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Ok. So assuming EVERY legion were able to join in the assualt/defense of Terra do you think it would have made a difference in the outcome? Perhaps more Primarchs dead, the Emperor not being interred into the golden throne? Sanguinis living? And then I also want to see some speculation as to which legions on which side would have made a bigger effect on the outcome. Iron Warriors being Loyalists and Imperial Fists traitors? World Eaters staying loyal and maybe the Thousand Sons turning to Chaos without the Wolves attacking them? I want to stimulate minds and engage in an in depth conversation that explains intelligently who would do what, and why (Or why not for that matter) it may have helped. Even if it involves Sanguinis being the arch traitor instead of Horus. SPECULATE!

Is this assuming the incidents on Isstvan III and Isstvan V never happened?

IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...

+ If SW and TS were not bickering, their combined forces would would kick Horus so hard that the Empy wouldn't have to left the chair.....

I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

 DarthMarko wrote:
IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...

Nah the IF is the reason of why the HH ended in defeat. Their defensive genius is the sole reason as it enabled a mere Imperial Guardsman to go on equal footing with Superman.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
Is this assuming the incidents on Isstvan III and Isstvan V never happened?

For sake of simplicity we will say yes. Just because that would too many factors to try to put into this one thread.

The fact the Ultramarines couldn't make it to the party is one of the reasons you still see Chaos Marines today. Size-wise, I'd give the advantage to the loyalists, solely because of the Ultras.

 DarthMarko wrote:
IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...

+ If SW and TS were not bickering, their combined forces would would kick Horus so hard that the Empy wouldn't have to left the chair.....

I am clearing the board for the game to come,’ he said. ‘I am setting it out the way I want it. Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the Sons of Prospero and the Wolves of Fenris. The former is the only Legion that has lorecraft enough to hinder me magically; the latter is the only Legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat. The Emperor’s sorcerers and the Emperor’s executioners. I have no wish to store up a fight with either for my future, so I have invested time and energy arranging events to turn them upon each other.’
I gazed at him in disbelief. He shrugged, ruefully.
‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he would never have toppled over the brink without this violent provocation. I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as threats at a stroke. But Magnus and Russ have remained true to character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal, has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’

If the SW and TS would have teamed up then yes, it would have been UNPLEASANT. lol, but I'm trying to also keep this balanced. Nine traitor legions, nine loyalists. Which I think either way they would be on opposite teams though. ANY of the Primarchs would have been smart enough to know to seperate them. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
The fact the Ultramarines couldn't make it to the party is one of the reasons you still see Chaos Marines today. Size-wise, I'd give the advantage to the loyalists, solely because of the Ultras.

The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.

www.bolterandchainsword.com/heresy/thedornianheresy.pdf

Here's something interesting.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
IW would be great instead of Dorn IMHO....Warsmith Dantioch as chief of construction...

Nah the IF is the reason of why the HH ended in defeat. Their defensive genius is the sole reason as it enabled a mere Imperial Guardsman to go on equal footing with Superman.

I'm not sure. that decision would require ALOT of analysis. While Dorn is a genius so was Perturabo. Yes Dorn focused on Defense while Perturabo was all out offense, they were quite a few IW who were very defense oriented. I'm not sure it the poster before is referring to the one that made the underground castle structure (I forget which book. one of the short stories) He defended his structure with VERY few men compared to the traitor IW. his fortress stood up months against Titans, air strikes, and raids that drove deeper and deeper. yet every time he had the perfect defense, a tertiary plan to his secondary plan. and in the end gave them all the finger by dropping it straight into lava. HE could have made a huge difference alone I'm sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
www.bolterandchainsword.com/heresy/thedornianheresy.pdf

Here's something interesting.

Very Nice! Looks like I have something to occupy myself with, mucho grande thanks!

As far as legions staying loyal it would've been the Word Bearers that would've had the greatest impact. The 2nd largest legion that is also are fanatically loyal would've ended the thing very quickly.

With Horus at the head of the traitors there isn’t much room for the big guys like Sanguinis , Dorn or the Lion in the mix. Horus doesn't seem to be the sharing type and would've come to blows or downright eliminated them as competitors. Horus has a following of the more downtrodden primarchs who seem more willing to just fulfill a role rather than be the guy in charge. This leads me to believe Horus would've only accepted one of the loyalists who were out of the limelight more like Vulcan or the Khan. While still powerful they don't have the numbers or the personality of someone like Dorn, Gulliman, The Lion or Sanguinis to affect things that greatly. I know this’ll probably start a who’s primarch is better discussion but this is just my opinion.

 eviltrout wrote:
As far as legions staying loyal it would've been the Word Bearers that would've had the greatest impact. The 2nd largest legion that is also are fanatically loyal would've ended the thing very quickly.

With Horus at the head of the traitors there isn’t much room for the big guys like Sanguinis , Dorn or the Lion in the mix. Horus doesn't seem to be the sharing type and would've come to blows or downright eliminated them as competitors. Horus has a following of the more downtrodden primarchs who seem more willing to just fulfill a role rather than be the guy in charge. This leads me to believe Horus would've only accepted one of the loyalists who were out of the limelight more like Vulcan or the Khan. While still powerful they don't have the numbers or the personality of someone like Dorn, Gulliman, The Lion or Sanguinis to affect things that greatly. I know this’ll probably start a who’s primarch is better discussion but this is just my opinion.

Oh yeah! Well my primarch is better than yours! lol. jk. I like your points though. In Fear to Tread it's pretty much agreed on that Horus would never share the limelight. Chaos was busy trying to win over Sanguinis using the Red Thirst, while Horus wanted him dead (Also because it was alluded to the fact that Sanguinis may have become Chaos's new champion were he able to be corrupted) but like I said. it's all a what if scenario. if the Word Bearers were still loyal then yes. they would have put their EVERYTHING into that fight. Their zeal would be unmatched even against superior enemies.

In audio "Warmaster" Horus basically contemplates (read : bitches) about how could he use Bobby G ( if he had him ) or any of the loyalist primarchs...He even calls Perturabo a degenerate IIRC:-) and would trade Corax for Alpharious...
But the fun part of audio is how narrator pronounces Roboute: "Row - bu - teey..."

Seems like Horus ended with wrong crowd and he was pretty pissed because of that....

The Lion seems to be the only loyalist that would've even considered switching sides. He probably wouldn't have fared to well with his personality though. All the other loyal primarchs seem pretty set in their ways and would stay loyal.

The title of this thread should be “What if the Emperor hadn't be a complete moron", because the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons could have all been kept loyal without much action taken. The Word Bearers by accepting that he is a god, which ended up happening anyways. The Thousand Sons by trusting Magnus, who seemed to be the most loyal, until the emperor sent Russ after him, and the Iron Warriors by just paying attention to them and giving them something other than the crap jobs.

Horus seems to get the primarchs that don't have any skills beyond killing things it seems. Although the loyalists have a few just killers the others have skills that would've been useful at the end of the crusade when things need to be managed and run. Magnus and Lorgar are the exception for the traitors.

Perturabo is a brilliant architect and creator as well as a killer.

 eviltrout wrote:
...The Thousand Sons by trusting Magnus, who seemed to be the most loyal, until the emperor sent Russ after him,..

To be fair, the Emperor told Russ to just police Magnus but Horus decided to pull a dick move and change the order from policing to beating, IIRC.

If Russ had refused to allow Horus to override direct Imperial orders, then the Heresy's course would have changed drastically. The Thousand Sons and the Wolves on Terra; it would have derailed everything, as sheer proximity to the Emperor (who would have probably imposed a subconscious block/influence on the Thousand Sons upon arrival on Terra to ensure their powers would not be influenced by Tzeentch) would probably have overturned Tzeentch's hand on the former (plus with the gene-labs so close, the defects in their gene-seed might have been solved right then and there). As for the latter being on Terra...two words: the Rout.

It would also have ensured the Imperial Webway's completion. Assuming the Imperial Webway being completed, and Magnus and Russ reconciled (given the former had apparently seen the error of his ways) would have been back-to-back badasses.

EDIT: If Tzeentch's hold on the Thousand Sons is so absolute, why would Horus fear them as the 'Emperor's sorcerers'? Because its not absolute.

Guilliman rated Dorn, Sanguinius, Leman Russ, and Ferrus Manus. He referred to them as "the dauntless few", and pronounced that he could win any war, outright, if he had those four and their Legions at his side.

IW + IF = best defense against EVERYTHING.
I'm honest WS passed so unnoticed during the Heresy IIRC that I dunno what they could do.

If every legion was at Terra then the loyalists would have one. Why? At the battle of Terra there were, wait for it, 3 loyalist legions, plus Custodes, one and a half million soldiers of the Imperial Army and 3 Titan Legions. Horus had nine Traitor Legions, plus Dark Mechanicus Titans, traitor Imperial Army units and lots and lots of Deamons. When Horus found out that the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarines were on their way, he knew he had to end it quickly, thus lowering the shields on his ship, the Emperor teleported over and the rest, as they say, is history. Imperial Palace was too well fortified for Horus to take if there were more loyalists there, that's why he had the Ultras attacked at Calth, the Alpha Legion were supposed to delay the Space Wolves and the rest were isolated by warp storms. To recap: Horus had essentially nine legions, minus the Word Bearers at Calth, etc. He was fighting the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars on Terra. He knew he would lose if the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines reached Terra in time, that would make it 6 loyalists to 9 traitor legions. The Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands were rendered ineffective at Istvaan. So yeah., if they were all at Terra, Horus would have lost.

Magnus, warns the Emperor through less illegal means. The seals on the webway are never broken. The Emperor leads the counter attack against Horus' forces. The Heresy never even makes it to Terra.

 TheDiscoSpider wrote:
www.bolterandchainsword.com/heresy/thedornianheresy.pdf

Here's something interesting.

Saved for interest. I like.

Potential SPOILER - In Know No Fear

I reckon if it were a straight up loyalists vs traitors, the loyals would win. The fortress of Terra stod up against the full force of the Iron Warriors, World Eaters (including Daemon-mode Angron), Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Daemons, with only the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars to defend them.

If the Ultramarines had have joined it would seriously tip the scales, though the joining of Alpha Legion as a reult would reduce that. If the Dark Angels had have come, along with their Death Guard foes, it would realign the scales.

However, the loyalists were down 3 Legions (Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders) and Ferrus Manus, and Horus and Angron were on completely new levels.

If the Wolves had have joined however it would be something different. They might actually tip the scales slightly in favour.



However, the reason I say Loyals win is because even Horus was afraid of the reinforcements. He knew he would be defeated, and needed a solution. So he lowered his ship's shields, the Emeporer teleports onboard, blah blah blah.


I discount the Titans and humans because they were equally matched as far as this discussion goes

 Deadshot wrote:
I reckon if it were a straight up loyalists vs traitors, the loyals would win. The fortress of Terra stod up against the full force of the Iron Warriors, World Eaters (including Daemon-mode Angron), Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus and Daemons, with only the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars to defend them.

If the Ultramarines had have joined it would seriously tip the scales, though the joining of Alpha Legion as a reult would reduce that. If the Dark Angels had have come, along with their Death Guard foes, it would realign the scales.

However, the loyalists were down 3 Legions (Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders) and Ferrus Manus, and Horus and Angron were on completely new levels.

If the Wolves had have joined however it would be something different. They might actually tip the scales slightly in favour.



However, the reason I say Loyals win is because even Horus was afraid of the reinforcements. He knew he would be defeated, and needed a solution. So he lowered his ship's shields, the Emeporer teleports onboard, blah blah blah.


I discount the Titans and humans because they were equally matched as far as this discussion goes

Yeah. screw the Imp guard and mechanicum. lol



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 eviltrout wrote:
The Lion seems to be the only loyalist that would've even considered switching sides. He probably wouldn't have fared to well with his personality though. All the other loyal primarchs seem pretty set in their ways and would stay loyal.

The title of this thread should be “What if the Emperor hadn't be a complete moron", because the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons could have all been kept loyal without much action taken. The Word Bearers by accepting that he is a god, which ended up happening anyways. The Thousand Sons by trusting Magnus, who seemed to be the most loyal, until the emperor sent Russ after him, and the Iron Warriors by just paying attention to them and giving them something other than the crap jobs.

Horus seems to get the primarchs that don't have any skills beyond killing things it seems. Although the loyalists have a few just killers the others have skills that would've been useful at the end of the crusade when things need to be managed and run. Magnus and Lorgar are the exception for the traitors.

They make it look like the Lion woul dhave switched but one of the short story books (Can't remember which one) absolves him of that. Curze taunts him saying "what will history think? The Primarch who didn't make it. was he contemplating switching sides?" To which the Lion pretty much tells him he doesn't care what history thinks and to feth off. lol (Yes I'm a little bit of a Dark Angels fanboy)

I think that the Raven Guard would have been the deciding factor, personally. I think that their stealth tactics would have been key in bringing home a victory for the loyalist forces. (Since we are assuming the Isstvan massacres never happened, and I'm under the impression that without those early victories, Horus would have been smashed utterly by the time he got to Terra.)

I don't know about Raven Guard being the deciding factor. If all 9 loyalists were there as well as all 9 traitors (and Isstvan Massacre never happened, yada yada), I'd imagine that the Night Lords would be able to possibly pull off a deadlock, which would be perhaps almost certain with possibly the assistance of the Alpha Legion.

I'm going to say Ultramarines. They would have brought much needed numbers and their tactical prowess would also have been a useful bonus.

I don't see how it could be anyone but the Ultramarines. Many like to hate on them, but the Legion was over twice the size of an 'average' Legion, whilst their Primarch was at least (if not more so IMHO) as good a tactician as the others.

To go off Jimsolo's example; the Ultramarines are over 3 times the size of the Raven Guard - that's huge.

I'm going to echo and say the Ultramarines. Even Horus knew that they'd be a headache during the siege of Terra if he hadn't tied them up beforehand. There was just so many of the blue boys.

If isstvan never happened I think luther would have remained loyal. The full da legion will then have gone to get that machine that lets them do precision warp jumps journeyed to terra emerged from the warp in terras orbit cut through the traitor fleet like a knife through butter made planetfall brought terror to the night lords the lion would kill curze. The da would make the difference the lion and luther would be unstoppable.