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 Valek wrote:
all this solutions is when you face 6 wraith not 18 which is pain to get rid of.
on the other hand you must also take into account that those annihilation barges and flyers will take out the shooting in turns1 & 2...

EVERYTHING in the game is exponentially more threatening when massed in large quantities.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've used plague marines on them to great effect. Wraiths are vulnerable to lots of low strength wounds, which plague marines can bring plenty of with poisoned weapons.

Is there anything Plague Marines AREN'T good at?!?!?!

 whitedragon wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've used plague marines on them to great effect. Wraiths are vulnerable to lots of low strength wounds, which plague marines can bring plenty of with poisoned weapons.

Is there anything Plague Marines AREN'T good at?!?!?!

Running

 whitedragon wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've used plague marines on them to great effect. Wraiths are vulnerable to lots of low strength wounds, which plague marines can bring plenty of with poisoned weapons.

Is there anything Plague Marines AREN'T good at?!?!?!

Shooting over 24". They are mid-range troops only. Their very good at it, but don't have much for the long range game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:
Running

??
They don't have SnP. They can run just fine.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 whitedragon wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've used plague marines on them to great effect. Wraiths are vulnerable to lots of low strength wounds, which plague marines can bring plenty of with poisoned weapons.

Is there anything Plague Marines AREN'T good at?!?!?!

Shooting over 24". They are mid-range troops only. Their very good at it, but don't have much for the long range game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anonymou5 wrote:
Running

??
They don't have SnP. They can run just fine.

Never mind that then, haha. Could of sworn they did.

You might as well throw out anything CC answers that don't move 12". Wraiths are fast so footslogging infantry have no chance of catching wraiths unless their player wants you too.

Best CC option is Nurgle Spawn. 15 wounds at T6 will be tough for the wraiths to stack wounds and will pump out a 1d6x5 attacks.

Best shooting solution is probably (gasp) a Hades autocannon forgefiend. Back him up with an allied Tzeentch herald for prescience and your killing 2 wraiths a turn from turn one on. Wraiths become much less effective once their model count dips a bit.

Autocannon Havocs are a good cheap solution to putting wounds on wraiths from the get go. Its very tough to get in rapid fire range on wraiths due to their mobility before they charge you. Long range firepower to soften them up is prolly the best solution.

If he is using a Destroyer lord to tank wounds with his 2+ toss some lascannons in their just to force some LoS rolls. Destroyer Lord with 2+/3++ is nasty with a unit of wraiths. No easy way around that for Chaos.

Try Forgefiends. Or Missile Havocs. Once theyre down to 1-2 models they can be rapid fired or charges to death.

My issue with Necron Waiths isn't that they are good. I think codexes should be allowed to have good units.

My issue with the Necron Wraith is how they stack up to similar units. Probably the closest equivalent to a Necron Wraith I can find is Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Those of you with access to both codexes should see that they stack up very similarly in capabilities, with a couple of notable changes.

Wraiths ignore terrain, deepstrike and have an invulnerable save.
Thunderwolf Cavalry has a bolt pistol and cost more than 40% more.

Keep in mind that Thunderwolf Cavalry is probably the scariest nastiest assault unit in a codex known for doing well in assaults.

had the Wraiths been costed appropriately I don't think many people would have an issue. But the price that they are for what they can do is ridiculous. They would still be highly cost effective if they cost 40 - 50% more.

For a CSM player: Mass cultists with autoguns, go for 25 of them a pop, MoT if you really want to kill some Wraiths, any kind of mass firepower will wipe them off the face of the God-Emperor's Galaxy

TWC are not in the same league as Wraiths. No way, no how. Wraiths are a unit good enough to build an army around. TWC barely make it into any SW lists at the moment.

 LValx wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
When i play my Wraiths i tedn to try and keep them out of LOS or at least in cover aroudnt he middle of the table - this is because all my regular opponents know to target them with volume of fire.

The basically lurk until a target presents itself and then pounce.

I did try barrelling them across the table when i first got them but i found that in the open you tend to lose at least a couple to mass fire on the way in - and even losing 2 can make a massive dent in their cc potential.

Same way I tend to use them. Better to not be overly aggressive and just use them as board control.

This, 100 times. I have seen so many people using Wraiths as an offensive unit and the utterly failing. People always forget about their huge mobility. Just hide behind LOS blocking terrain and threaten enemy units, zone them out.

Glocknall wrote:
You might as well throw out anything CC answers that don't move 12". Wraiths are fast so footslogging infantry have no chance of catching wraiths unless their player wants you too.

There's a fundamental misconception here about unit speed which I see people fall into occasionally in various discussions (including, for example, evaluations of whether the Great Unclean One is any good). This speed comparison is only really true on a table of unlimited size, and in a game with no objectives in play. In normal play (aside from certain Purge the Alien situations), an assault unit can't just run away all game. They have to move forward if they want to attack things and contribute to the game, and in so doing they can easily be charged by units which only move 6", if those opposing units are positioned and maneuvered correctly.

Glocknall wrote:
Best CC option is Nurgle Spawn. 15 wounds at T6 will be tough for the wraiths to stack wounds and will pump out a 1d6x5 attacks.

Best shooting solution is probably (gasp) a Hades autocannon forgefiend. Back him up with an allied Tzeentch herald for prescience and your killing 2 wraiths a turn from turn one on. Wraiths become much less effective once their model count dips a bit.

Autocannon Havocs are a good cheap solution to putting wounds on wraiths from the get go. Its very tough to get in rapid fire range on wraiths due to their mobility before they charge you. Long range firepower to soften them up is prolly the best solution.

If he is using a Destroyer lord to tank wounds with his 2+ toss some lascannons in their just to force some LoS rolls. Destroyer Lord with 2+/3++ is nasty with a unit of wraiths. No easy way around that for Chaos.

All of the above advice is pretty good, though. Although I think the Forgefield is too expensive and too situation-specific to be worth fielding.

Wraiths by themselves are extremely good, but not all that terrifying; it's when they have the Destroyer Lord tanking hits on his 2+ save, and bringing Mindshackle to screw over powerful enemy assault units & characters which can beat the wraiths (15pts for a 50/50 shot or better, each round, at absolutely boning your assault monster character? Don't mind if I do!) that they really get challenging to counter.

One unit I like against them is the ubiquitous Nurgle Oblits. They can put Lascannon & MM shots at range which will kill whole wraiths on failed saves, and ignore the Destroyer Lord's armor save if he doesn't Look Out Sir, or use Assault Cannons if they're shooting from the flank and the Destroyer Lord isn't tanking the hits.. Up close they can TL meltagun for the same effect, with more accuracy. Then they can charge, again with S8, AP2 to instant-kill Wraiths and ignore the save on the DL. It's not ideal, but the Wraiths and DL need a 4+ to hit you, and the Wraiths need a 3+ to wound (re-rolling 1s on both), but the Wraiths only Rend on 6s to wound; everything else you have a 2+ save against. The DL wounds on a 2+ and you only get a 5+ against it, but he's only got 3A at WS4, so it's not too terrifying. A unit of Oblits will generally lose to a full unit of Wraiths + DL straight up, but 3-4 Oblits may be able to finish the job on a damaged unit.

 Griddlelol wrote:
TWC are not in the same league as Wraiths. No way, no how. Wraiths are a unit good enough to build an army around. TWC barely make it into any SW lists at the moment.

It's an apt unit to use to show how good Wraiths are. A TWC with Storm Shield is SLIGHTLY better than a Wraith. (one higher T, one less S, same saves, same level of wounds, one extra attack, always gets Hammer of Wrath, but takes dangerous terrain tests, lower leadership, assault grenades, higher I), for more than double the cost.

kissmymom wrote:
He attached a destroyer lord with his wraiths. which is really a pain. they are re-rolling 1s and rending on 6s

How about bringing a guard ally with a unit of 9 psyker battle squad behind an ADL and combo it with a telepathy? Psychic shriek would do the job. Rolling terrify even better.

Mannhaim, GUO can only move 30inches in a 5 turn game (excluding charge ranges and difficult terrain) if you deploy on your deployment zone edge you will get into their deployment turn 4 and half way in or quarter way in on turn 5 if its a direct route with no terrain. The GUO will create say a 15inch bubble around him but its a expensive bubble imo.

Back on topic, wraiths are very good at board control, they are a psychological unit in that players who dont know how to handle them will avoid them at all cost or drip feed them

MarkyMark wrote:
Mannhaim, GUO can only move 30inches in a 5 turn game (excluding charge ranges and difficult terrain) if you deploy on your deployment zone edge you will get into their deployment turn 4 and half way in or quarter way in on turn 5 if its a direct route with no terrain. The GUO will create say a 15inch bubble around him but its a expensive bubble imo.

A) You can Deep Strike him.
B) Excluding charge ranges is not helpful for a real evaluation of the unit's tactical worth.
C) If you are playing a game with objectives it is a pretty simple task to ensure that the Great Unclean one is able to threaten one (usually two or more, if playing d3+2 objectives) of those objectives, taking it away from the enemy and/or helping you secure it yourself.
D)/E) He's pretty cheap for what he does. He's also an extremely durable Warlord.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
You might as well throw out anything CC answers that don't move 12". Wraiths are fast so footslogging infantry have no chance of catching wraiths unless their player wants you too.

There's a fundamental misconception here about unit speed which I see people fall into occasionally in various discussions (including, for example, evaluations of whether the Great Unclean One is any good). This speed comparison is only really true on a table of unlimited size, and in a game with no objectives in play. In normal play (aside from certain Purge the Alien situations), an assault unit can't just run away all game. They have to move forward if they want to attack things and contribute to the game, and in so doing they can easily be charged by units which only move 6", if those opposing units are positioned and maneuvered correctly.

That is true, especially for dedicated CC armies, but Wraiths are so undercosted and Necrons have such good shooting options they don't necessarily have to force the assault. They can move around denying board control and allowing the cheap Anni Barges and Night Scythes to do their work while protecting their own units from assault. Then they charge late game into weakened units and slaughter them.

I really don't think they Forgefiend would be overcosted if it was BS4 instead of 3. It does get twice the number of shots of a psyrifleman dread. But not being twinlinked and BS3 just kills it.

The problem with Chaos is that Necrons hit them where their weak. Chaos really doesn't to volume of fire well. CSM are just not good and cultists need character support to survive causalities. I think allies are really needed to deal with wraiths. Daemons would be a good fit as they have lots of fast assault stuff. There is a good reason why necrons are so good right now. Wraiths are a top flight CC unit. No easy way around it.

Agreed. Wraiths are excellent, and inexpensive for what they do. But it's the fact that they're also in an army which brings extremely effective and inexpensive shooting at the same time which really makes them shine.

for space dawgs JOTWW is insanely good

 Mannahnin wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Mannhaim, GUO can only move 30inches in a 5 turn game (excluding charge ranges and difficult terrain) if you deploy on your deployment zone edge you will get into their deployment turn 4 and half way in or quarter way in on turn 5 if its a direct route with no terrain. The GUO will create say a 15inch bubble around him but its a expensive bubble imo.

A) You can Deep Strike him.
B) Excluding charge ranges is not helpful for a real evaluation of the unit's tactical worth.
C) If you are playing a game with objectives it is a pretty simple task to ensure that the Great Unclean one is able to threaten one (usually two or more, if playing d3+2 objectives) of those objectives, taking it away from the enemy and/or helping you secure it yourself.
D)/E) He's pretty cheap for what he does. He's also an extremely durable Warlord.

A) then you cant cast things like iron arm, which for one turn takes away the sheer scariness of toughness 8plus. I will admit him deep striking down is a scary thought

B) It is balanced out by excluding difficult terrain test (even though he does have move through cover), as said I and many other players would avoid him so the charge range is null imo

C) Yep he can, espicaly relic if it isnt picked up and moved back. I managed to counter him in one game by putting a combat squad on a objective and another in front to limit his movement to that squad and as a screen to stop him assaulting the objective holding squad, the front squad had a sarg in there to challenge him out

D) He is VERY good at protecting your warlord for sure,

I'm just pointing out why "he's slow, just avoid him" isn't a universally-applicable recipe to negate the GUO. In most games he can easily reach assault unless your opponent completely cedes control of half or more of the table. Which is a recipe for for the opponent to lose in most games involving objectives.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I'm just pointing out why "he's slow, just avoid him" isn't a universally-applicable recipe to negate the GUO. In most games he can easily reach assault unless your opponent completely cedes control of half or more of the table. Which is a recipe for for the opponent to lose in most games involving objectives.

I've been playing the GUO for quite a while now, and in 3/4 of the games, hes getting into the action. Rarely is he to far back to where he cannot have some effect on the game. Being able to consolidate after killing a unit also increases his speed,

Even without Iron Arm, two greater rewards plus 2+ power on biomancy make for one extremely tough customer. The rewards can be something like "4+ FNP" or "Reroll invuln saves" Those combined with his natural toughness 7 alone are extremely brutal.

In fact I've only had the GUO die in one game I've every played him in. It took 8 TH/SS termies to take him down.

 LValx wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
When i play my Wraiths i tedn to try and keep them out of LOS or at least in cover aroudnt he middle of the table - this is because all my regular opponents know to target them with volume of fire.

The basically lurk until a target presents itself and then pounce.

I did try barrelling them across the table when i first got them but i found that in the open you tend to lose at least a couple to mass fire on the way in - and even losing 2 can make a massive dent in their cc potential.

Same way I tend to use them. Better to not be overly aggressive and just use them as board control.

I used them for the first time today and did just this. Against bolter fire they take a lot of wounds. But in CC that 3+ invuln is just king especially with a Dlord.

Glocknall wrote:
Chaos really doesn't to volume of fire well. CSM are just not good

What?

20x CSM with bolters is pretty cheap, you can go crazy on options if you want, but for a pretty modest price you got 20x BS4 rapid fire bolters. Cultists bring extra dakka for very little cost. That's not even going into things like Oblits, Noisemarines etc. We might not be Tau but we can still do the shooting game.

^
I think he meant Chaos Space MARINES themselves, not the codex in its entirety.