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You could always just read Battle of the Fang and see that even the Thousand Sons feel that the SWs make really good anti warp wards. Imagine those scibbled all over the palace.
Please, don't compare WBs and UMs. WB weren't so strong, they're force was and still is number superiority. The Ultras had the same strong point, but they were better in this case. Empy whined about Lorgar and the fact that he was slow and wasn't getting gak done quickly enough. The Ultras, despite the hate, got and still get gak done.
Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
Well, their force is the fact that they can summon FUCKHUGE amounts of Daemons. But I think that, without them, the Ultras are far superior.
My two cents.
The wolves are back! *feral howl* "Si vis pacem para bellum"
Orblivion wrote:True, but a change to the situation of any of the legions would have had a huge impact on the outcome. What if the White Scars didn't make it to Terra, leaving only the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels to hold against the Traitor Legions? What if the Salamanders escaped Isstvan and made it to Terra? No matter what legion we're talking about, any one of them could have tipped the balance either way.
I think it's worth assuming, for the sake of the thread/debate, that the sides would be balanced somewhat.
So, say there was the Space Wolves at Terra, they'd replace the Blood Angels for example. Or if the Thousand Sons were loyalist, then the Space Wolves would take their place, that kinda thing.
Just helps the debate; same as ignoring the ol' "no canon" shtick.
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
I at least typically refer to Legions/Primarchs pre-heresy/pre-Chaos; makes things more balanced and informed for the sake of debate IMHO, as a lot of stuff goes up in the air when Chaos gets involved, as ever.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/16 21:21:08
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
DarthMarko wrote: Yeah, but the WB have chaos....I hate them being labeled as the weakest when they have the coolest dark council members in whole heresy...
Well, their force is the fact that they can summon FUCKHUGE amounts of Daemons. But I think that, without them, the Ultras are far superior.
My two cents.
Hey not disputing that, but WB can summon all kinds of devils and they have their uses...
But in Mark of Calth they do get embarrassed by UM....Which I really hate...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...
He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.
They were purged and forgotten respectively.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
HeraldofDisease wrote:The Ultramarines may have made a HUGE difference, but I think that just would have been offset by the Alpha Legion. Alpharius would know Gulliman would be the biggest threat initially, and would have done very subtle things to sap his army or even his legions morale itself. I think that is one of the biggest disadvantages the Ultramrines have. Gulliman is inside the box, where as Alpha Legion is outside of it. Gulliman follows war as it "should" be while Alpharius makes his own rules.
This is a fairly inaccurate assessment of the Ultramarines, and a common misconception with fans not familiar with the fluff. There was very little "inside the box" about Guilliman. He was regarded, in the fluff as fact, not speculation, as the most brilliant overall general among the Primarchs. While Alpharius was always testing out new tactics and strategies, it has always been suggested in the fluff that it was never anything truly innovative, nor anything Guilliman hadn't already thought of.
In fact, in one of the more applicable bits of fluff, Guilliman chastised Alpharius for drawing out one of his campaigns unnecessarily and calling it a waste of time and bolter shells. This suggests that Alpharius wasn't always looking for the best, or most efficient way of doing things, but only that he was looking for a way to prove that he was a great general, and could humiliate his opponents if he wanted to. It is easily inferred that Guilliman could have come up with the same plan Alpharius did, he just wouldn't because it wasn't a very good one. Guilliman was always about doing things the best way. That didn't mean he couldn't adapt or improvise, In fact, anyone who knows anything about warfare knows that all of the greatest generals in real world history have been masters of those very things. "Writing the book on war" wouldn't mean Guilliman was creating a list of instructions for how to fight war, instead it would be offering up the wisdom and experience of countless campaigns mated to basic tenets of maneuver and strategy. In fact, it would be impossible for the Codex Astartes to be an instruction manual on war with set scenarios and solutions for everything, because every battle is different and has hundreds, if not thousands of variables that would make having one way of doing things be impossible.
"I were to sum up what I've learned in 35 years of service, it's improvise, improvise, improvise." - General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, USMC. And Mattis only has 35 years of experience, lol.
Guilliman was one the most successful of the Primarchs, militarily. And on top of that, he was able to build the largest Legion with little effort, create the most stable and productive sectors of the Imperium, and operate with the lowest casualty rates. All of that suggests an incredibly shrewd mind. While I rarely point to the Heresy novels for evidence, Abnett did a fairly good job with Guilliman in KNF.
They tried and they failed. The Ultras were victorious and still managed to scare the entire heretic army away from Terra with just rumors of their arrival.
And when they did arrive? They pushed the enemy back into the Eye of Terror. And still enough survivers from the campaign to begin the second founding.
???
DA and SW arival was imminent IIRC....
They even went toe to toe with traitors in the imperial palace...
It was all three of them. In the "original" version of the Heresy, Horus made sure the Ultramarines were too far away from Terra to take part in the battle. However, the fluff disagrees on who did what or was where. In fact, all the original Chaos Codex books listed it as "Nobody knows why" Horus lowered his shields. Other fluff from 2nd and 3rd Edition suggests that it was because the Ultras, Dangels, and Wolves were closing in on Earf (though in no specific order). Don;t recall any fluff about the Wolves or Dangels actually fighting in the battle, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. The Black Library's Collected Visions book also explicitly mentions all three as approaching Terra as being why Horus lowered his shield to bait the Emprah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/17 02:20:23
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Depends on how you look at efficiency. Waste of time and bolter shells? Sure. Waste of lives? I don't believe so. Guess it depends on what you think is more valuable.
And I believe that that particular incident and those leading up to it reflect more on the arrogance and pride on both the part of Guilliman and Alpharius Omegon. Guilliman with his "you can never hope to accomplish that which I have and will," and Alpharius Omegon rising up to the occasion to try to prove his(their) worth as a commander in the eyes of his brothers (at least Dorn admitted it was an impressive feat of Alpharius, though he labelled it cowardly, unmanly which I suppose reflects upon his arrogance and pride as well).
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
DarthMarko wrote: What if Empy pulled out 2nd and 11th legion during the siege ? Try to picture Horus's face when Empy pulls out 2 jokers from his sleeve...
He couldn't. The 2nd and the 11th were respectively lost and purged IIRC.
They were purged and forgotten respectively.
Or they could both have been purged and forgotten, rather than respectively.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
In the old fluff, where the Alpha legion were fighting the Ultra Marines just after the heresy - The Alpha's were doing really well against the Ultras. They were using the standard 'we've read your codex so we know all your rules' tactic that used to be the way to beat the Ultras. Then Guilliman got annoyed, thought outside the box and surprised Alpharius by just going straight round to Alph's house and killing him in a decapitative strike. The hallmark of the Alphas was that they were still able to function even after the loss of their primarch. This showed that the Alpha legions tactics were valid and that Alpharius severely underestimated Guilliman.
I think the Ultramarines get underestimated in the fluff because of the TT game. In the TT game they are the standard space marines. In the heresy, they were arguably the best legion to have on your side. I think if the Ultras had made it to terra, they would have been the most decisive factor in the battle. The largest, best equipped, possibly the most efficient and highly trained legion would have made the most difference.
Spoiler:
Mind you, Guilliman then tried the same 'cut off the head' tactic on Fulgrim and ended up completely screwed.
Spoiler:
And now it wasn't Alpharius that he killed, it was Omegon. But it might not have been either. There are times I hate retcons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/17 08:39:21
Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
Here is the story when Russ nad Johnson reached Terra:
Spoiler:
The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels dropped into the fighting around the ruins of the Emperor's Palace. Joining forces with the remnants of the White Scars and the Blood Angels they swiftly drove the forces of Chaos from the rubble. Howling his warcry, Russ battled his way into his father's throne-room, slaying every enemy that came within range of his bolter of within reach of his axe. By his side were his wolves, guarding his back, howling warnings of hidden enemies and lamentations for fallen brothers. Through the shadowy halls Russ battled and one by one his bodyguards fell away, slain by their fearsome foes. Russ feared not. THere were monsters in the most sacred hall in the Universe and Russ vowed he would slay every one of them if need be.
Two-headed mutants fell to his blade. Great formless spawn erupted and these he flamed. Daemons stalked the halls, howling in terror, for the Emperor had slain Horus and in turn taken a mortal wound. Russ showed no foe mercy. Hatred was in his heart and death was in his hand.
Russ came at last to the audience chamber. Fallen stone angels lay on the marble floor. The bodies of dead men and monsters were strewn everywhere. Over everything lay an eerie quiet and even the great wolves fell silent. Russ called aloud for the Emperor and his cry echoed, answerless, round the great chamber. He stood alone, at the centre of the world, and wept. He knelt before the Emperor's empty throne and prayed for guidance. In the distance, brazen horns sounded their victorious note. Word of the death of Horus and the arrival of Russ and Jonson had spread and the forces of Chaos fled in full retreat. The dark will that had bound them was gone. For the first time Russ felt no joy in victory and saw no glory in his deeds. In the empty hall, all seemed meaningless and dark, and despair threatened to overtake him.
The air shimmered and Rogal Dorn, stern Primarch of the Imperial Fists appeared. In his arms he carried the broken body of the Emperor. Behind him his men reverently carried the corpse of the eagle-winged Sanguinius. He would fly no more. Russ looked wearily at Dorn. Silently Dorn shook his head. Both men knew that it was over. Horus's treachery had left the Imperium in ruins. The band of brothers was sundered forever. The dream that they had fought for was dead. This was no victory. Russ let out a great howl of grief and rage, and turned and stalked from the Hall.
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The wolves are back! *feral howl* 
