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Good government is in the best interest of every member of the public, regardless of partisan bent.

 Ouze wrote:
Good government is in the best interest of every member of the public, regardless of partisan bent.

Absolutely. No one should have to fear petty harassment from bureaucrats, or anyone else, because they have a different point of view.

Any group linked to politics should be looked at in microscopic detail, then probably put into jail anyway on general principles.

There probably are plenty of groups that abuse tax-exempt status, there are even churches that willfully cross that line every election season.

I think that every non-profit group should face the same scrutiny as the Tea Party & Patriot groups did, but if you don't have the staff for that then spread the joy instead of focusing on a specific group.

 d-usa wrote:
There probably are plenty of groups that abuse tax-exempt status, there are even churches that willfully cross that line every election season.

I'd even argue that house of worships don't get tax-exempt status.

I think that every non-profit group should face the same scrutiny as the Tea Party & Patriot groups did, but if you don't have the staff for that then spread the joy instead of focusing on a specific group.

Yup... agreed.

 d-usa wrote:
I think that every non-profit group should face the same scrutiny as the Tea Party & Patriot groups did, but if you don't have the staff for that then spread the joy instead of focusing on a specific group.

Absolutely. Do it fairly, or do not do it at all.

Chongara wrote:
The IRS aiming increased scrutiny at groups that constantly voice loud opinions about the evil of taxes, and even talk about how not paying taxes would actually be "Patriotic"? No. I just can't believe it. That it might be suspect that entities with members that make it really clear they'd like to get around taxes at any cost... might be... abusing tax exemption provisions?! I...I...I... just, that's so unreasonable. My world.. it's.. falling apart.... it makes no sense....

I don't understand how an organization responsible for collecting taxes, would give more attention to groups that loudly and proudly talk about how they try to avoid paying taxes. My mind is blown.

No. You don't let the IRS get away with this stuff because they were picking on the other side politics this time.

Misuse of government power is a really big deal.

 sebster wrote:

Chongara wrote:
The IRS aiming increased scrutiny at groups that constantly voice loud opinions about the evil of taxes, and even talk about how not paying taxes would actually be "Patriotic"? No. I just can't believe it. That it might be suspect that entities with members that make it really clear they'd like to get around taxes at any cost... might be... abusing tax exemption provisions?! I...I...I... just, that's so unreasonable. My world.. it's.. falling apart.... it makes no sense....

I don't understand how an organization responsible for collecting taxes, would give more attention to groups that loudly and proudly talk about how they try to avoid paying taxes. My mind is blown.

No. You don't let the IRS get away with this stuff because they were picking on the other side politics this time.

Misuse of government power is a really big deal.

I don't think Chongara's statement is meant to be "Good, they picked on the Republicans". While the post reeks of sarcasm, it seems to be more of the fact that "Groups which vocally denounced paying taxes they do not agree with were targeted by the Internal Revenue Service".

I do agree that the misuse of government power is a really big deal; but who is to say that some of the groups which were "unfairly targeted" would not have been targeted by other means?

Guess the Hatch Act was never briefed to the IRS

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think Chongara's statement is meant to be "Good, they picked on the Republicans". While the post reeks of sarcasm, it seems to be more of the fact that "Groups which vocally denounced paying taxes they do not agree with were targeted by the Internal Revenue Service".

I do agree that the misuse of government power is a really big deal; but who is to say that some of the groups which were "unfairly targeted" would not have been targeted by other means?

The problem is that he (and others) seem to have confused "We want lower taxes!" with "We will illegally refuse to pay taxes thereby becoming felons!"

I laughed a bit when the lower level GS's were operating without Supervision.....I see...quite a few people being removed from positions

 Valion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think Chongara's statement is meant to be "Good, they picked on the Republicans". While the post reeks of sarcasm, it seems to be more of the fact that "Groups which vocally denounced paying taxes they do not agree with were targeted by the Internal Revenue Service".

I do agree that the misuse of government power is a really big deal; but who is to say that some of the groups which were "unfairly targeted" would not have been targeted by other means?

The problem is that he (and others) seem to have confused "We want lower taxes!" with "We will illegally refuse to pay taxes thereby becoming felons!"

Can you prove that none of these groups which went out of their way to associate themselves with "the Tea Party" and used the terminology of "Patriots" encouraged their members to not pay taxes or encouraged their financiers to do the same?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can you prove that none of these groups which went out of their way to associate themselves with "the Tea Party" and used the terminology of "Patriots" encouraged their members to not pay taxes or encouraged their financiers to do the same?

I believe the burden of proof rests on the side that's making the accusation of criminal behavior.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think Chongara's statement is meant to be "Good, they picked on the Republicans". While the post reeks of sarcasm, it seems to be more of the fact that "Groups which vocally denounced paying taxes they do not agree with were targeted by the Internal Revenue Service".

It really, really isn't the place of the IRS or any other body to make logical leaps from 'founding documents mention Tea Party. It's a really, really dirty pool, and one that opens the door to all kinds of potential abuse.

I mean, move away from the Tea Party and just think about the GOP as a whole - most of them have problems with paying tax, so why not go after everyone on Grover Norquist's pledge?

Figure that kind of method is okay and proper routine can just be ignored, and you're on your way to being a Banana Republic.

I do agree that the misuse of government power is a really big deal; but who is to say that some of the groups which were "unfairly targeted" would not have been targeted by other means?

That's ends up being one of the end results of this. Because they were targeted in this manner, then subsequent legitimate investigations that find something will be that much harder to effectively prosecute.

I mean, consider if it is true that Tea Party groups are more likely to abuse their tax free status than other political groups*. Then if future investigations are undertaken evenly and fairly, a higher proportion of those caught will be will Tea Party groups. And then they'll cry foul 'the IRS is still persecuting us, they pretend they aren't any more but look how many of our groups the IRS is pursuing'.



*And to be honest, I kind of doubt that it is true. Ideology doesn't really play that big a part in how individuals behave in their everyday dealings, in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can you prove that none of these groups which went out of their way to associate themselves with "the Tea Party" and used the terminology of "Patriots" encouraged their members to not pay taxes or encouraged their financiers to do the same?

It isn't up to them to prove they're not guilty. The times when people were seen as 'one of them'* and given an extra burden of proof are supposed to be behind us.




*Whatever one of them was... Irish, homosexuals, Raiders fans.

Usually groups/people that say they don't want to pay taxes aren't the ones that need to be worried about (that much). Generally speaking, the ones not paying taxes, or doing dodgy things with taxes, won't advertise it or bring attention to themselves.

And an update, via Politico:

The IRS repeatedly changed the criteria it used for singling out nonprofit applications for further review, at one point looking at all groups hoping to make “America a better place to live,” according to new reports Monday morning.

The Wall Street Journal and Reuters both reported that the IRS moved beyond giving a skeptical eye to “tea party” and “patriot” groups. It was also targeting groups focusing on specific issues including “government spending,” “government debt,” “Education of the public via advocacy/lobbying to ‘make America a better place to live,’” and all groups that “criticize[d] how the country is being run.”

Read the rest here.

Evidently they also were questioning Jewish groups for their position onthe Middle East.

Lots of people need to be fired. We need resume heads on pikes in front of the IRS, and not the usual heads....

 Frazzled wrote:
Evidently they also were questioning Jewish groups for their position onthe Middle East.

Lots of people need to be fired. We need resume heads on pikes in front of the IRS, and not the usual heads....

That is disgusting. So on my next tax return will I have to provide a statement with my opinion on the Troubles because I'm a Catholic from Northern Ireland? There's, sadly, a stronger argument for that than there is for asking fr someone's political opinion based on religion.

Anyone taking part in this, any supervisor/manager/etc. who knew and turned a blind eye all need to be held to account for their actions and there needs to be a culture change within the organisation to prevent these abuses from happening again.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Evidently they also were questioning Jewish groups for their position onthe Middle East.

Lots of people need to be fired. We need resume heads on pikes in front of the IRS, and not the usual heads....

That is disgusting. So on my next tax return will I have to provide a statement with my opinion on the Troubles because I'm a Catholic from Northern Ireland? There's, sadly, a stronger argument for that than there is for asking fr someone's political opinion based on religion.

Anyone taking part in this, any supervisor/manager/etc. who knew and turned a blind eye all need to be held to account for their actions and there needs to be a culture change within the organisation to prevent these abuses from happening again.

Mr. Frazzled. It says here you're from Texas. What are your political beliefs in regards to secession.
-None may secede. All will be carried forth to greatness with his coming.
-His coming - Rick Perry? Are you a RIck Perry supporter?
-No the Great Wienie. He is coming.
-The Great Wienie? Is he a Repub...
-He transcends your mere politics. He is coming to sweep away the unrighteous.
-Er
-The UnWorthy shall be cast down from the high places.
-Er
-The Squirrel shall not hide
-Er
-The cat shall be cornered.
-I like cats.
-What...did...you...sayyyy?
-I like cats
(Frazzled opens his bag)
-Hey look whats in my bag
-A treat
(IRS agent peers into bag)
-For him....BITEBITEBITEBITE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Valion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't think Chongara's statement is meant to be "Good, they picked on the Republicans". While the post reeks of sarcasm, it seems to be more of the fact that "Groups which vocally denounced paying taxes they do not agree with were targeted by the Internal Revenue Service".

I do agree that the misuse of government power is a really big deal; but who is to say that some of the groups which were "unfairly targeted" would not have been targeted by other means?

The problem is that he (and others) seem to have confused "We want lower taxes!" with "We will illegally refuse to pay taxes thereby becoming felons!"

Can you prove that none of these groups which went out of their way to associate themselves with "the Tea Party" and used the terminology of "Patriots" encouraged their members to not pay taxes or encouraged their financiers to do the same?

Its not their burden to prove boyo.

 Jihadin wrote:
I laughed a bit when the lower level GS's were operating without Supervision.....I see...quite a few people being removed from positions

And they probably won't be replaced.

Do more with less!

 Easy E wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
I laughed a bit when the lower level GS's were operating without Supervision.....I see...quite a few people being removed from positions

And they probably won't be replaced.

Do more with less!

We've been doing it for 10 years in the AF now, no reason the IRS can't.

In the 5 years since I got to this unit, we've seen our workload effectively double, our manning get opened up for deployments (was considered deployed in place before), and our manning has at best stayed the same, with many times being way low.

Yet we've still gotten the job done.

 sebster wrote:

Chongara wrote:
The IRS aiming increased scrutiny at groups that constantly voice loud opinions about the evil of taxes, and even talk about how not paying taxes would actually be "Patriotic"? No. I just can't believe it. That it might be suspect that entities with members that make it really clear they'd like to get around taxes at any cost... might be... abusing tax exemption provisions?! I...I...I... just, that's so unreasonable. My world.. it's.. falling apart.... it makes no sense....

I don't understand how an organization responsible for collecting taxes, would give more attention to groups that loudly and proudly talk about how they try to avoid paying taxes. My mind is blown.

No. You don't let the IRS get away with this stuff because they were picking on the other side politics this time.

Misuse of government power is a really big deal.

Yup... me and "Teh Sebster" are in agreement!



It's kinda scary... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/05/12/irs-targeted-groups-that-criticized-the-government-ig-report-says/.

Now the The focus will now become whether or not IRS commissioner Doug Shulman knew about the questions when he testified that no Tea Party groups were being targeted.

I'll be honest... I really don't think "the higher ups" really knew about it or was "commanded by the powers that be" to do this. Otherwise... man, this is scary.

 sebster wrote:
I mean, move away from the Tea Party and just think about the GOP as a whole - most of them have problems with paying tax, so why not go after everyone on Grover Norquist's pledge?

Not that this is at all what you said, but I'd also like to point out it's a hell of a lot different to lobby for lower taxes then it is to break existing tax laws. For example when Warren Buffet was saying he'd like to raise taxes on his bracket and end some tax loopholes, people pointed out he himself used some loopholes and so was hence a hypocrite. Not so - there is nothing wrong with following the rules as written while simultaneously pointing out the rules could work better.

I think the Obama administration needs to go totally hardcore on this, like, today. A press conference, an investigation, and apology to those who were targeted - all that. I know they're worried about supplying the opposition with sound bites but, you know, they're not going to be on Team O no matter what you do so clean house as appropriate.

I have no reason to think otherwise then what has since been reported - this was some low level flunkies doing it on their own initiative. It matters not - the buck stops higher than that, if for no other reason than that for some reason the corporate culture at this office somehow made these guys feel empowered to do it.

Ouze wrote:

 sebster wrote:
I mean, move away from the Tea Party and just think about the GOP as a whole - most of them have problems with paying tax, so why not go after everyone on Grover Norquist's pledge?

Not that this is at all what you said, but I'd also like to point out it's a hell of a lot different to lobby for lower taxes then it is to break existing tax laws. For example when Warren Buffet was saying he'd like to raise taxes on his bracket and end some tax loopholes, people pointed out he himself used some loopholes and so was hence a hypocrite. Not so - there is nothing wrong with following the rules as written while simultaneously pointing out the rules could work better.

I think the Obama administration needs to go totally hardcore on this, like, today. A press conference, an investigation, and apology to those who were targeted - all that. I know they're worried about supplying the opposition with sound bites but, you know, they're not going to be on Team O no matter what you do so clean house as appropriate.

I have no reason to think otherwise then what has since been reported - this was some low level flunkies doing it on their own initiative. It matters not - the buck stops higher than that, if for no other reason than that for some reason the corporate culture at this office somehow made these guys feel empowered to do it.

I agree with this. All of it.

I understand why the IRS would do such a thing: it's like when dealing with police, if you walk up and mouth off, they're gonna taze you and make an example of it because they cannot be seen to be in a position of lesser strength on the street. With the IRS, I suspect the mentality may have been similar- try to make an example of those whom they perceive to be challenging their authority. Now, this does not make it okay in either circumstance; I'm just sayin' that I think I understand the mentality behind it.

woah, woah...

I'm reading ABC's site on this and reported IG report...

o.O

Clearly, this wasn’t just a few rogue agents going off on their own... Allegedly, as far back as three years ago (2010?), two different IRS units were coordinating efforts and raising questions for management to answer. Managers made decisions about the effort to pursue Tea Party groups as early as April 2010.

This looks like a very deliberate and systematic effort to target the Obama administration’s critics for IRS abuse.



That's all kinds of messed up.
EDIT:
heh... saw this on twittah:

@edmorrissey In Mar2010, IRS began targeting TEA Partiers, who opposed ObamaCare, which was signed into law Mar2010. #NotACoincidence

— Lance Salyers (@lancesalyers) May 13, 2013
@lancesalyers @edmorrissey How convenient, because the IRS has a role in ENFORCING Obamacare.

 whembly wrote:
woah, woah...

I'm reading ABC's site on this and reported IG report...

o.O

Clearly, this wasn’t just a few rogue agents going off on their own... Allegedly, as far back as three years ago (2010?), two different IRS units were coordinating efforts and raising questions for management to answer. Managers made decisions about the effort to pursue Tea Party groups as early as April 2010.

This looks like a very deliberate and systematic effort to target the Obama administration’s critics for IRS abuse.



That's all kinds of messed up.

If that is the case then a few subpoenas should be able to provide firm evidence from minutes of meetings, emails, letters etc. In a lot of cases nothing happens in a government body without a paper trail.

whembly wrote:This looks like a very deliberate and systematic effort to target the Obama administration’s critics for IRS abuse.

I'm not so sure you should be ascribing motivation so freely. For all you know, Tea Partiers were targeted due to their allegiance to the Koch brothers or any other reason, rather than their criticisms of Obama. I think you should get some more facts before assuming you understand the why of it.

Don't mind him, he just sees the socialist behind every tree

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Any group linked to politics should be looked at in microscopic detail, then probably put into jail anyway on general principles.

I concur, but only if we start jailing politicians with them. If we're going to toss people in the cooler on lock up, might as well start with the big rats.


I have to say the scope of this incident is looking to be quite... impressive. Be interesting to see what all shakes loose from this.

 azazel the cat wrote:

whembly wrote:This looks like a very deliberate and systematic effort to target the Obama administration’s critics for IRS abuse.

I'm not so sure you should be ascribing motivation so freely. For all you know, Tea Partiers were targeted due to their allegiance to the Koch brothers or .

And?
Specifically targetting groups for political reasons is what most First world countries call 'bad."