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So I wonder...with the death of Specialist Games, what if GW will hand these over to Fantasy Flight in someway? FFG has their hugely successful XWing Miniatures Game which they are licensing to the Star Trek Wiz Kids game still forthcoming. Maybe we are going to see GW looking for FFG to repeat their XWing magic with Battlefleet Gothic and maybe even Blood Bowl.

I would just love to see Epic and BFG redone/revived well from anyone. (I love the Dystopian Wars double table game of fleet combat effecting 28mm ground combat.)

Those games aren't really big enough to sell on name/IP alone. If Fantasy Flight wanted to make games like that then they could already create their own generic versions.

FFG isn't a miniatures company though.

But if they would, I'd rather see FW's now dropped and dead Aeronautica Imperialis receive the X-Wing treatment. AI was okay, but too much of a mess. Now pair the setting with X-Wing and it's a match made in heaven IMHO.

YakManDoo wrote:
So I wonder...with the death of Specialist Games, what if GW will hand these over to Fantasy Flight in someway? FFG has their hugely successful XWing Miniatures Game which they are licensing to the Star Trek Wiz Kids game still forthcoming. Maybe we are going to see GW looking for FFG to repeat their XWing magic with Battlefleet Gothic and maybe even Blood Bowl.

I would just love to see Epic and BFG redone/revived well from anyone.

This has been speculated about in other threads (some think FFG dropping DUST has to do with them acquiring other games...?), however it would require complete shift of attitude from GW. They have never licensed out a miniature wargame. They did even Space Hulk (which is a boardgame) by themselves, without FFG.

So it's unlikely.

FFGs current licence prohibits them from producing miniatures for their GW ranges and I would suggest any game peices that could be substituted for Warhammer/40k models.

I have often considers crhe possibility of obtaining the licence for Epic but even if you could get that you would probably be limited in what you could produce - no new races and probably units probably without GW oversight or at all. It would limit your ability to expand the game creatively and commerciall especially when you factor in the licence payments.

As much as it would be great to see it (if GW aren't willing to do it) I just can not see it happening.

 BrookM wrote:
FFG isn't a miniatures company though.

But if they would, I'd rather see FW's now dropped and dead Aeronautica Imperialis receive the X-Wing treatment. AI was okay, but too much of a mess. Now pair the setting with X-Wing and it's a match made in heaven IMHO.

Probably a matter of personal opinion, but I find Aeronautica Imperialis to be much more interesting to play than X-wing. X-wing completely ignores the third dimesnion, and AI doesn't. However, I do like the way X-wing handles who moves first and who shoots first. I have and play both.

Back on topic. don't count on it. GW will not let anyone else make minis for their IP and if FFG can't sell the minis why bother making a miniature game? Plus, they already hav ea card game version of Blood Bowl, and board game versions of Epic.

If they do anything with the specialist games I expect GW will release them as enclosed limited release boxed games. In the same vein as dread fleet and space hulk. So once they're gone. They are gone for good. GW won't hand over their IP for making miniatures.

Plus now they are getting rid of their specialist games section it gives people a reason to buy these limited release box games. As they have got rid of their own internal competion.

Yes. I'd love the specialist games to be shipped off to FFG. I don't at all have a vested interest in this.

(/bias)

 BryllCream wrote:
Those games aren't really big enough to sell on name/IP alone.

I very much doubt that (for some of them at least).

FFG has been getting out of the miniatures game other than their wildly successful x-wing game. They brought Dust up to what it is now only to realize that's about as far as they can take it and dumped it before it could start losing them money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm mostly talking out my arse here, but I'm betting Fantasy flight is moving away from mini's for the most part on purpose.

Orktavius wrote:
FFG has been getting out of the miniatures game other than their wildly successful x-wing game. They brought Dust up to what it is now only to realize that's about as far as they can take it and dumped it before it could start losing them money.

Except that's not at all what happened.

 BryllCream wrote:
Those games aren't really big enough to sell on name/IP alone.

Many of them totally could, especially if well advertised. I'm not overly interested in 40k and Fantasy these days, but if good boxed sets were released for almost any of the specialist games I'd snap them up and I'm sure there's plenty of other people who agree with me and if there's good advertising they could even attract new customers.

I know it's impossible to say one way or another, but I do believe specialist games were so fail largely because GW did a piss poor job of advertising them. I didn't start Aeronautica Imperialis until this year because I didn't even know it existed back when it came out in 2007 or whenever it was.

What? FFG dropped DUST? When did that happen?

R.

I don't think GW share stuff like that. People hoping that the end of specialist games means they'll be offering it around are going to be disappointed. They have only licenced card games, RPGs and computer games, nothing with miniatures as in the case of many specialist games.

If they offered it to me, I'd insist on a long licence period because I can just imagine GW being the sort to take the licence back at the first opportunity if you turn a good profit claiming that you're taking custom away from them or some BS. They come across as an extraordinarily petty company when it comes to their IP and the thought of cooperating with other businesses.

For GW to hand over any specialist games to an outside publisher, licence or no, they would have to believe that the new partner's game would create interest in GW's core games and have a synergistic effect rather than serve as competition. I recall, back in my youth, that our 40k scene ground to a halt when old Epic came out. Suddenly we could play actual battles with a good ruleset - which 40k was not, even back in the early nineties. When Necromunda came out, for all its flaws, we now had a 32mm system that did not demand huge numbers of models, was set i the 40k universe, and was fun. Cue abandonment of 40k. Eventually we drifted apart and when we got back into miniatures gaming, better game systems had appeared and we did not get into GW again, but if our experience is typical, GW does not want the specialist games taken over by a competent company.

Hi guys, interesting thread. I'm actually reading your points alongside GW's last annual report.

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Would GW license Specialist Games-related stuff in general? IMHO, absolutely.

Reason - it's so profitable! UK profit about 5 mil, US and Europe around 4 mil. Licensing is 3.5 mil.

For something that needs no real manufacturing, no retail hobby centres...anyone would love this.

Sure, licensing isn't the core business, but when profits are almost a whole territory's, that's nice.

---

Would GW license anything involving other 28mm minis? IMHO, absolutely not.

Financial figures are nice to look at, but they never tell the whole story (but do tell a lot).

GW's leadership not only aggressively protects its business, it's actually very proud of it.

So much so, the Chairman has these weird terms "Fortress Wall/Moat" to describe them.

Above Kapt. Congoboy described "synergistic effect rather than competition." I agree 100%.

---

Would GW allow FFG to repeat their XWing magic with Battlefleet Gothic? Hmmm...maaaybe.

I know, this isn't a popular idea on these boards, but there is an interesting precedent.



The Horus Heresy boardgame. Yeah, it's miniatures, just not 28mm and not exactly a wargame (like Epic).

So do I see Necromunda/Mordheim becoming like this? No. Battlefleet Gothic? IMHO, possibly.

---

But there's other formats you can license this out as, like a straight-up Necromunda/Mordheim RPG.

Dark Heresy (I'm playing a mix of that and Rogue Trader and Only War) is like a pure Inquisitor RPG.

Inquisitor started out as a miniature-based Specialist Game and was licensed to FFG.

---

But there's another side of this argument. GW may license out, but would others want this license?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Those games aren't really big enough to sell on name/IP alone.

Many of them totally could, especially if well advertised. I'm not overly interested in 40k and Fantasy these days, but if good boxed sets were released for almost any of the specialist games I'd snap them up and I'm sure there's plenty of other people who agree with me and if there's good advertising they could even attract new customers.

Yeah, I'm not sure who'd want to make a product based on Necromunda/Mordheim/Gothic.

Like WHF and Space Marines were ideal for MMOs and Xbox games.

What's attractive about those licenses is that GW already had the marketing engine for it.

A license is like an asset you rent. The promotion is part of that asset's value.

In conclusion, not just about GW licensing out, but about if FFG actually wants it at all.

Hard to say. But IMHO, never say never. GW's been doing some crazy things recently.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
For GW to hand over any specialist games to an outside publisher, licence or no, they would have to believe that the new partner's game would create interest in GW's core games and have a synergistic effect rather than serve as competition. I recall, back in my youth, that our 40k scene ground to a halt when old Epic came out. Suddenly we could play actual battles with a good ruleset - which 40k was not, even back in the early nineties. When Necromunda came out, for all its flaws, we now had a 32mm system that did not demand huge numbers of models, was set i the 40k universe, and was fun. Cue abandonment of 40k. Eventually we drifted apart and when we got back into miniatures gaming, better game systems had appeared and we did not get into GW again, but if our experience is typical, GW does not want the specialist games taken over by a competent company.

Bingo. This is why GW hates it's specialist games and killed them off. It took away from what they wanted their cash cow to be. 28mm heroic models and lots of them. There are a few people who had an axe to grind with specialist games for this reason. They ran a store and specialist games took over and killed it. People would play blood bowl and not buy anything as they had their team until they got tired of blood bowl and leave. Replace bloodbowl with other miniature line as applicable. Not saying that the managers didn't bring that upon their own heads, but that's what GW saw and those managers gained some prominence which inevitably led us to where we are today.

What about Forge World instead of FFG? The Horus Heresy line shows that they have an interest in producing 28mm armies of guys, rather than *just* tanks, and their high detail level would really complement a Necromunda-style skirmish game.

GW is a miniature manufacturer, first and foremost. If they license out their core business they have nothing to exist on. Unlikely.

 Surtur wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
For GW to hand over any specialist games to an outside publisher, licence or no, they would have to believe that the new partner's game would create interest in GW's core games and have a synergistic effect rather than serve as competition. I recall, back in my youth, that our 40k scene ground to a halt when old Epic came out. Suddenly we could play actual battles with a good ruleset - which 40k was not, even back in the early nineties. When Necromunda came out, for all its flaws, we now had a 32mm system that did not demand huge numbers of models, was set i the 40k universe, and was fun. Cue abandonment of 40k. Eventually we drifted apart and when we got back into miniatures gaming, better game systems had appeared and we did not get into GW again, but if our experience is typical, GW does not want the specialist games taken over by a competent company.

Bingo. This is why GW hates it's specialist games and killed them off. It took away from what they wanted their cash cow to be. 28mm heroic models and lots of them. There are a few people who had an axe to grind with specialist games for this reason. They ran a store and specialist games took over and killed it. People would play blood bowl and not buy anything as they had their team until they got tired of blood bowl and leave. Replace bloodbowl with other miniature line as applicable. Not saying that the managers didn't bring that upon their own heads, but that's what GW saw and those managers gained some prominence which inevitably led us to where we are today.

Another option springs to mind: make 40k/WHFB as interesting as Epic. We didn't play Necromunda because it was a fantastic game - it has a ton of flaws it shares with the core 40k system - we played it because it gave us about the same enjoyment as 40k, but with less models. Epic, now....that we played because it was a good game. I painted my entire 12,000 point Epic force in less than half a year. I could barely finish my old 1500 (or so) Ork army in four...

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
Another option springs to mind: make 40k/WHFB as interesting as Epic. We didn't play Necromunda because it was a fantastic game - it has a ton of flaws it shares with the core 40k system - we played it because it gave us about the same enjoyment as 40k, but with less models. Epic, now....that we played because it was a good game. I painted my entire 12,000 point Epic force in less than half a year. I could barely finish my old 1500 (or so) Ork army in four...

Some of us did. I played it because it was a fantastic game. ;-) Nothing to do with model count.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
We didn't play Necromunda because it was a fantastic game - it has a ton of flaws it shares with the core 40k system - we played it because it gave us about the same enjoyment as 40k, but with less models.

I played Necro and Gorka because they had a fun campaign system that allowed a game to be more than just a game. What good did it do you to win a game if Necro if most of your gang coudn't collect income afterwards? There was more to it than just guys bashing each other up.

I would love to see FW do some Specilaist Games stuff. Imagine the Inquisitor models they could make at 54mm? Considering FW just cleaned their house of Epic, AI, and BFG as well; I wouldn't count on them taking over anythign for Specialist Games.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
What about Forge World instead of FFG? The Horus Heresy line shows that they have an interest in producing 28mm armies of guys, rather than *just* tanks, and their high detail level would really complement a Necromunda-style skirmish game.

They tried that with Aeronautica Imperialis.

Also, letting FW do it and make it even more exclusive for only peeps with a credit card and the patience to work with their dodgy quality casts is a bad, bad idea.

I wouldn't expect any movement on anything specialist until GW finishes their current update cycle.

It's quite clear now that the rapid codex/army book release isn't just an aberration, they're actually getting serious about updating armies in a timely fashion. However, that means they'll likely finish everything for 40k well before it's time for a new edition (I don't think even GW could try and push a 2-year edition cycle), and then GW has to think of new ways to generate revenue. Apoc and expansion like it are one option, one we've heard quite a bit of from the rumourmill, but even that's not going to fill a void of years. We've got theories of "Ally armies" with small rosters, keyed for certain factions to take as allies, and so on, but if they run out of workable ideas, then something with Specialist Games might come up again.

The Dreadfleet experience should tell GW that re-releasing an untested product at a very high price point with no pre-established interest is not a safe move, but Space Hulk's success should tell them what there needs to be; appeal to nostalgia and older game systems which are cheaper to use, but tie in with their "core" products. One of the things that attracted me to BFG was the low buy-in price; you can get a flexible, playable fleet for ~ $100 with good quality models and a solid ruleset, capitalizing on one of the key areas of warfare in the 41st millenium, and it tied into campaigns ridiculously well. Doing a proper campaign release with updated BFG rules and ships could prove successful; look how quick the very content-lite Crusade of Fire sold out. Sell a book, some ship blisters (doesn't even need to be as comprehensive as the current line, just have some modular cruisers, a capital ship and escort for the relevant factions) and, hell, throw in some new minis for the regular game which tie in to them, like naval landing troops, air caste spotters, whatever. Something new and cool, appeals to old and new players, with (hopefully) a low buy in cost compared to a new army in its entirety.

But then that's assuming GW wants to make money. Dangerous proposition.

I think Dreadfleet struggled for both the reasons you stated, Stoffer, as well as the fact that in the US WHFB simply isn't as popular (and yes, I know the US isn't the ONLY country, but it's a big and important one in terms of sales). It's a shame, because I really like the splash releases, and Dreadfleet is quite fun overall: great sculpts, a simple but enjoyable game system, etc.

With that in mind, I'd pee myself if they did a Horus Heresy one. Absolutely pee myself. Imagine if they did an splash release using the Epic system for the Dropsite Massacre... Tons of plastic 6mm sculpts. Plastic Titan Legions. I don't see that happening as the HH is sort of GWs baby, but why not do one in the 40k universe for, say, one of the Armageddons? I mean, i'd love to see GW do some 15mm plastics, but that would make some of the old stuff obsolete, which would give it the same problem dreadfleet had.

The long-rumored plastic blood bowl box would also make a great splash release, for plenty of reasons.