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Kangodo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
T5, potentially 2+/3++, and the obligatory S7 AP1 Warscythe, not exactly a weak dumpling there.

That's why I didn't call him weak.
It's actually a right amount of power that I expect from a model that is 150 points.

You said "less of a joke", implying it's still some level of joke, which it is not.

1. Around 50% chance.

Assuming Ld10, increasing 63% at Ld9 and ~75% at Ld8

2. Only D3 attacks.

*only*, so usually as many or almost as many as it would normally get, and it doesn't get to strike at the enemy

3. This is how Necrons melee, they hardly have anything else.

Wraiths, scarabs, hilariously cheap units of MC's, C'tan shards, etc?

It's what the entire race is all about: Using technology.

No other Necron unit functions anything like MSS, they all either have lots of attacks or very hard hitting attacks, nothing relies on turning an enemy against itself.

A) Shoot the Lord first.

Hidden in a unit? Not easy.

B) Don't accept the challenge.

In which case the character still doesn't get to do anything.

C) Charge something else.

Not always an option/may be critical to the game's outcome, and it's not like Necrons never initiate charges themselves. One of the Necron armies I routinely face is built around using Lords with scythes and MSS with warrior blobs as delivery systems.

The problem with MSS is a Necron-problem in general.
To make your entire unit less sucky in melee you need to: Take a (named) Overlord to open up for Royal Court > Take a Lord > Use the mandatory upgrades for the Lord > Attach MSS to the Lord.
And they will probably still lose in melee, despite all the points you've put in them.

Have you ever seen what 5 terminators can do against 2x20 Necron Warriors if you don't attach Lords?
I forgot to add them once and it was brutal.

5 terminators in combat against 40 warriors at once? On average (assuming neither side charged) the Warriors will kill 2 terminators before they can strike, the terminators will strike back and kill an average of...2-3 Warriors. The Warriors will likely destroy the terminators by the 3rd round of combat, and even if the Necrons break the Terminators cannot run them down.

That said, they're a dedicated CC unit, such results should be expected. Have you seen what 2x20 warriors do to 5 terminators? They evaporate them in one round of shooting. If you threw equivalent points of Wraiths into a Warrior unit they'd actually perform better than the Terminators on average.

You don't need a ridiculous piece of wargear to mitigate warriors CC shortcomings which largely amount to "we're just not amazing at it" as opposed to say, IG or tau who genuinely suck at it. They're still S4 WS4 and at least have a 4+ armor save.

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

Before you start throwing around terms like "butthurt" you should probably understand not every situation is ideal. If I could have a sergeant with a chainsword and bolt pistol fight the MSS Lord while my beatstick character throttles the rest of the Necron squad, I would. You just don't always have the opportunity to in a game with this many variables.

 Brother SRM wrote:

tgf wrote:
Who said MSS isn't good, its awesome. Seems like there is a whole lot of MSS butt hurt in this thread. I got an idea, don't be stupid, have sarge with his 2 CCW attacks take the challenge while your blender character runs up the score in CC so you can break and run down. MSS is hardly broke, its just really really good against people who can't think outside the box, and are used to scripted play. It breaks the monotony.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It might be a little on the cheap side, but hey so is psybolt ammo, and runes of warding, every army gets a little gift in their wargear.

Before you start throwing around terms like "butthurt" you should probably understand not every situation is ideal. If I could have a sergeant with a chainsword and bolt pistol fight the MSS Lord while my beatstick character throttles the rest of the Necron squad, I would. You just don't always have the opportunity to in a game with this many variables.

True occasionally a necron player will out play you, sometimes you will out play him. The typical MSS complaint I see on the forums is, "oh noes, my swarm lord is not an auto-win only a 50/50 prop" CHEESE!!!

Beyond that someone else said, its not fun losing control of your character, at least you got to roll 3 dice and have a 50/50 shot. I guess in response I say it is fun removing your model without any dice being rolled at all. The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character. So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints. People don't like the change in the natural order.

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

tgf wrote:
So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.
You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army. I guess if you played IG, you'd say that everyone who complained about Vendettas being underpriced were "butt hurt" too?

MSS would be acceptable, if using it meant that Lord could not make any attacks or if the model would still make his normal attacks. Currently MSS is even worse piece of game design than Psychotrope grenades are, and that is quite achievement.

I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....

....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

And to answer the OP. Necrons are the benchmark army for MANY aspects of the game when it comes to point for value comparisons.

Their army, unlike the counters suggested here, don't need to worry about changing to contend other styles of play. Their lists is simply SO good at doing everything that the meta of other lists is nearly irrelevant.

I will admit that I don't include Tau on this as they are still new. But prior to that, two equally skilled players playing equal levels of competitiveness....Necrons are better than most if not all other armies.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.

Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....

....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

Might have something to do with the long history of necrons dying to anything that gets into contact with them, especially MC. Its nice to have something that will make your opponent think twice before throwing a carnifex/demon prince/ Mephiston at a block of warriors for once.
I personally never had much luck with MSS. It doesn't actually work that well against LD10 in my experience; my opponent usually passes it.

Luide wrote:
This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

Wraiths are extremely awesome in CC.
But one unit doesn't stop the army from being generally poor in CC.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.

Wooow, that escalated quickly.
Are we attacking people because they disagree?

MSS without context is indeed overpowered.
MSS would be overpowered for almost every other army, but for Necrons it's a necessity to stop them from being too easily wiped out in CC.

'Crons are the kind of army where I would encourage using cheese against (and a degree of list building).

Recommend:
-Heldrakes

-AA if there is to be many fliers (or just use cheap cannon fodder for most of your army, and ignore).

-Plasmaguns/Meltaguns/Lascannons

-Things like Darnath Lysander Terminator deathstar with a Chaplain.

 Selym wrote:
'Crons are the kind of army where I would encourage using cheese against (and a degree of list building).

Recommend:
-Heldrakes

-AA if there is to be many fliers (or just use cheap cannon fodder for most of your army, and ignore).

-Plasmaguns/Meltaguns/Lascannons

-Things like Darnath Lysander Terminator deathstar with a Chaplain.

- Can't say I'm afraid of them. Don't have many CSM players here :/

- I am afraid of those. AA is necessary against necrons.

- Who aren't afraid of those? (besides hoards)

- Yeah, that's pretty nasty.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

It is sure that if I field Abadon the Despoiler (at 265pts if I remember correctly) against your below 200pts overlord, I want to see Abbadon utterly destroyed at 90% of the time... or else it wouldn't be fair

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.

Actually, that Overlord is only 160 points. Remember that we're talking baseline Overlord without MSS, just Scythe, Weave and Phase shifter. (I even didn't take Ever-living into account at all when checking who wins the fight.)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?

Depends on your definitions, but if we start from loyalist Marines who could even have a shot at that Lord (without MSS) with no extra wargear, TH/SS SM Captain is 170 points base. Artificer version with PF and SS is 155 points. Wolf Lords start from around same and go easily up to 200+ points purely from CC related gear. GK Brother-Captain starts from 150 points, but will only have 4++.

So cost is around same. And while Marines do have advantage of higher WS, remember that Overlord strikes first in all of those cases.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I admit that Runes of Warding is a terrible piece of wargear and I play Eldar....
....why can't a Necron player be objective enough to understand that MSS is just as bad if not worse?

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.
Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Reason for that is unknown: most GK players in 5e (me included) were more than willing to admit that many portions of C:GK were horribly unbalanced in 5e. (5 points for Fortitude in 5e was complete joke, for example.) Why most Necron players in 6e are unwilling to do same, I don't know.




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 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

No they're not. You're forgetting two very large things: 1) Wraiths have 2 wounds each. 2) Wraiths are Jump Infantry. (Also, Wraiths don't have WBB.)

So Thunderwolves, that cost 80 ppm, are S5 T5 3++, 4A rending and Cavalry. Wraiths cost 35 ppm, are S6 T4, 3++ and 3 attacks.
70 points of Wraiths have 50% more attacks, double wounds, wound MEQ at 2+ instead of 3+ and have T4 instead of T5 compared to 80 point TWC Do you still think TWC have "edge"?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

Pay for whatever it's carrying? Such as a unit of warriors which besides being scoring can easily glance AV14 to death. So yeah...It's like 265 points for a great troop unit AND and an AV11 flyer. Plus being a dedicated transport means that you can have six of them. SIX ! They're not eating up a Heavy Support slot or a Fast Attack slot like everyone elses' flyers.

It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...

And a free 5+ save (4+ if you move flat out), which is nicer still.

Dude I play Space Wolves. I'd love to have a Night Scythe - or any flyer actually. Just one. Please. How many flyers can Necrons put in their list?

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.
Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Because Necrons are actually not the "bring whatever you want and ignore tactics while still beating everyone into the ground"-army that some people act like it is.

Maybe you can have a decent discussions when these discussions don't start with "Nerf all Necron-units because I lost to them!"

And we should really stop comparing unit to unit.
Or should we mention that Necrons have their cheapest transport at 100 while BA can get transport for 15?
See? We need context.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Are you kidding? Are we talking about the same army that currently has the, by far, most overpowered model in the entire game in its codex? You can have our Doomscythes anyday if we get your Vendettas please. Helldrakes? A lot of stuff Tau can pack? Havocs? Aegis Defense LIne? Sigh.

For the record, any army can have an ADL. You don't have to be imperial.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'm sorry, but saying that MSS aren't very strong or even "fluff" or even a "waste of points" kinda makes you look...funny...I mean, 50% chance to automatically win a challenge at 15 pts alone would be awesome, but even w/o challenges, getting people to hit themselves is damn good especially with Force weapons etc.

Agreed. And by way of comparison, some people will pay 10 points for a piece of wargear that just lets them hit on a 3+ in CC. I'd totally pay for MSS if it means, 50% or greater chance of automatically winning a challenge while taking no damage in return AND getting 2 good attacks on the enemy squad to boot!

Kangodo wrote:

Luide wrote:
This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

And what fights will it surely win without MSS against targets that are also almost 200 points?
A +/- 200pnt Over Lord SHOULD beat a 50pnt Sergeant with power fist.

First, it is 160 points. Which is quite far from 200 points.

Second, Lord will win fight against 50 point sergeant with Power first trivially. Lord only needs Warscythe (10 points) to do it. Lord strikes first, sergeant doesn't get save and Lord is T5, he is not ID'd by S8 PF. So even 100 point Lord will easily beat that sergeant.
MSS just makes it basically impossible for anyone to even have a chance at beating the Lord, even if they spent 250+ points against the 175 points of the Lord with MSS.

Third. Why should 160 point Necron Overlord always win against 150-200 point dedicated CC-characters? This seems to be the starting point for all Necron players: "I've spent 160 points for my Lord, therefore he should always win all CC's with other characters that have spent 150-200 points".
I don't understand that viewpoint at all. Its like saying "I've spent 1500 points for my Necron army, therefore it should surely win against any other army that has spent 1500-2000 points".

Realistic expectatation should be that CC kitted Overlord should have around 50% chance of winning fight against similarly priced CC kitted characters. With MSS, the chance of winning is at least 75%, often more. And this is even against 250+ point characters.

Kangodo wrote:
Wraiths are extremely awesome in CC.
But one unit doesn't stop the army from being generally poor in CC

Actually, it does. Because of Wraiths, Necrons as army are not poor in CC.
Necrons as a army are actually pretty good in CC: They have arguably best CC unit in the game and they also have ultimate counter against all hard hitting MC's and characters.

Sure, Necron rank and file are bad at CC. But so are Tactical Marines. And because of RP, Immortals might be better in CC than tacticals are.

If you want to see army that is actually bad in CC, go look at Tau. But for some reason, there is neither no Wraith equivalent nor MSS equivalent in Tau army, even though by your arguments there absolutely should be.

Luide wrote:


Realistic expectatation should be that CC kitted Overlord should have around 50% chance of winning fight against similarly priced CC kitted characters. With MSS, the chance of winning is at least 75%, often more. And this is even against 250+ point characters.

You keep throwing a lot of numbers around, but I fail to see any valid argument backing those up. Let's start with this one then:

a) Where do you get the 50% from?

b) Where do you get the "at least" 75% win chance from?

c) What 250+ point characters?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Also, its a dedicated transport, so you have to pay for whatever its carrying. So its more like 265 points at least, and that's for a Av11 vehicle.

Pay for whatever it's carrying? Such as a unit of warriors which besides being scoring can easily glance AV14 to death. So yeah...It's like 265 points for a great troop unit AND and an AV11 flyer. Plus being a dedicated transport means that you can have six of them. SIX ! They're not eating up a Heavy Support slot or a Fast Attack slot like everyone elses' flyers.

It does have the hard to hit bonus, which is nice...

And a free 5+ save (4+ if you move flat out), which is nicer still.

Dude I play Space Wolves. I'd love to have a Night Scythe - or any flyer actually. Just one. Please. How many flyers can Necrons put in their list?

Flyers don't get the 5+ save when they move...


They can add as many flyers as they have points for...which is a poor idea, because then you are blowing all your points on something that might not show up, and can be shot down if your opponent is smart enough to carry AA.

Also, you do realize that scythes are expensive money wise? They are like, 30 bucks each.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

For a 200 point model, he better win most CC engagements.
Out of curiosity, how much is your average CC specialist?

A Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf mount build (there are more than one) usually clocks in at around 250 points. Logan Grimnar is 275 points. Against a 200 point Necron Lord with MSS, the Necron wins more than 50% of the time.

Luide wrote:
First, it is 160 points. Which is quite far from 200 points.

An Overlord with WS, 2+/3++ and a Resurrection Orb is almost 200 points.
If you don't take the Res Orb, you are doing it wrong.
Lords are added to not pack your stuff and go home against 2+-saves, to stop IC from annihilating you and to bring an Orb to the party.
They are doing that job perfectly fine.

Actually, it does. Because of Wraiths, Necrons as army are not poor in CC.

So Wraiths in your deployment are stopping my warriors from being swept away.. how exactly?

If you want to see army that is actually bad in CC, go look at Tau. But for some reason, there is neither no Wraith equivalent nor MSS equivalent in Tau army, even though by your arguments there absolutely should be.

Tau make up for that by having so much more 24"+ firepower and jet-packs.
Necrons actually want the opponent to be within 12-24", that is dangerously close to CC, so they need something to scare away random models.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

The Wraith does not have RP. Once you kill it (which is easy to do with S8), it stays dead.

Luide wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Dand218 wrote:

Someone has already mentioned Wraiths but why they are so good is because they are so damn cheap (35pts per model gets you a S6, T4, rending beast that has a 3+ invul and 4 attacks on a charge. Without adding the pistol)

For comparision, Space Wolves can take Thunderwolf Cavalry at 50 points per model. That buys you S5, T5 rending cavalry with 2 wounds a 3+ armor save and 4 attacks. For thirty points more, you can have a storm shield to make your 3+ save invulnerable. The difference? Besides the TWC costing 80 points and the wraith only 35, the TWC moves faster (cavalry) and has 2 wounds. The Wraith has 'We'll be back' and a lower initiative (I think). I'd say they're priced about the same. In fact, maybe the TWC has a small edge.

No they're not. You're forgetting two very large things: 1) Wraiths have 2 wounds each. 2) Wraiths are Jump Infantry. (Also, Wraiths don't have WBB.)

So Thunderwolves, that cost 80 ppm, are S5 T5 3++, 4A rending and Cavalry. Wraiths cost 35 ppm, are S6 T4, 3++ and 3 attacks.
70 points of Wraiths have 50% more attacks, double wounds, wound MEQ at 2+ instead of 3+ and have T4 instead of T5 compared to 80 point TWC Do you still think TWC have "edge"?

I stand corrected. I didn't know Wraiths had 2 wounds. And move just as fast as cavalry? AND are immune to JotWW? All that for 35 points.

Damn. That's some smelly cheese right there.

I think it's fair to say that MSS is pretty significantly undercosted.

However, I think it's threat is a little overblown. You'll rarely see more than 1-2 models in an army with MSS. I only have it on my Destroyer Lord generally.


EDIT:

I stand corrected. I didn't know Wraiths had 2 wounds. And move just as fast as cavalry? AND are immune to JotWW? All that for 35 points.

Damn. That's some smelly cheese right there.

Wraiths are not immune to JOTWW.

In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire. Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

 Sasori wrote:
I think it's fair to say that MSS is pretty significantly undercosted.

However, I think it's threat is a little overblown. You'll rarely see more than 1-2 models in an army with MSS. I only have it on my Destroyer Lord generally.

Oh yeah, it's undercosted. When I first saw it, I was like, "really, only 15 points? That's a bit cheap."

However, the sheer calls of cheese is a bit unwarranted.

Kangodo wrote:

For some reason, it seems that many Necron players have huge issues about viewing their army objectively.Instead, they often attack anyone brings up issues like MSS, Annihilation Barges, Night Scythes or Wraiths being undercosted into light.

Maybe you can have a decent discussions when these discussions don't start with "Nerf all Necron-units because I lost to them!"

Thank you for proving my point. I guess you truly are the archetypical Necron player.

Kangodo wrote:
And we should really stop comparing unit to unit.

Why? Because it is best way to actually compare units and see which are underpriced and which are overpriced?

In 90% of cases, unit to unit comparisons work just fine. They only truly break when there are very heavy synergies one needs to take into account, like in Codex Tau.
But there is absolutely no problems comparing Wraiths to TWC or comparing GH to Tactical marines. In both cases, it is trivial to see how badly one is underpriced and how no-one could honestly claim anything else.

Kangodo wrote:
Or should we mention that Necrons have their cheapest transport at 100 while BA can get transport for 15?

That is because you're deliberately not taking into account that the "15 point transport" (actually 50 point transport with discount) also includes loss of jump packs, which are valued at 3 ppm, increasing its cost by 15-30 points.
Also, you're trying to misrepresent the issue here, the issue was never about "X costs 100 points and Y costs 15 points". It is about what one gets for those points.
For example, in comparison like that, if one had honest intentions about comparing transports, person would also have made note that one those transports is a Flier with (effectively) TL S7 AP- Heavy 6 weapon and other one is fast Rhino with storm bolter.
In other word, reason for the large difference in points is easily explainable by large difference in capabilities.

Luide wrote:

tgf wrote:
The fact that MSS give an LD 10 guy a 50/50 prop is better odds than a non-mss necron has against just about any dedicated CC character.

This is completely wrong. In fact, Necron Overlord, with T5, 2+/3++ and S7 AP2 Warscythe Striking at I2 and 2+/3++ will win most fights against (non-SC) dedicated CC characters.
With MSS, it's foregone conclusion that he will win all of those matches.

Also, anyone claiming that Necrons (as army) are poor in CC is lying. Point per point, Wraiths are currently one of the best CC units in the game. They might even be [b]the[b] best CC unit, considering that they are as tough as TH/SS terminators and are both cheaper and faster.

tgf wrote:
So in general, I think butt hurt is the proper way to describe most (not all) MSS complaints.

No it is not. You just don't have moral integrity required to admit that MSS is both poor piece of game design, and far too cheap for what it does.
You're saying that people are "butt hurt" as a way of deflecting all valid criticism away from you and your chosen army. I guess if you played IG, you'd say that everyone who complained about Vendettas being underpriced were "butt hurt" too?

MSS would be acceptable, if using it meant that Lord could not make any attacks or if the model would still make his normal attacks. Currently MSS is even worse piece of game design than Psychotrope grenades are, and that is quite achievement.

Like I said complete butt hurt, a 50/50 prop = always win. A 200+ point lord 3A at WS4 does not make a CC giant and he is hella expensive. I already said it is probably a bit cheap but remember it was designed in 7th before the retardation of close combat pile ins and it was much harder to get the desired pairing in CC every time. Comparing to psychotrope is laughable shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the game. I play against vendetta's and psychotrokes and all the other crap people cry about. If you are smart you can generally deal with it, and if its too much for you maybe you should try hero-clix, or checkers.

Luide wrote:
Thank you for proving my point. I guess you truly are the archetypical Necron player.

What point?

Why? Because it is best way to actually compare units and see which are underpriced and which are overpriced?

Because armies aren't homogenized.
Stuff that is overpriced for codex X can be underpriced in codex Y.
Like I said: Necrons really need something like MSS.
Space Marines would be awfully overpowered with MSS.

But there is absolutely no problems comparing Wraiths to TWC or comparing GH to Tactical marines. In both cases, it is trivial to see how badly one is underpriced and how no-one could honestly claim anything else.

Are TWC FA-units that can only be taken in groups of 6 in a codex that is mainly short-ranged shooty?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The night scythes special rule is there so it can take soldiers without having to hover. Otherwise, it will be useless.

In the same way that a Storm Raven is useless? It has to hover to disembark troops.

Nightscythe can't hover, it has the Supersonic rule. Stormravens can. Stormravens can also disembark troops while zooming, albeit being less safe.

So without the 'invasion beams' rule, it would b a useless transport

 Sasori wrote:
In addition, A Wraith is as hard to kill as 2 marines with Volume of fire.

So are TH/SS terminators, which are considered "the standard" for being hard to kill. Remember also that with plasma, Wraith is twice as hard to kill as TH/SS terminator. On average, about same though.

 Sasori wrote:
Wraiths are undercosted, but I honestly don't believe significantly so.

Compare them to units that are similarly tough, like TH/SS and TWC. And then take into account how much cheaper Wraiths are and how much would marine player be willing to pay for Jump Pack equipped TH/SS termies.
Personally, I'd say something they're undercosted by around 7-10 ppm. Would still be competitive at that point level, but not auto-take they're now.

If MSS cost 50 points people would still buy it. It's an auto-include because it's the single best piece of HQ wargear in the game for neutralizing other commanders. Now that we have this idiotic challenge mechanic the problem is exacerbated. If we didn't have to challenge and weren't actively penalized for not accepting, it would be an appropriately costed piece of wargear.