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You should assume every WAAC opponent will be bringing Heldrakes

As opposed to examining your meta?

Ravenwing is cheaper points wise for bikes, has a better character behind the giving bikes scoring, but has smaller unit sizes for bike squads. They also have the banner of crazy shooting (Salvo-banner) Take if you like lot's of shooting bikers.

Space marines are more expensive for bikes, but cheaper for the HQ giving them scoring (Captain on a bike) They also have bigger biker units. Take if you like lot's of shooting, but also want numbers in case of assaults.

Orks are the middle ground, except that their bikers are much, much better at assaulting than shooting. Take if you think shooting is for poncy eldar and such, and wanna get in there and krump'em!

I threw in the orks purely to discuss other options. Another such option is the fun of mounting bloodletters on chaos space marine bikes for count's-as bloodcrushers for the ultimate level of awesome. Daemonic warriors screaming out of the hell-realm on motorbikes to chop up the enemy is as cool as it gets imo


A nice touch also, taking minimal blood angels allies, you can add sanguinary priests on bikes for fearless feel no pain biker squads. Can be costly though, so if you do so, make sure you have a use for those allies. A librarian with a jump pack assault squad, makes fine allies for a biker army in my opinion, as they can assault what you don't want the enemy to assault your bikes with.

You do need a plan for Heldrakes, but that doesn't mean you can't deal with them.

Azrael + IG allies can get your opponent -2 to Reserves AND a few Vendettas.

Power Field Generators on librarians and/or techmarines could protect your black knights or command squads from Heldrakes.

Good positioning could get you plasma shots on the drakes from your survivors.

Any 2 of the above probably constitutes a plan.

Wow, ok, I have defiantly got a bunch more feedback since this morning, thanks for all the attention!

After looking closely at the information given to me I can't help but want to start out with a C:SM army and look for getting some DA allies in the future, it would the least costly for me to do and simplest tragically. As I get more 6th edition experience then I'll delve into DA and other options, thanks guys!

And for Evileyes: I thought about a jumppack army myself before going bikes and find that bikes are just a little bit better IMO, Jumppack marines can only use pistols and have a much more limited range for my liking.

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
Wow, ok, I have defiantly got a bunch more feedback since this morning, thanks for all the attention!

After looking closely at the information given to me I can't help but want to start out with a C:SM army and look for getting some DA allies in the future, it would the least costly for me to do and simplest tragically. As I get more 6th edition experience then I'll delve into DA and other options, thanks guys!

And for Evileyes: I thought about a jumppack army myself before going bikes and find that bikes are just a little bit better IMO, Jumppack marines can only use pistols and have a much more limited range for my liking.

Aye, that's true, but if you were to take BA allies for some sanguinary priest bikers, you need one minimum troops, so, assault marines most likely are the best choice for that, but that's merely an option.

Another fun thing to consider, is that helldrakes are not the most scary thing ever for you, since you are quick enough, and have enough twin linked with your bikes, to zip around the back of them, and shoot them in their AV10 butt, and glance them out of the sky

I am reading this thread and I just have to shake my head. You act like the Helltrukeys get 6 turns of shooting and the storm talons kill them upon showing up.

First the hellturkey should get 2 turns per turkey of optimal shooting as you move behind it once it makes its first pass. This is easier with the RW as you have a scout move to get closer. You should also be hiding in CC will low threat units with the RW as they have hit and run where the SM bikes do not. Without any AA defenses the RW are far superior.

Now lets look at the Stormtalon, this thing will normally take ~3 turns to actually kill a helldrake and the helldrake can even kill it if it decides to both vector striking it. Now if you were serious about killing a hellturkey you will either take FW hyperios interceptors or IG vendetallies (yes I have a word for it). Guess what codex has equal access for these two options? Honestly with some qualifiers the storm talon argument is fine but this qualifier is no FW and no necron or IG allies. under these conditions you have a valid argument.

Honestly the attack bikes being part of the squad is the biggest bike squad reason to do SM. If you want to field 50% max bikes with other power armour models then go SM as they have better options for the power armour guys. If you want nearly 100% biker and/or terminators then go DA they are better bikers.

There are of course other reasons to field the SM codex over DA codex and these are valid...heck if they were not valid you would be asking about necrons with CSM allies.

Jeez guys... my point was not which is the beat down super-this-is-the-answer-to-every-list-under-the-sun RW or SM bike list... The point was having an answer to helturkeys - weak but not overcommitting to beat helturkeys with either list. The core takeaway for me is...

1. Sammael vs SM Bike Captain at best a wash as far as cost.
2. 2 Stormtalons vs 2 RW Black Knights for anti-air... truthfully both lists are going to get burned by triple heldrake but both at least are not powerless.

There are different answers to different problems but the choice really comes down to the killing machine that Black Knights are vs having extra scoring troops. I think both are viable and both are good.

If we are going to deal with the best answer to everything, EVERY bike list is going to fall short or - in truth - NOT BE a bike list.

Bottom line, I think it comes down to preference.

DAaddict wrote:
Jeez guys... my point was not which is the beat down super-this-is-the-answer-to-every-list-under-the-sun RW or SM bike list... The point was having an answer to helturkeys - weak but not overcommitting to beat helturkeys with either list. The core takeaway for me is...

1. Sammael vs SM Bike Captain at best a wash as far as cost.
2. 2 Stormtalons vs 2 RW Black Knights for anti-air... truthfully both lists are going to get burned by triple heldrake but both at least are not powerless.

There are different answers to different problems but the choice really comes down to the killing machine that Black Knights are vs having extra scoring troops. I think both are viable and both are good.

If we are going to deal with the best answer to everything, EVERY bike list is going to fall short or - in truth - NOT BE a bike list.

Bottom line, I think it comes down to preference.

Nonsense!

Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good.

As can be seen you should crush your enemy, make them flee the game shop, take their women, and for good measure make them weep like a small child.

Honestly though it is more than just the difference in those two squads. Hit and run, banners, scout, and beacons.

As for your list you should trade the BK squad for another command squad as they are cheaper and the 2nd GL is not really that useful. You also may not need all of those MM attack bikes as they will make KP missions nearly impossible to win. YMMV. I would probably drop a few and get a Libby w/ PFG to toughen the list against hellturkeys.

If we want to win every game, we should play triple drake, 5-9 vendetta or triple Riptide lists... For now... or wait for the next broken thing that comes out. LOL

I think that having fun is still the best part of the game. While crushing my enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women is nice... I must say the most enjoyable games I have had have been against non-spam-the-unkillable lists against good players...

As far as heldrakes and vendettas, they are my most hated models... 80$ each, and it seems the idiot's answer to dominating every game. I find the whole intro to flyers a real turn off to the game as what used to be a good competitive 1850 world has turned into a 1300 point pick your holes and spam the broken part. I refused to build the automatic answer of ally guards and take 2 or 3 vendettas.

I agree that my 5-minute lists were weak but the point was to make semi-comparable lists. At that point I think it is a matter of choice - more survivable SM bikes or more killy (potentially) RW bikes.

DAaddict wrote:
If we want to win every game, we should play triple drake, 5-9 vendetta or triple Riptide lists... For now... or wait for the next broken thing that comes out. LOL

I think that having fun is still the best part of the game. While crushing my enemies and hearing the lamentation of their women is nice... I must say the most enjoyable games I have had have been against non-spam-the-unkillable lists against good players...

As far as heldrakes and vendettas, they are my most hated models... 80$ each, and it seems the idiot's answer to dominating every game. I find the whole intro to flyers a real turn off to the game as what used to be a good competitive 1850 world has turned into a 1300 point pick your holes and spam the broken part. I refused to build the automatic answer of ally guards and take 2 or 3 vendettas.

I agree that my 5-minute lists were weak but the point was to make semi-comparable lists. At that point I think it is a matter of choice - more survivable SM bikes or more killy (potentially) RW bikes.

What you are not necessarily seeing is that you take the RW list and remove the dark knights and put in a LR crusador with a BoD greenwing command squad in it. Put a libby with PFG in with the RW command squad and hide them behind the LR. You now have a 4++ LR with a biker bubble to advance toward the enemy. When a triple drake shows up you should already have decimated most of the enemy on the board (leave a bunch of 1/2 broken enemy squads) and be in assault with the enemies own units. The hellturkey should have few if any targets to even fire at as he cannot fire at units in melee. You hit and run out of combat, shoot an enemy, and reengage and the enemy spends their turn frustrated that their hellturkey flies about impotently..

In my experience the stronger lists are usually only have ~4 flyers in them. CSM don't usually do all that well with more than 2 hellturkeys as they then have too few points left for anything else. The strongest list that is all flyers is the necron w/ CSM allies which only has 1 hellturkey. Your theoretical 5-9 vendetta and triple drake list is not actually a very good lists and dies utterly to bad matchups. Most flyers only get 2-3 turns of full shooting and spend the rest of the game trying to get a good angle to shoot. The great thing about biker armies is that you can turbo boost behind the enemy flyers to get out of their threat range. An all flyer list is not threatening, a well constructed 2 hellturkey list with proper ground support is much scarier as you will not control the board well enough to turboboost forward into the enemy board to escape the hellturkeys.

The 4++ doesn't work on the land raider as per th new FAQ.

Not if it is inside, no.

If it follows it yes.

There's always blood rodeo.... but they can never be troops :(

Run Ravenwing and allie in the white scars from SM codex, means you get the goodies from both and just run it as a white scars themed army.

Pure bike lists have a lot of built in weaknesses you should be aware of.
Add in some stormtalons and you have a lot more of an effective list.

Pony_law wrote:
The 4++ doesn't work on the land raider as per th new FAQ.

which FAQ is this in?