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Page 66 – Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to
“[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However,
unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit
from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of
the first paragraph.

Source:
https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180060a_WARHAMMER_RULEBOOK_v1.8_APRIL13.pdf


Doesn't say anything about the Frostheart's Blizzard Aura..
If you have 2 of them on a unit, is it -2S (to a min of 1)?

Exact quote:
"Any enemy unit in base contact with a Frostheart Phoenix has the ASL special rule and suffers a -1 to its Strength (to min of 1)."

I wiuld expect so - more akin to hexes than usr, and hexes stack.

It's a special rule as it's listed under the model's...special rules. I wouldn't think they stack.

Yes, but it isn't giving a special rule to the other units - it is applying two debuffs. You can apply multiple versions of -1S as this is a stat change not a USR. A single phoenix could not have multiple copies of the rule, so would not be able to give -2S, but each phoenix in b2b should debuff.

Given that other special effects in 8th edition are pretty clear, I think they do stack.

Aura of Darkmajesty says units within range of 1 or more vampire.
The Blasphemous Tome upgrade to the Mortis engine says wizards within 12" of 1 or more tomes gets +2 to cast from lore of vampire.
Units within range of the Mortis Engine get +1 to regen saves, or 6+ if you have none.

The regen boost doesn't say 1 or more, so if you're in range of 2 engines, you'd Add +2 to your regeneration save, or gain a 5+ regeneration if you had none.

Empire rare wagons all list the bonuses (+1 to hit or 6+ ward) as in range of 1 or more.

No.

Reading it closely, I'd say I'm fairly confident I'm right.

The exact wording is as follows: "Any unit in base contact with a Frostheart Pheonix has..."

The key word there is the "a". It implies that if a unit is in base contact with any Frostheart Pheonix, be there five or only a single one, the unit is at -1 Strength and ASL. If the "a" was replaced with "the", then I would agree that it would stack, but, based on the wording in the book, I am almost certain they won't stack.

 The Shadow wrote:

The exact wording is as follows: "Any unit in base contact with a Frostheart Pheonix has..."

The key word there is the "a". It implies that if a unit is in base contact with any Frostheart Pheonix, be there five or only a single one, the unit is at -1 Strength and ASL. If the "a" was replaced with "the", then I would agree that it would stack, but, based on the wording in the book, I am almost certain they won't stack.

Good catch. It is singular. Being in range of 50 Frostheart Phoenixes or 1 Frostheart Phoenix is still satisfied with "a."

I say they don't stack.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

The exact wording is as follows: "Any unit in base contact with a Frostheart Pheonix has..."

The key word there is the "a". It implies that if a unit is in base contact with any Frostheart Pheonix, be there five or only a single one, the unit is at -1 Strength and ASL. If the "a" was replaced with "the", then I would agree that it would stack, but, based on the wording in the book, I am almost certain they won't stack.

Good catch. It is singular. Being in range of 50 Frostheart Phoenixes or 1 Frostheart Phoenix is still satisfied with "a."

I say they don't stack.

I'm not sold on that. All other army books have specified "1 or More" if they don't stack.
It isn't satisfied with "a" when you have to add a plural to another part of the rule.
Being in Base Contact of 2 Frost Fire Phoenixes isn't being in Base Contact of "a phoenix". If you limit the effect to singular, then you can likewise claim that it doesn't nothing at all if you're in range of plural phoenixes.
I think it is written as "A Phoenix" because that's what you're buying, it's always a unit of 1.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

The exact wording is as follows: "Any unit in base contact with a Frostheart Pheonix has..."

The key word there is the "a". It implies that if a unit is in base contact with any Frostheart Pheonix, be there five or only a single one, the unit is at -1 Strength and ASL. If the "a" was replaced with "the", then I would agree that it would stack, but, based on the wording in the book, I am almost certain they won't stack.

Good catch. It is singular. Being in range of 50 Frostheart Phoenixes or 1 Frostheart Phoenix is still satisfied with "a."

I say they don't stack.

Being in Base Contact of 2 Frost Fire Phoenixes isn't being in Base Contact of "a phoenix".

Well, technically, yes it is. There is a Pheonix there, there just so happens to be another one. Like Duke said, "a" could signify a single object, or fifty objects.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Being in Base Contact of 2 Frost Fire Phoenixes isn't being in Base Contact of "a phoenix".

Sure it is. It would be very arduous to write the rules to say something like, if you're in contact with a phoenix and a fence. Or a phoenix and a drunk goblin. Or a phoenix and 2 water buffaloes. Being in contact with a phoenix is boolean. It's true or false regardless of number.

Are you wearing a sock is true if you're wearing two, one, or have them on your hands, ears, and secret st. peter. Are you wearing one sock is a different question. If you want to get nitpicky and say a can only refer to one, then that would have the side-effect of if you had multiple in contact neither would work because you're not in contact with A phoenix.

That is RAW as I see it. I'm not going to guess RAI since I was blind-sided last time I thought the DoC winds of magic was clearly not every enemy unit and they FAQed me in the face.

DukeRustfield wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Being in Base Contact of 2 Frost Fire Phoenixes isn't being in Base Contact of "a phoenix".

Sure it is. It would be very arduous to write the rules to say something like, if you're in contact with a phoenix and a fence. Or a phoenix and a drunk goblin. Or a phoenix and 2 water buffaloes. Being in contact with a phoenix is boolean. It's true or false regardless of number.

Are you wearing a sock is true if you're wearing two, one, or have them on your hands, ears, and secret st. peter. Are you wearing one sock is a different question. If you want to get nitpicky and say a can only refer to one, then that would have the side-effect of if you had multiple in contact neither would work because you're not in contact with A phoenix.

That is RAW as I see it. I'm not going to guess RAI since I was blind-sided last time I thought the DoC winds of magic was clearly not every enemy unit and they FAQed me in the face.

Of course, this won't be one they FAQ. They'll FAQ something like, Martial skill doesn't let horses fight in 2 ranks.

-Matt

A unit with a Waaagh banner in it has +1WS (40K)

A unit with 50 banners in it has +1WS, same as a unit with 1 in it.

Same thing applies here - if you are in contact with A single phoenix, or 50, you are in contact with A phoenix so have ASL and -1S

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A unit with a Waaagh banner in it has +1WS (40K)

A unit with 50 banners in it has +1WS, same as a unit with 1 in it.

Same thing applies here - if you are in contact with A single phoenix, or 50, you are in contact with A phoenix so have ASL and -1S

Nos, you should know that 40K examples are really poor examples for Fantasy rules.
Can you find another 8th edition example?
Everything else since 8th edition has said 1 or more. I find it odd that this is the singular case of that.



-Matt

There's not a ton of auras. Herald of Slaanesh has locus of Beguilement. That is an example of one that stacks IMHO. As it specifically says if you're in contact with THIS model or a model in her unit X effects take effect. If you had 2 heralds with that locus, it could be true for multiple models.

DukeRustfield wrote:
There's not a ton of auras. Herald of Slaanesh has locus of Beguilement. That is an example of one that stacks IMHO. As it specifically says if you're in contact with THIS model or a model in her unit X effects take effect. If you had 2 heralds with that locus, it could be true for multiple models.

Vampires have 3 (Blasphamous tome on the engine, aura of dark majesty and the regen/damage from the mortis engines)
Empire has 3 (both rare choices, and the war alter bubbling the lectors spells, the rares specify 1 or more, the spell effects can't stack, only 1 ward save, can only re-roll once, and flaming attacks is the same as flaming flaming attacks)
Tomb kings have the casket which specifies 1 or more caskets give you D3 power dice.
Orcs lack any.
Ogres have 2. The Frost Aura from the thundertusk, but it wouldn't matter if it stacked or not. Yetees specific in base to base with 1 or more.
I don't think Warriors have any.

So we have 9 other examples where you could possibly have multiples of the same unit producing an effect that stacks, and every time GW didn't want it to stack, they have spelled out that you are affected if you are under 1 or more, limiting the stack.

This is the only reason why I find it odd that it is phrased the way it is, lacking the disclaimer of in contact with 1 or more.

-Matt

The ones that say one or more we know don't work. That's not an issue. Likewise the stuff that doesn't stack isn't an issue. Yes, there are auras. But ASL*5 is still ASL.

Just because they used that verbiage doesn't limit them to using it in every other circumstance. There's plenty of examples where they change their language for the same effects.

I think the "a" is a good indicator, given that it isn't explicit either way. If The Rt Honorable Mr Ward wrote the BRB, then we know he sucks at writing things clearly, which might explain why the 1 or more language isn't used.

If it comes up, I'll vote for single stack, but I won't quibble if my opponent thinks it should stack. I'll just be glad that he has taken what looks like the weaker Phoenix.

Matt - the point is that it doesnt matter that they *more* explicitly limited it in other cases, the verbiage used DOES limit it in this case.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Matt - the point is that it doesnt matter that they *more* explicitly limited it in other cases, the verbiage used DOES limit it in this case.

It isn't just other cases, it's every other case, all using the same wording in the limitation.

I'm perfectly happy with it not stacking, but I could see ~2 months down the line when all the high elf players have built the Red Phoenix GW coming around with FAQ that makes everyone want a Blue Phoenix.

-Matt

Oh GW change the rules via FAQ all the time (crumbling and overrun? As bad as the SitW vs embarked psykers flipflop in 40k!) however currently, linguistically "a" Blue phoenix drops your strength by 1, and this is true whether you are in contact with 1 or 50 of them

Another example is the Empire chariots. They don't have the one or more wording just every unit within 6" gets the benefit and the FaQ clarified that they don't stack.