

Wait, how would they have been able to close the mess that Magnus made in the Imperial Webway? The Emperor was forced to stay on the Golden Throne to even manage to hold the hordes at bay as it was a matter of the psychic and physical structures having been irrevocably damaged and ruined. If the Emperor wasn't able to fix it by the time the traitors came to Terra how would the Wolves fare any better? It wasn't simply a matter of closing a few doors/gates it was having to repair entire tears and holes in their section of the Webway from which the Daemons spurted out from like blood coming out of a severed jugular vein. If it was as simple as just utilizing military might to close the gates then Imperial Fists/another legion should have been able to close it without fuss, especially if the Emperor rescinded the Edict of Nikea in this case for the Librarians to use their powers to "close it"; seeing how this didn't occur this is clearly not the case. Furthermore, if a powerful psyker like Malcador wasn't able to hold off the hordes of daemons but for a few hours before he died what would make the Wolves able to do it? If anything it's more likely the Wolves would give the loyalists the edge in terms of military prowess and ferocity to throw back and possibly reclaim several strategic points from the traitors.

Also I don't get how them being hypocrites has anything to do with them being able to seal off the Imperial Webway.

I agree with Grimskul.

I don't understand how you made the conclusion that the Space Wolves would have closed all of chaos' warp gates and won the battle that way. Horus even said he was afraid of them because of their military prowess. If they could pose that much of a threat to his armies through magic, then why would Hours say they are a military threat, not the magic one?

And pre Calth numbers, Ultramarines>Space Wolves

@Grimskul

I think labelling Space Wolves repeatedly as hypocrites is just @Beaviz81's way of showing that he REALLY doesn't like the Space Wolves.

@King Pariah

Yeah...I've kind of gotten that vibe from him since the last time we talked about them. Though in a weird way he seems to be adamant in their defense as far as mutations/thunderwolf speculations go with him waving their codex as absolute truth (with no citations may I add) while completely disregarding the nature of the setting and other "canon" Horus Heresy/otherwise fluff.

Regardless, back on topic I think it's pretty clear that militarily it would likely be the Ultramarines (due to sheer numbers and Roboute's ability to manage the defenses alongside the other Primarchs) or the Thousand Sons potentially to be honest. Because if they were still in the game as loyalists not only would Magnus be sitting on the Golden Throne holding the daemons at bay (if they were managed to be taken in properly as planned with little fuss from Russ/Horus assuming Magnus had still wrecked the Imperial Webway) which would allow the Emperor to actually be proactive in his defense beyond Terra but also give the crucial psychic/sorcery needed to combat the warp-based foes that Horus and the Word Bearers in particular deployed from previous sacrificial rituals. Their ensured loyalty by extension also means the Wolves would be freed up to defend Terra as well, setting up the very scenario that Horus dreaded facing. This also of course likely includes the Emperor somehow circumventing their flesh change/pact with Tzzentch in some way (soul binding, etc. to get rid of corruptive tutelaries) and even in the case where this doesn't happen I could still see the Thousand Sons wreaking havoc among the foe while succumbing to the flesh change before they are consumed with power.

I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.

 King Pariah wrote:
@Grimskul

I think labelling Space Wolves repeatedly as hypocrites is just @Beaviz81's way of showing that he REALLY doesn't like the Space Wolves.

I actually do like them. It's just that in this case the hypocrite is right. It's in the well-known god is not nice territory which so many guys in the IOM falls under.

The Space Wolves Rune Priests seems to have a purer connection to the warp, where as the rest doesn't have that purity. And I also reffed to the TT-fact that they can do anti-psychic-things to other guys. You know the 3+ thingy against other psykers.

Seeing a full Iron Hands legion and primarch at the siege of terra would have been interesting, as their primarchs way of war is woefully underdeveloped

 Just Dave wrote:
I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.

The rift idea is spot on along with that the Space Wolves seems to have been created to curtail other Space Marine-chapters and to be able to banish any demons, which can't be denied would be a tremendous asset for the siege. Even so the best asset was on Empy's side the unbreakable and dour Imperial Fists the ultimate defenders in this dark galaxy.

But then again having the mighty jack of all trades the Ultramarines there would be good, as they do good in all situations of any battlefield and they have the manpower to one-up the traitors.

Assuming everything elses happend as in cannon and we can only change one thing, id have to say the ultras showing up would have done the damage.

As has been mentioned even after the fight a calath they were still by far the biggest legion, and you need to remeber back then a legion wasnt just the marines each chapter (pre heresey chapter ie company equivialnt) had several imperial army regiments assigned to them so for every extra 1000 marines you have several thousand normal troops plus associated ordinace.

On top of that from alot of the HH short storys and such we see ultramarines picking up loyalist comands from the traitor legions further bolstering the numbers but more importantly bringing with them there chapters ways of war.

i dont care how many deomns you have if the sky turns blue and starts raining smurfs and leman russ battle tanks your screwed

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I don't think (or at least I hope not) he's referring to them closing the webway, but rather any rifts etc. that spring up during the siege, and generally just fighting Daemons.
The Emperor practically can't do anything about the webway it seems: the wolves wouldn't make much of a difference with this.
But having psykers is a truly valuable asset, but then, under the OP's stipulations, the loyalists could just have the Thousand Sons instead: who would clearly be superior. And even then, would the Thousand Sons be a better asset than 25 times as many Ultramarines? I'd say no, again, myself.

The rift idea is spot on along with that the Space Wolves seems to have been created to curtail other Space Marine-chapters and to be able to banish any demons, which can't be denied would be a tremendous asset for the siege. Even so the best asset was on Empy's side the unbreakable and dour Imperial Fists the ultimate defenders in this dark galaxy.

But then again having the mighty jack of all trades the Ultramarines there would be good, as they do good in all situations of any battlefield and they have the manpower to one-up the traitors.

How exactly would the Space Wolves be able to seal any warp rifts simply by being there? I can see Russ having anti-psyker ability but by and large the Legion itself is not made of blanks/pariahs so I don't understand where you're getting the idea that they have innate anti-Daemon abilities. At most their innate faith in their talismans/fetishes might give them some sort of resistance to psychic attacks but as "A Thousand Sons" demonstrates on Shrike they are just as vulnerable to any other marine to direct psychic attacks/abilities and this false idea of their anti-daemon prowess is further shown when they attacked Prospero. If they were so anti-daemonic/psychic they wouldn't have to had to bring Sisters of Silence to provide an edge against the Thousand Sons psychic abilities. Further evidence they don't simply have anti-daemonic powers ala Grey Knights is how they weren't able to do anything on Signus Prime when the Blood Angels were ambushed by Ka'Bandha and Kyriss in the HH novel "Fear to Tread"; yes they were a small contingent but according to you they would have been able to waltz through most of the daemonic hordes and promptly banish the greater daemon that even Sanguinis had trouble dealing with...of course that never happened and they instead got torn to shreds by Blood Angels who went mad from the Black Rage unlocked from Ka'Bandha slaughter of the Blood Angels.

Could you provide some sources of them being able to banish any daemons? And to be a bit clear, no, runic weapons/tabletop rules don't really count considering that rules don't necessarily translate well into fluff. (Even then it's one special rule versus the plethora of specific rules the GK have against them so I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).

I'm pointing to that the Rune Priests could close rifts popping up as Just Dave mentioned. I actually considered the discussion finished tbh.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I'm pointing to that the Rune Priests could close rifts popping up as Just Dave mentioned. I actually considered the discussion finished tbh.

But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments. The whole "purity" of the source of the Rune Priests power wouldn't matter much either given the fact that if the Thousand Sons had stayed loyal the Emperor would have most likely at some level stabilized or at least hindered the flesh change and possibly banish the tutelaries from screwing things up from his massive psychic presence like in "A Thousand Sons".

Again, providing some legitimate sources to back yourself up would be greatly appreciated just to prevent yourself from looking like you're hiding behind other people's arguments and deliberately avoiding hard evidence so you can prevent making your argument look weaker.

Here is the page-quote in the Space Wolves codex

Hopes you are happy.

Beaviz81 wrote:Here is the page-quote in the Space Wolves codex

Spoiler:

Rune Priests carry graven weapons covered from end to end in ancient runes that glow red-hot when power is channeled through them. It is with these runes that the psykers of the Space Wolves control and direct the fury of the elements. Rune Priests also carry talismans and totems with them, potent weapons against the powers of the Warp. With these tools it is the duty of the Rune Priest to banish the most terrifying of Daemons, those whoose hide is proof against the steel of lesser men. This and more the Rune Priests perform without hesitation or complaint. Such is their legend that many Space Wolves believe to fight alongside a Rune Priest is to witness the ancient sagas come to life.

Hopes you are happy.

Grimskul wrote: I don't necessarily think that one "anti-daemon" weapon is sufficient enough to say the entire Space Wolf legion was anti-daemonic as an army in any real sense).

Grimskul wrote:But where have they done that explicitly and easily in fluff better than any other Librarian/Imperial Psyker? Considering Malcador was able to rescind the Edict of Nikea for his Knights Errant group (including allowing Ultramarines Librarian Tylos Rubio to use his powers) I'm pretty sure they would have allowed the Librarians/psykers left on Terra to handle this problem. Furthermore, if this is the case then wouldn't the Thousand Sons be more effective than the Rune Priests given that the vast majority of their legion were psykers including Magnus who was second only to the Emperor himself in psychic mastery? Just Dave made the same conclusion/argument with which you didn't bother replying to as well as my previous arguments.

Emphasise mine.