Best Chaos Heavy support choses

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**krazykishere**

I run 3 maulerfiends in my fast assault list and they are epic in that role. 2 bike units and 1 spawn backed up by 4*5 noise marines w/ BM has been very successful for me. The oh crap mental effects do a lot of the work for me in early tournament rounds.

**reiner**

Couldn't agree more on the obliterators. The best advice with them is plan their shots out for the next turn. What I mean by that is if you plan on firing lascannons this turn, move them to take advantage of melta the next turn. Their one weakness isn't that big of a deal, especially if you run multiple units of them.

Love the Vindicators, even when I am only fielding one (try to run with other big nasties when I do). Fielding multiple will keep it from being focused down.

**krazykishere**

I want to try running a vindicator behind 2 maulerfiends.

**minigun762**

I know people start with the 4x autocannons for their Havocs but the extra S and better AP of lascannons is so tempting, even more thanks to Riptide and Broadsides.

**herpguy**

Obliterators are cool, but are pretty much the noob choice IMO. There is really no reason to not take at least 2 squads of 4x autocannon havocs. 2 squads cost about as much as 3 nurgle oblits. Vindicators are extremely fun when you're taking 3, but they really don't work so well anymore.

**Mr. Voidness**

herpguy wrote:
Obliterators are cool, but are pretty much the noob choice IMO. There is really no reason to not take at least 2 squads of 4x autocannon havocs. 2 squads cost about as much as 3 nurgle oblits. Vindicators are extremely fun when you're taking 3, but they really don't work so well anymore.

Well, for me "the reason not to take" autocannons is because I don't find any useful targets for them in my meta. People are bringing high AV or doesn't bring it at all with few exceptions. On the other hand, oblits can start with LC, move on to plasma cannon and then take whatever role they need OR I can take lascannons and be able to threaten high AV, MC, TEQ armor and such. Autocannons just feels like auto wounding long ranged bolters in most cases.

**Wyrdeone**

herpguy wrote:
Obliterators are cool, but are pretty much the noob choice IMO. There is really no reason to not take at least 2 squads of 4x autocannon havocs. 2 squads cost about as much as 3 nurgle oblits. Vindicators are extremely fun when you're taking 3, but they really don't work so well anymore.

I couldn't disagree more.

'Noobs' go into a game with a plan, and stick to it even when it's not working - "Stay the Course"! (I'm going to spam missles/autocannons/plasma and hope I don't run into something wierd)

I gladly pay the tax for the ability to have a swiss army knife unit that can adapt to any situation.

Clumped up terminators @ 30"? Plasma cannon.

Spread out terminators @ 11"? Twin-linked plasma guns.

AV14? Twin linked melta.

AV13 @ 45"? Lascannons.

It's incredibly valuable to have a unit that can respond to the game as it changes.

AC havoks are good at what they do, but they suck at killing terminators, 3+ armor monstrous creatures, AV14, etc., etc..

If you have half a mind for target priority, Obliterators are always optimal, turn after turn, after turn.

That's what makes them so good.

**cod3x**

I wouldn't triple up on Oblits, but they are definately auto include

My best tactic so far has been DS 3 Oblits as retinue for a Lv 3 Biomancy Sorc with burning brand. Biomancy Oblits are nasty as any unit in the game.

I recommend either 1 demonically possessed Vindicator and your 5 man Havoc Squads, or two Vanilla Vindicators. Both good options.

Maulerfiends are amazing in the right list, everything else is awesome looking and too expensive, but fun. Only fun, but really fun.

**herpguy**

It sounds great on paper, but when you actually play games with them, you'll realize you're paying a huge amount for adaptability. Sure, you can deal with everything, but you only get 3 shots of that weapon per turn.

2 squads of AC havocs will cause 2.4 unsaved wounds on a T6 3+ monstrous creature per turn. Obliterators are extremely hard pressed to compete with that efficiency.

Obliterators really cannot reliably take out AV14, unless you use them as suicide, and if you're doing that, terminators can do the same thing for much cheaper.

As far as killing terminators, Oblits can do it well with plasma cannons, but what happens next turn? The CSM codex has more than enough units that can carry plasma to do it more efficiently. What's the cheapest one? Havocs. A squad with 4x plasma guns is 135 points; cheaper than 2 obliterators with the firepower of 4.

**minigun762**

I think a more natural comparison is havocs vs predators.

Both are static long range fire support units that are well priced.

Obliterators are mobile medium range fire support units that trade firepower density for adaptability.

None of these choices are directly comparable to the short range power of maulerfiends or vindicators.

**Ifepy**

Defilers are incredibly good IMO. You hang them back with their 72" range str 8 ap 3. A very good ordnance weapon as is the Vindicator's str 10 cannon.

I usually take both and get a forgefiend in there.

**cowmonaut**

herpguy wrote:
2 squads of AC havocs will cause 2.4 unsaved wounds on a T6 3+ monstrous creature per turn. Obliterators are extremely hard pressed to compete with that efficiency.

Uh, what reality are you living in? 3 Obliterators with Twin-Linked Plasma Guns at BS 4 pop out 2.67 wounds before you factor in the fact they are Twin-Linked. Even better, use Assault Cannons and put out another 1.78 wounds and 1.33 Rending hits for over 3 unsaved wounds.

Havocs cannot compete for Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle for survivability or damage output, or versatility. Sad but true.

**Talizvar**

Pony_law wrote:

Good: Havocs, vindicators, and preditors. Cheap effective fire power. They suffer from some survivability issues but they still all are solid. They also get a knock because they would fit better into gtunline builds and CSM IMO don't have the ability with the rest of the codex to create competative gunlines.

This is correct.

Obliterators are expensive but can also be used well if put into cover effectively.

**minigun762**

cowmonaut wrote:

Havocs cannot compete for Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle for survivability or damage output, or versatility. Sad but true.

That's not true.
2 Nurgle Oblits with VotLW = 156
5 Havocs with VotLW and 4 lascannons = 160 points

So already the Havocs have twice the long range firepower turn. This is before factoring in the forced weapon changes for Oblits.
As far as durability.
Against small arms, Oblits are the big winner. Against things like plasma, it's closer. Assuming a 4+ cover save. It will take:
15 plasma/melta/lascannon shots to kill the Oblits
18 to kill the Havocs

**Wyrdeone**

herpguy wrote:
The CSM codex has more than enough units that can carry plasma to do it more efficiently. What's the cheapest one? Havocs. A squad with 4x plasma guns is 135 points; cheaper than 2 obliterators with the firepower of 4.

Almost any focused squad is going to have better functionality in their specific role - that's not the point.

Obliterators help mitigate the unknown factor when building a TAC list. You have no idea before deployment whether you'll be facing globs of terminators, monstrous creatures, AV12, AV14, etc..

If you're sitting there with 2 squads of AC havoks because they're more efficient, and you come up against terminators, or AV14, you're in trouble. If you've got Plas havoks, and you find yourself dealing with AV14, or stand-off shooting, you're in trouble. And so on.

And yes, a well built army will have answers to all possible problems, but there's only so many points to play with. 2 answers don't solve 6 problems.

That's where the obliterators are golden. They can adapt to fill any gaps in your list created by your opponent's attempts at target saturation.

**Kain**

Thariinye wrote:
CSM Heavy Support I feel really depends on what the rest of your army wants to be doing, and whether you want your heavy support to be doing the opposite of that or doing the same thing.

Let's start with Nurgle Obliterators (dude you're basically always taking MoN on them, it's too much of a benefit not to). As other people have said, and especially now that they can't shoot the same weapon twice in a row, Obliterators aren't that good if you want a gunline. Obliterators are SnP, so they should always be moving forwards. By the end of the game, they should be TL Melta, TL Plasma or TL Flamering away -- you get the most value out of them at this point. Thus, if you're taking Obliterators, you don't want them to be the only forward targets, as they'll just get shot to pieces. T5 works to keep them safe from most non-focus fire, but it won't help if the enemy turns their best guns on them. Obliterators work best when you have other elements moving forwards as well, like a Juggerlord, or Rhinos with Noise Marines, or allied wraiths/Boyz/whatever. Obliterators do not work well when the rest of your army is a gunline.

The same theories apply to Maulerfiends and Vindicators, except that these two are fast enough to be the distraction from the other elements of your forward moving army. While Obliterators are your late-game anchor, these two are the first strikers. You start a piece trade with these guys, or force your opponent to deal with them first, while the rest of your army is spared from enemy fire.

On the other hand, Predators and Forgefiends pressure towards a more gunline-oriented strategy. Despite the relatively short range on the Forgefiend's weapons iirc, both of these want to offer back-row fire support.

Defilers have no clue as to what they want. If they were priced as Soulgrinders, or had AV13 like Soulgrinders, they'd be good (or at least not as bad as they are now), but as it is, equipping them for ranged firepower is largely worthless b/c Ordnance battlecannon ruins the rest of its shooting, and AV12 is not something you want to risk 200 points on near meltas. In a competitive HS slot, I can't see defilers being worth it for any tactical purpose. They could be made to work if it's like 2k Double force org and you go 6 Defilers 3 Helbrutes and a warpsmith all moving up, but in other situations, they're overpriced and badly outfitted for whatever role they want to pursue. And if you're doing heavy skew HS in double force org, why not go 6 Maulerfiends or 18 Obliterators?

Not to mention that the Defiler has an absolutely enormous base despite not being all that durable. It's essentially wearing a sign on it's chest saying "shoot me lascannons! Shoot me now!" A request which the nearest Vendetta will happily oblige.

**cowmonaut**

minigun762 wrote:
cowmonaut wrote:

Havocs cannot compete for Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle for survivability or damage output, or versatility. Sad but true.

That's not true.
2 Nurgle Oblits with VotLW = 156
5 Havocs with VotLW and 4 lascannons = 160 points

So already the Havocs have twice the long range firepower turn. This is before factoring in the forced weapon changes for Oblits.
As far as durability.
Against small arms, Oblits are the big winner. Against things like plasma, it's closer. Assuming a 4+ cover save. It will take:
15 plasma/melta/lascannon shots to kill the Oblits
18 to kill the Havocs

I don't get where your numbers are coming from. What BS is that at? And are you looking at only Plasma Gun shots or an entire unit firing? Can't look at things in a vacuum. More than just Plasma will be going at either one of these. Plus if it was just Plasma, its the same to-hit and to-wound regardless of the target in this case. So the 1 wound difference is the only thing that matters.

Let's say 10 Grey Hunters with double Plasma come down in Rapid Fire range on both those units. Here's what happens:

- Havocs take the following unsaved wounds: 1.78 from Bolters and 2.22 from Plasma. 3-4 Havocs are dead.
- Obliterators take the following unsaved wounds: 0.59 from Bolters and 2.22 from Plasma. 2-3 wounds are dealt, so 1 Obliterator is dead.

So in a 'worst case' scenario with a Drop Pod full of angry Space Wolves landing on you, both units lose about 50% of their firepower.

Say its not 'worst case'. Say you are getting plinked by Autocannons or something. I'll say a HWT with 3 Autocannons:

- Havocs take 0.83 unsaved wounds
- Obliterators take 0.42 unsaved wounds.

Or how about an IG Blob in Rapid Fire range with FRFSRF! issued to it?

- Havocs take 3.5 Lasgun wounds, 0.17 Laspistol wounds, 1.25 Lascannon wounds (4.92 wounds total)
- Obliterators take 0.875 unsaved wounds, 0.04 Laspistol wounds, 1.25 Lascannon wounds (2.17 wounds total)

The point is, once you take out AP 2, the Obliterators start performing far better than the Havocs. Almost twice as durable between the increased Toughness and the 2+ save. Couple that with the fact that Obliterators aren't stuck with Lascannons like the Havocs are and its just full of win IMO.

Edit: Just realized I forgot about the 5++ for the Obliterators! So outside of cover, the Obliterators are going to take fewer wounds from the Plasma Guns than the Havocs as well.

**Red Corsair**

With more and more MC entering the fray I find MON Oblits to be MUCH worse then Havocs as havocs out range them and don't let smashing MC spring board into my lines turn 2. Consider that oblits are out ranged by a riptide who has JSJ so you can never get close to use your other armament (thanks slow and purposeful) it would take 3MoN oblits ~7 turns using lascanons to down a riptide... yea that's some awesome out put considering you out cost that riptide.

1st turn 3 shots 2 hits two wounds
2nd turn no shot
3rd turn 3 shots two hits 2 more wounds
4th turn no shot
5th turn 3 shots two hits 2 wounds 2 saves! (remember he has a 5++ and I am assuming 6 wounds from 6 hits, should fail one)
6th turn no shot
7th turn you drop him

Obviously you are shooting other units along the way when you can't range the RT but come on a RT is 190 stock and has 5 2+ 5++ wounds and similar FP on a monstrous creatur with T6.... Oblits are very over priced this edition.

The new weapon changes really screwed oblits over IMO.

2x Two MON oblits with vets=316

Havocs with four las canons=160

Havocs with 4 auto c= 120

280 compared to 316 and the havocs can sit pretty at 48"Who needs to worry about small arms fire when you aren't being shot by small arms. Meanwhile I have double the AT, AA, and AI every turn instead of having to stagger step my weapons and where they are every turn.

For all the flexibilty Oblits used to enjoy, having to switch weapons each turn is something a good opponent will be able to enjoy now. I like oblits but they need to be in a mid range list with the right support or they are not very scary.

**grendel083**

Having used a Defiler quite a bit recently, I've found it's not as flimsy as it AV12 would suggest.
4 hull points (which can regen), 5++, ignore stuns/shaken...
Glancing it to death is a nightmare, to kill it you need to pen it, not glance it.

**NuggzTheNinja**

As a disciple of the 9 Obliterator + Double Lash Sorcerer + Plague Marine lists of 5th edition, I've got a soft spot in my heart for those mushy goofballs. They aren't exactly the same without the ability to reposition your opponent's units into small blast marker-sized clusters for the Plasma Cannons, but they're still pretty nifty...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:
Having used a Defiler quite a bit recently, I've found it's not as flimsy as it AV12 would suggest.
4 hull points (which can regen), 5++, ignore stuns/shaken...
Glancing it to death is a nightmare, to kill it you need to pen it, not glance it.

Unfortunately there are no shortage of things that can penetrate AV12 at range. If this thing was AV13 then it'd be a serious contender. As-is...very meh.

**Kain**

grendel083 wrote:
Having used a Defiler quite a bit recently, I've found it's not as flimsy as it AV12 would suggest.
4 hull points (which can regen), 5++, ignore stuns/shaken...
Glancing it to death is a nightmare, to kill it you need to pen it, not glance it.

Too bad the most commonly spammed unit in the game laughs at AV12, and the Hive Guard, which shows up in like all the Tyranid lists blows through AV12 like tissue paper, and Long Fangs blast through it like nothing with krak missiles or las cannons, and Predator annihilators can pen it, and Lootas can pen it (and with the ridiculous number of dice they will throw at you, something will break through), Missile sides can pen it (again, they can throw out more than enough dice), Autocannon spam can pen it, Psycannons can pen it, Psyflemen dreads will blow it up and make you cry, Butcher cannons will well...butcher it...Hades Autocannons will make it cry, Zoanthropes laugh at your AV12, Meltas laugh at AV12, Haywires will get enough glances to take all it's hull points away anyway, Gauss spam can also glance it to dust, a monstrous creature will rip it open like the tin can it is after a single round of smashing, and the list goes on and on and on.

**Pony_law**

Red Corsair wrote:
With more and more MC entering the fray I find MON Oblits to be MUCH worse then Havocs as havocs out range them and don't let smashing MC spring board into my lines turn 2. Consider that oblits are out ranged by a riptide who has JSJ so you can never get close to use your other armament (thanks slow and purposeful) it would take 3MoN oblits ~7 turns using lascanons to down a riptide... yea that's some awesome out put considering you out cost that riptide.

1st turn 3 shots 2 hits two wounds
2nd turn no shot
3rd turn 3 shots two hits 2 more wounds
4th turn no shot
5th turn 3 shots two hits 2 wounds 2 saves! (remember he has a 5++ and I am assuming 6 wounds from 6 hits, should fail one)
6th turn no shot
7th turn you drop him

Obviously you are shooting other units along the way when you can't range the RT but come on a RT is 190 stock and has 5 2+ 5++ wounds and similar FP on a monstrous creatur with T6.... Oblits are very over priced this edition.

The new weapon changes really screwed oblits over IMO.

2x Two MON oblits with vets=316

Havocs with four las canons=160

Havocs with 4 auto c= 120

280 compared to 316 and the havocs can sit pretty at 48"Who needs to worry about small arms fire when you aren't being shot by small arms. Meanwhile I have double the AT, AA, and AI every turn instead of having to stagger step my weapons and where they are every turn.

For all the flexibilty Oblits used to enjoy, having to switch weapons each turn is something a good opponent will be able to enjoy now. I like oblits but they need to be in a mid range list with the right support or they are not very scary.

You solve the range issue with Oblits through deep strike. Havocs are good but there is so much AP3 ignore cover in the meta right now I think havocs just die to easily.

**herpguy**

cowmonaut wrote:
herpguy wrote:
2 squads of AC havocs will cause 2.4 unsaved wounds on a T6 3+ monstrous creature per turn. Obliterators are extremely hard pressed to compete with that efficiency.

Uh, what reality are you living in? 3 Obliterators with Twin-Linked Plasma Guns at BS 4 pop out 2.67 wounds before you factor in the fact they are Twin-Linked. Even better, use Assault Cannons and put out another 1.78 wounds and 1.33 Rending hits for over 3 unsaved wounds.

Havocs cannot compete for Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle for survivability or damage output, or versatility. Sad but true.

...and in order to accomplish that you need to be 12" away from said monstrous creature. If you're rapid-firing a MC that you will not bring down, you are not going to last too long.
Oblits are great in a vacuum, but in a real game Havocs just sit back, relax, and light up the whole board.

**Wyrdeone**

Havoks are static.

Chaos gunlines usually suck it against real gunlines.

So..what's the appeal?

If your whole army is hanging around backfield, most other 'shooty' armies outshoot you (by a wide margin).

If your havoks are hanging around your backfield, while everything else is running forward, then your havoks are easily trapped and killed by units designed for that specific purpose.

Obliterators have dynamic deployment (DS) and can move with your army. That alone is worth a points premium, nevermind their flexibility.

**85chadillac**

herpguy wrote:

Oblits are great in a vacuum, but in a real game Havocs just sit back, relax, and light up the whole board.

Im sorry, but the way you are arguing Havocs is probably the worst example of in a vacuum I have read in this post. Havocs, as have been mentioned several times in this post, are static and serve a limited role. Oblits, through their various weapons and deployment options, are truly a more versatile unit. Yes a unit of Havocs can fill different roles, but they must be specifically kitted out for those roles, once kitted they are locked in. With Oblits, you are never locked into any one role. Obliterators, more than most of the units in the codex, do not fit into any box and function well outside of said vacuum, and your argument against them is weakened when you make comments like that. Again, I'm sorry if you spent a bunch of money on Havocs when you were told they were the most efficient shooty unit in the codex--that may be, but only in a limited context. Obliterators simply give you more options to deal with your opponent without list tailoring.

**minigun762**

cowmonaut wrote:

I don't get where your numbers are coming from. What BS is that at? And are you looking at only Plasma Gun shots or an entire unit firing? Can't look at things in a vacuum. More than just Plasma will be going at either one of these. Plus if it was just Plasma, its the same to-hit and to-wound regardless of the target in this case. So the 1 wound difference is the only thing that matters.

Let's say 10 Grey Hunters with double Plasma come down in Rapid Fire range on both those units. Here's what happens:

- Havocs take the following unsaved wounds: 1.78 from Bolters and 2.22 from Plasma. 3-4 Havocs are dead.
- Obliterators take the following unsaved wounds: 0.59 from Bolters and 2.22 from Plasma. 2-3 wounds are dealt, so 1 Obliterator is dead.

So in a 'worst case' scenario with a Drop Pod full of angry Space Wolves landing on you, both units lose about 50% of their firepower.

Say its not 'worst case'. Say you are getting plinked by Autocannons or something. I'll say a HWT with 3 Autocannons:

- Havocs take 0.83 unsaved wounds
- Obliterators take 0.42 unsaved wounds.

Or how about an IG Blob in Rapid Fire range with FRFSRF! issued to it?

- Havocs take 3.5 Lasgun wounds, 0.17 Laspistol wounds, 1.25 Lascannon wounds (4.92 wounds total)
- Obliterators take 0.875 unsaved wounds, 0.04 Laspistol wounds, 1.25 Lascannon wounds (2.17 wounds total)

The point is, once you take out AP 2, the Obliterators start performing far better than the Havocs. Almost twice as durable between the increased Toughness and the 2+ save. Couple that with the fact that Obliterators aren't stuck with Lascannons like the Havocs are and its just full of win IMO.

Edit: Just realized I forgot about the 5++ for the Obliterators! So outside of cover, the Obliterators are going to take fewer wounds from the Plasma Guns than the Havocs as well.

Numbers were based on a BS4 enemy shooting you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Obliterators are bad. They are a durable, flexible unit and a great TAC choice.
My point was more that against high power weapons, they will tend to die faster than the equal amount of points of Havocs.
The more important issue is that they have lower firepower when compared to Havocs or Predators.

**herpguy**

POKEYtheBIG wrote:
herpguy wrote:

Oblits are great in a vacuum, but in a real game Havocs just sit back, relax, and light up the whole board.

Im sorry, but the way you are arguing Havocs is probably the worst example of in a vacuum I have read in this post. Havocs, as have been mentioned several times in this post, are static and serve a limited role. Oblits, through their various weapons and deployment options, are truly a more versatile unit. Yes a unit of Havocs can fill different roles, but they must be specifically kitted out for those roles, once kitted they are locked in. With Oblits, you are never locked into any one role. Obliterators, more than most of the units in the codex, do not fit into any box and function well outside of said vacuum, and your argument against them is weakened when you make comments like that. Again, I'm sorry if you spent a bunch of money on Havocs when you were told they were the most efficient shooty unit in the codex--that may be, but only in a limited context. Obliterators simply give you more options to deal with your opponent without list tailoring.

When I was a beginner I loved obliterators. Pay the points and use them; you'll always be prepared, no thinking or tactics required.
Then this edition I started using havocs more and more, as on the tabletop they outperform obliterators for the points.

**cowmonaut**

herpguy wrote:...and in order to accomplish that you need to be 12" away from said monstrous creature. If you're rapid-firing a MC that you will not bring down, you are not going to last too long.
Oblits are great in a vacuum, but in a real game Havocs just sit back, relax, and light up the whole board.

And since Assault Cannons are better than TL Plasma Guns vs MCs (as shown in the very same paragraph you quoted) then enjoy the 24" range of the AC's. 6" + 24" for a 30" effective range when you are already on the board isn't bad.

minigun762 wrote:Numbers were based on a BS4 enemy shooting you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Obliterators are bad. They are a durable, flexible unit and a great TAC choice.
My point was more that against high power weapons, they will tend to die faster than the equal amount of points of Havocs.
The more important issue is that they have lower firepower when compared to Havocs or Predators.

I agree that you can get more wounds on your Havocs than Obliterators and if its S6+ AP2 shots we are talking about, and both units are in the same cover, then yes. Totally in agreement. The more wounds will win out. Plasma is the great equalizer heh.

228 pt Oblits versus 155 point Havocs have the Havocs edge out by one shot on firepower. In order to be as durable though you have to start adding more bodies, as the Oblits already have a wound up on you and like we've established, its the number of wounds that becomes more important vs Plasma.

To each their own really. Its close enough now that we've looked at the numbers in this thread that it really is just about what suits your list better.

**85chadillac**

herpguy wrote:

When I was a beginner I loved obliterators. Pay the points and use them; you'll always be prepared, no thinking or tactics required.
Then this edition I started using havocs more and more, as on the tabletop they outperform obliterators for the points.

Your missing it man. Obliterators require you to think, plan ahead and implement tactics--when to fire what weapons, if and where to deepstrike, etc. By your own admission you feel that taking Havocs allows you to sit back and relax. So how is that not paying the points, using them and feeling that you will always be prepared, no thinking or tactics required. You contradict yourself and again it weakens your argument.

**minigun762**

cowmonaut wrote:

To each their own really. Its close enough now that we've looked at the numbers in this thread that it really is just about what suits your list better.

What?!
You mean the internet doesn't have to reach a consensus on what is the absolute best unit and brutally mock anyone who dares to use anything else?

I...I don't understand.

Seriously though, your post sums up how internet discussions should be played out. Ideas tossed around, some data thrown out there for review and ultimately its up to each player to decide what's best for their army and their local gaming circle.