United Kingdom Independence Party hail victory

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**azazel the cat**

Mr Hyena wrote:
Bryllcream, as a Canadian, I'm lacking the understanding of some context here, I'm afraid, but I'm legitimately curious as to what your operational definition of "English" is, in the context of culture. I think I have a vague notion of what you're implying, but I'm not entirely certain, and before engaging with this conversation I'd appreciate being correctly informed as to exactly what you consider "English culture" to be.

Imagine the canadian government removed all 'traditionally' canadian foods with foods traditional to some generic middle eastern country. Imagine they did the same with your customs.

Could you argue it was still canada? or a transplant of a middle eastern country?

1. Is your government regulating away your ability to boil vegetables into a flavourless mush? Could you please cite an example of this ever happening? Seriously.
2. You have no idea how much I would love more Middle Eastern cuisine. I swear, if I lived there I'd weigh 300 pounds. Or stone. Let's just say I'd be really fething fat.
3. What is a "traditional" Canadian food? I'm honestly unclear as to what that would be. Please give me an example of how long a dish must be part of a culture for it to be considered "traditional"; keeping in mind that Canada is not yet 150 years old and originally comprised of two cultures which were quite distinct from one another.

**dæl**

Mr Hyena wrote:
purplefood wrote:
It would be interesting to see a Lib Dem Labour coalition...

Sounds like a 'Quadruple Recession and No Border Control' party to me.

Well that's nonsense considering it's the Conservatives who slowed growth and caused the double and triple dip recessions, and scrapped the UK Border Agency entirely.

How do the politicians know what the beliefs of the people who vote for them are, unless they hold focus groups and surveys?
This is an honest question; please let me know what your answer is.

The romans knew when too much bureaucracy and red tape was severely hindering their nation. In those cases, they saw fit to suspend it to actually get some work done instead of endless debate with no result,

I'm not sure advocating becoming a dictatorship is something you really want to be doing.

Bryllcream, as a Canadian, I'm lacking the understanding of some context here, I'm afraid, but I'm legitimately curious as to what your operational definition of "English" is, in the context of culture. I think I have a vague notion of what you're implying, but I'm not entirely certain, and before engaging with this conversation I'd appreciate being correctly informed as to exactly what you consider "English culture" to be.

Imagine the canadian government removed all 'traditionally' canadian foods with foods traditional to some generic middle eastern country. Imagine they did the same with your customs.
Could you argue it was still canada? or a transplant of a middle eastern country?

Where exactly has this happened?

**Ketara**

To all these people saying immigration is still too high, and the Conservatives have done nothing to tackle it, you may want to look into that a bit further. I'm not fond of Cameron's lot, but if there's one achievement they can boast of, its bringing down the net flow of migration. Here's the figures for the last few years, they show a fairly steady trend of general decline. I've provided a variety of sources, so that nobody can claim biased reporting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9508476/Graphic-Net-migration-falls-as-new-student-visas-drop-by-20-per-cent.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/nov/30/net-migration-uk-falls-data
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21614086

**BryllCream**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

England should be English.

England should be English, you should definitely be allowed to be so. Well, whilst we're at it...

On the condition that Cornwall gets to be Cornish and we get to throw out every single saxon, roman, norman, viking, angle and anyone else we decide we don't like. Piss off back to your own side of the water!!

They come over the Tamar bridge, take our jobs, move into neighborhoods and push the property prices up and all you can smell off em is jellied eels and kidney pies. Then they breed like rabbits and cover our beautiful beaches with their offspring, set up 'artist colonies' and send their graphic designers and city financiers down to set up badly run ostrich farms or alpaca ranches.

They should learn to speak Cornish is what they should do, immigrant scum have no respect for our traditional values. I used to hear them gibbering away in their filthy mongrel tongue on the bus, if I could stop dry-heaving due to the eel smell long enough that is...

Oh yeah and they bring their invasive and demanding religion as well, Cornwall is a Pagan country and they need to follow traditional Pagan values, not demand we recognize their religion as equal, showing up these few hundred years with their 'one god' nonsense. If they don't like it, they should bugger off home!

KURNOW BYS VYKEN!

The Cornish can be Cornish if they have the force to take their freedom from the English government, certainly. That is unlikely though, my dad has been an avid supporter of Cornish nationalism for decades and I am well aware of its middle class Islington roots

I am referring to English people having an English nation. The English people have more or less been driven from large swathes of cities in England, and that bothers people, whether liberal elites want to acknoledge it or not.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
To all these people saying immigration is still too high, and the Conservatives have done nothing to tackle it, you may want to look into that a bit further. I'm not fond of Cameron's lot, but if there's one achievement they can boast of, its bringing down the net flow of migration.

Net flow of migration is irrelevent. If 20 million immigrants move in, and 20 million British people immigrate, do you think that would make this island more or less British?

It's about cultural friction, the average citizen is not racist because of concerns over the strains that immigration puts on local services.

**purplefood**

They have hardly been driven. They left voluntarily...

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
It's about cultural friction, the average citizen is not racist because of concerns over the strains that immigration puts on local services.

Except of course that "strain" has been shown to be simply not true and the concern is just the result of the telegraph and mail scaremongering. I can show you a study if you wish, but I'm not going to waste my time finding it if you are just going to claim that all studies are false again.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:
Net flow of migration is irrelevent. If 20 million immigrants move in, and 20 million British people immigrate, do you think that would make this island more or less British?

You should try at least reading the evidence before disdaining it. If you actually check the figures, you'll note net flow, and general immigration are both down.

In other more simple speech. LESS. PEOPLE. COME. HERE. FACT.

Here's a chart to further aid your comprehension.

If you're going to argue, at least look at the evidence.

I suppose the next logical step for the 'deny at all costs' would be to say that the figures only account for legal immigration. But that's a flawed comparison, as there would be no way of knowing if illegal immigration increases or decreases. Because its illegal and thus unrecorded.

**purplefood**

But Ketara there must be millions of immigrintz because we are less british!

**dæl**

Ketara wrote:
If you're going to argue, at least look at the evidence.

He doesn't need to look at evidence.

Anyone in politics knows that you can get "evidence" for whatever policy you want to implement. It's simply a ruse to present liberalism as being objectively and undeniably true.

**BryllCream**

Ketara wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
Net flow of migration is irrelevent. If 20 million immigrants move in, and 20 million British people immigrate, do you think that would make this island more or less British?

You should try at least reading the evidence before disdaining it. If you actually check the figures, you'll note net flow, and general immigration are both down.

In other more simple speech. LESS. PEOPLE. COME. HERE. FACT.

Here's a chart to further aid your comprehension.

If you're going to argue, at least look at the evidence.

I suppose the next logical step for the 'deny at all costs' would be to say that the figures only account for legal immigration. But that's a flawed comparison, as there would be no way of knowing if illegal immigration increases or decreases. Because its illegal and thus unrecorded.

Spamming arguments with "CHECK THE EVIDENCE LOL EVIDENCE FACTS EVIDENCE IRREFUTABLE PROOF". The existance of evidence does prove ones facts, especially if you look at the arguments against immigration.

Migration has gone down certainly. It is still very high, and will likely increase as Romania+Bulgaria join. It is still causing a huge impact on our towns and cities, for all of the reasons stated above.

And feel free to remind me how the existance of that graph helps ease the nausia that millions of people feel at feeling like second class citizens in their own country.

dæl wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
It's about cultural friction, the average citizen is not racist because of concerns over the strains that immigration puts on local services.

Except of course that "strain" has been shown to be simply not true and the concern is just the result of the telegraph and mail scaremongering. I can show you a study if you wish, but I'm not going to waste my time finding it if you are just going to claim that all studies are false again.

I don't know if there is a strain or not. I don't really care, as said above I was saying that the "strain" was irrilivent.

**Ketara**

Spamming arguments with "CHECK THE EVIDENCE LOL EVIDENCE FACTS EVIDENCE IRREFUTABLE PROOF".

Wait. Did you just tell me off for 'spamming arguments' with evidence?

The existance of evidence does prove ones facts, especially if you look at the arguments against immigration.

You can argue as much as you like. It does absolutely nothing to affect the facts. I.e.

Fact: Immigration to this country is going down.
Fact. This is happening under David Cameron.

Whether or not you feel there are too many people of foreign birth already in the UK is something completely separate. Immigration from abroad to this country IS going down.

**BryllCream**

Ketara wrote:
Spamming arguments with "CHECK THE EVIDENCE LOL EVIDENCE FACTS EVIDENCE IRREFUTABLE PROOF".

Wait. Did you just tell me off for 'spamming arguments' with evidence?

The existance of evidence does prove ones facts, especially if you look at the arguments against immigration.

You can argue as much as you like. It does absolutely nothing to affect the facts. I.e.

Fact: Immigration to this country is going down.
Fact. This is happening under David Cameron.

Whether or not you feel there are too many people of foreign birth already in the UK is something completely separate. Immigration from abroad to this country IS going down.

**purplefood**

How is the workplace divided?
It's not like they've hired cows or something?
They aren't so different that they have stopped being people...

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:

Right...okay.

This is a thread about a political party doing well in the polls. I am explaining some of the issues behind this, to which your retort is a graph. Does that make me feel any safer? Does it make my workplace any less divided?

You tell me. I addressed my initial post in here to several past statements by various people, that immigration is currently unaffected under Cameron. You then chose to respond in a contradictory manner to my assertion to the opposite.

What that has to do with your workplace is entirely within your own mind.

I mean let's face it, if you just point blank didn't read my post instead of just ignoring the evidence....well, that's pretty silly of you really.

**BryllCream**

purplefood wrote:How is the workplace divided?
It's not like they've hired cows or something?
They aren't so different that they have stopped being people...

Well let's see:

*Sexual harassment of white workers by Pakistani management
*Constant racism amongst various immigrants towards each other
*More or less universal hatred of immigrants by English workers
*Day to day problems caused by a significant amount of the workforce speaking little to no English

I could go on.

purplefood wrote:How is the workplace divided?
It's not like they've hired cows or something?
They aren't so different that they have stopped being people...

Ketara wrote:
You tell me. I addressed my initial post in here to several past statements by various people, that immigration is currently unaffected under Cameron. You then chose to respond in a contradictory sense to my assertion to the opposite.

What that has to do with your workplace is entirely within your own mind.

I mean let's face it, if you just point blank didn't read my post instead of just ignoring the evidence....well, that's pretty silly of you really.

I was correcting the notion of net migration being important when it's not. Actual immigration/emigration is what causes social tensions.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:

I was correcting the notion of net migration being important when it's not. Actual immigration/emigration is what causes social tensions.

And net migration is made up of.....wait for it..........*drum roll*.......Emigration and immigration figures! Which I then provided as part of my graph in more detail when it turned out you hadn't read the links!

Seriously mate, you should give this up already. You just posted a daft contradiction without reading the evidence I put up. Stop trying to make it out to be anything else.

**BryllCream**

I'm not going to reply to that. You and I are clearly operating on different narratives.

**purplefood**

He does kinda have a point.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:
I'm not going to reply to that. You and I are clearly operating on different narratives.

Evidently. Which makes one wonder why on earth you bothered responding to my post in the first place.

....other than if you just skim-read it, assumed I was disagreeing with you in general, and jumped straight to keyboard without actually thinking about it.

**BryllCream**

That immigration is not an issue because it's gone down a bit? Somehow the decrease in the increase of an issue, means that the issue has gone away? No, I don't see that. Sorry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
BryllCream wrote:
I'm not going to reply to that. You and I are clearly operating on different narratives.

Evidently. Which makes one wonder why on earth you bothered responding to my post in the first place.

....other than if you just skim-read it, assumed I was disagreeing with you in general, and jumped straight to keyboard without actually thinking about it.

Or as I said above, I was responding to you saying that net migration was important, and your response was a graph showing immigration and emigration. You agreed with me.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:
That immigration is not an issue because it's gone down a bit? Somehow the decrease in the increase of an issue, means that the issue has gone away? No, I don't see that. Sorry.

But you'll note I never said those things. What I said was:

To all these people saying immigration is still too high, and the Conservatives have done nothing to tackle it, you may want to look into that a bit further. I'm not fond of Cameron's lot, but if there's one achievement they can boast of, its bringing down the net flow of migration. Here's the figures for the last few years, they show a fairly steady trend of general decline.

You added all that stuff about it 'not being an issue any more' yourself.

Give it up mate.

**BryllCream**

I have already said that I'd stop arguing with you because all you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing - you keep insisting that I concede or give up, knowing full well that I won't and simply reply again, when we have no disagreement to begin with.

So I say again, I'm done with you. Please do not reply again or I will block you, which I am not particularly keen to do.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:
I have already said that I'd stop arguing with you because all you're doing is arguing for the sake of arguing - you keep insisting that I concede or give up, knowing full well that I won't and simply reply again, when we have no disagreement to begin with.

I agree. We had no disagreement. Beyond you telling me facts are irrelevant, etc.

Which really begs the question as to why you bothered disagreeing in the first place.

....unless you just skim read my post.

**BryllCream**

I don't think I did disagree with you. I disagreed with a socially-defined notion that you mentioned, not an argument that you made.

**Ketara**

BryllCream wrote:

Net flow of migration is irrelevent.

You gave this as a response to:

To all these people saying immigration is still too high, and the Conservatives have done nothing to tackle it, you may want to look into that a bit further. I'm not fond of Cameron's lot, but if there's one achievement they can boast of, its bringing down the net flow of migration.

Your response would lead the average reader to believe, that you had just claimed that net migration figures were irrelevant to the reduction of immigration to this country. Which is patently absurd.

If that's not what you intended to say, then you may wish to phrase your contradictions better.

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:

*Sexual harassment of white workers by Pakistani management
*Constant racism amongst various immigrants towards each other
*More or less universal hatred of immigrants by English workers

All of these things, depending on how they are manifested, are illegal. I would suggest speaking to the police, which will be far more effective than throwing away a vote on a far right party without a single realistic policy in it's manifesto.

**purplefood**

Or at least your HR department...

**BryllCream**

dæl wrote:
BryllCream wrote:

*Sexual harassment of white workers by Pakistani management
*Constant racism amongst various immigrants towards each other
*More or less universal hatred of immigrants by English workers

All of these things, depending on how they are manifested, are illegal. I would suggest speaking to the police, which will be far more effective than throwing away a vote on a far right party without a single realistic policy in it's manifesto.

Right, and if I have a problem with drugs in my neighbourhood I should tell the police

. These are all the result of the interactions of culture, not individual acts of malice (which do occasionally happen, but are dealt with).

**dæl**

BryllCream wrote:
Right, and if I have a problem with drugs in my neighbourhood I should tell the police . These are all the result of the interactions of culture, not individual acts of malice (which do occasionally happen, but are dealt with).

Well yeah, if it is a problem then you should inform the police. That's what they exist for. Unchallenged unacceptable behaviour doesn't change.

**Eetion**

About the only policy I agree with is a referendum on the EU and our continued involvement with it.
Its been decades since we signed up to the common market, urope now has its own parliament, and currency.

A referendum needs to be held as weve had next to no say on how 'deep' the UK wants to integrate with this.

Withdraw/accept the Euro and integrate/fine aw we are.

Its about time a referendum was held on the issue, and not just some half baked round of voting for an MEP.