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Thanks for the tips guys, I edited my first post with more information to help.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
Haven't had a 1v1 yet, perhaps it's just dice roll luck and my more experienced opposition instead of just my tactics?

TBH I don't know then. You'll almost certainly do better with Vendettas because of how powerful they are, but without knowing how the rest of your team did and what lists they used it's hard to say how to fix your own problems, or if you even have any problems. And since you aren't playing consistently with the same people on your team you can't even plan a strategy together. If you're going to continue to play team games instead of 1v1 the best thing you can do is just focus on bringing the most powerful list possible and hope your ally doesn't fail too badly. And focusing on the best things that IG can bring means Vendettas. For example:

HQ:
Primaris psyker (just because it's cheap)

Troops:
Vets, 3x melta
Vets, 3x melta

Fast:
Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy:
LR Demolisher
LR Demolisher

Total: 990

It's a safe assumption that your allies will be better than you at holding objectives (not much is worse than mech IG), so you can safely leave the troops spam to them and focus on bringing overwhelming efficient firepower.

 Peregrine wrote:

Pure Chimera spam is dead.

No it's not. You've been suggesting people simply play WAAC vendetta spam lists on these forums for ages. I can only imagine how many new guard players have been put off by this "advice".

Okay, seeing the new addition I think the OP is making much ado about nothing. Four games isn't much to base things on, much less if you're playing team games, especially if we're talking about new players against veterans.

Your list is fine, you probably just need more practice.

Gonna agree with Peregrine and say Chimera spam is dead especially against Necrons with all the tesla and arcs. Lower points they're scary, but if you bring a decent amount of AT and stay back you should kill most of them before they get to you. AV10 side armor is pretty easy to get if they're gunning right for you. If they're not charging you, pick them off. S4 explosions of T3 dudes with tshirt saves hurts.

I wouldn't be that guy dropping 200 bucks on Vendettas and drastically changing your LGS meta though. Nobody likes that guy.

IG shine in low point games, you can get a lot of armor and infantry saturation. And like Ailaros said, 4 games isn't a whole lot to judge from. Your dice might have been mad at you. Mix up your list, try a blob squad, twin link your lascannons to get at those Scythes.

Edit: Your orders are huge. You can use dig in on a squad in area terrain for a 3+ or 2+? Don't remember exactly, but that's insane on a blob squad. Then use Get Back in the Fight next turn.

The necron player is rarely ever there more then twice a month, I just had the luck to finally meet him. Most of the other players have SM (and their variants), IG, Chaos and one guy has elves and Orks I believe. At least one of the IG players has vendettas. Also my army is suppose to be a TAC for casual games (perhaps I should mention this to my opponent before a game). This is because A). I don't have to much extra money every month, so I can get about one or two things. B). I really hate PVP (video)games, but I really do enjoy a good casual game where we can just both laugh as we trade wounds.

A little off topic; I was toying with the idea of removing a vet squad and replacing them with a 8 man (plus overseer) Psyker Battle squad w/chimera to see how they play. For me, Fun is priority one, victory second.

O without a doubt have fun sir. It's your game, your models, your time painting and playing. I'd just tell your opponents what's up. You're trying to have fun, could you please not use X model because I don't have any effective counter to it. Unless he / she is a total jerk they should be cool about it.

This is a game, so there is always some competition, and nobody likes losing. Ask if he has a crazy list he wants to play or wants to proxy in and try something out. I'm sure they'll be accomodating.

You ever get the feeling that Peregrine is a Game-Workshop pawn out to sell as many vendettas as possible setting up for a flier crash and burn in 7th edition? No, me neither.

Peregrine is merely taking a simple to-the-point approach to answering the necron-flier problem. Vendettas. His answer is different, but that should not interfere with your answer.

Though in my opinion, if one army is taking fliers and that one army is the only problem, then just take a few more heavy weapons. A hydra will be rendered negligible against the other armies, doing zilch better than a normal HWS could. You are an IG player, you are bound to have enough shots to shoot down a couple fliers after 2-3 turns at the most. Utilize this guard tool to your advantage. Tailoring your list to one army and ignoring the others is not a good move IMHO.

For fun? Take a squad of stormtroopers and feel cool as they run around like a bunch of Republic Commandoes. Or take ogryns and bullet-speed them to the enemy in a chimera. Take some Last Chancers (penal boys). Take a Primaris psyker to lead the psyker battle squad, have a sweet psyker retinue. Take Marbo. The list of options goes on. The ones that do not seem fun at first? Add fluff to their gameplay and strategy-choices, changes everything. (Tanith=take care of your troops, they are not expendable. Cadian=screw your troops to hell. Landraider? Stuff a platoon in its gun barrels!)

< taken by the void dragon >

 Che-Vito wrote:
I don't agree with Peregrine simply because I question how often he plays. In his world, Flyers always have access to side armor...among other things.

Seriously, put a Chimera on the table and line up the shots. If you're actually playing strictly by the rules (and not being very generous with what is considered front armor) it's very easy to get a flyer into side arc. Careful use of terrain can sometimes block it (though it's very hard with a Hydra since it's a tall model) and hammer and anvil deployment (if you use it) can cut off a lot of options for the flyer, but it's ridiculously optimistic to count on Hydras taking shots on front armor.

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Tailoring your list to one army and ignoring the others is not a good move IMHO.

That's exactly why I suggest Vendettas: they're great in a TAC list and give the necessary flyer counter without tailoring and giving up effectiveness against other lists.

< taken by the void dragon >

Doesn't the tesla destructor have the tesla rule (not sure I haven't played as necrons for a few years). If it has tesla it gets 3 hits on a roll to hit of 6 is that right? If the necron player is spamming them they should get one out of luck after awhile.

 Che-Vito wrote:
The Tesla Destructor averages 5.333 hits with only 4 shots. Right.

Maybe you should read the rules for tesla weapons before you participate in this kind of argument? If you had you would have found that tesla weapons give an automatic +2 hits whenever you roll a 6, so a BS 4 tesla weapon will average one hit per shot, while a twin-linked one will average 1.333 hits per shot.

I won't address the 'imagined moral high ground' argument, more than to simply say that I think creativity speaks more than a cookie-cutter list.

That assumes that the purpose of building a list is to show off how creative you can be rather than to win the game.

I'm not exactly sure about this Tesla Destructor stuff... I mean, IIRC the OP has/had problems with Doom Scythes that shoot S10 AP1 auto-hit beams... And Death Rays are pretty wicked when it comes to alpha strike Chimeras.

To the OP:
After some thinking, I came up with the following list:
- Company Command Squad (4x sniper rifles)
- Infantry Platoon
-- Command Squad (2x flamers, 2x meltaguns)
-- Infantry Squad (lascannon, plasma gun)
-- Infantry Squad (lascannon, plasma gun)
- Veteran Squad (3x plasma guns)
- Vendetta
- Vendetta
- Leman Russ Demolisher
- Manticore

You should try this out, it is exactly 1000 points and includes everything you need as an IG player.

Sniper rifles just aren't any good though. I keep trying to use them and they are of negligible value. Probably better off giving the meltas to the ccs and adding more flamers to the bs3 pcs.

 RegulusBlack wrote:
Vendetta's are a good to great unit but have drawbacks.

you have a maximum of 4 turns in a 5 turn game.
allying with anyone that can affect reserve rolls (guard CCS) makes your Vendetta's much weaker. if against warlord trait that affects reserves, might not get them in at all.
even if you take 3 vendetta's (approx 20% of a 2k list) thats only 3 vehicles that "usually" arrive sporadically.
even with BS3 twin linked you are only hitting 4-5 times out of 6 shots (with my luck it was 3 shots ), you can count on some getting through but even against AV12 they arent automatic killers, vs. hordes they are abyssmal
tactically "always going second" seems a bit trite when dealing with other flier armies.
New Tau can eat a flier army for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
positioning/angling for maximum effective attacks can be a bit cumbersome as the models take up a lot of room.
i have found 1st-2nd turn shooting makes a world of differnece in guard (game is usually won there) with Vens possibly out for those critical turns things can turn nasty quick.

(2) Hydra's (1 with camo) behind a quad gun give them as much survivability as 2 Vens for almost the same cost, and they are on the field turn 1.
Hydra can zap those pesky FMC much better than a Vendetta (volume of fire vs. inv save) point for point, and if you get necron focusing on hydra's for a turn thats usually only 2 turns remaining of getting shot at by other stuff.
Hydra's destroy Skimmers.

personal opinion, i switched from vendetta's (3) to flamer tanks and Hydra's (Tau are wrecking me), i believe the loss of Scout severley hurt the way i played my plasma/melta airborne ranger units, a flanking vehicle that drops its payload litterally anywhere on the field and killy troops to zap whatever you need was what made the Vendetta primo.

Hydra's are not "better" they just do the job differently.

If you need to get troops deployed for maximum effectiveness, Drop Pod GH work much better than Vendetta grunts.

Name a single horde army that doesn't have an AV14 vehicle (COUGH ORKS), big, killy MCs (COUGH TYRANIDS) or some nice tank squadrons to crack (COUGH IMPERIAL GUARD). There's no such thing as an army without heavy support, if they don't have it, they'll lose anyway. In my opinion, Vendettas are much better than Hydras because they're harder to kill, have a transport capacity, and have 3 TL Lascannons! What's there to not want?? And, if you're worried about hordes then give them missiles.. -_- And I think Vendettas are worth the wait to be honest, as they'll be coming on around the same time your opponent's flyers will (and even if its a turn later, flyers are just hard to kill, they're not normally heavy-hitters), and, if all else fails... THEN TAKE AN AEGIS DEFENSE LINE. I don't understand why people never take these for anti-air in an Imperial Guard army, they provide a neat cover save for your tanks and artillery, and they can shoot down aircraft! What's not to like? Well, just a few tips from a long-time Imperial Guard player..

< taken by the void dragon >

Peregrine wrote:That assumes that the purpose of building a list is to show off how creative you can be rather than to win the game.

The purpose of a list is to give you the tools to enact whatever you're looking for from a game of 40k.

If you have exactly only one reason for playing a game of 40k - to win - and no other reason whatsoever, then yes, the point of list building is to win you games. Most people, though, have a plurality of things they're looking for from 40k, and so what they're looking for from lists is going to be rather more complicated.

In any case, if the OP just wanted to win games, then he shouldn't start by up-powering his guard list, he should start by dumping imperial guard for a stronger army, like necron. Furthermore, if all he wanted to do was to win games, then he should stop playing 40k entirely, as any game that's based on rolling dice is invariably going to cause you to lose games, regardless of skill level. He really should pick up chess or something else.

But instead, he's wanting to play 40k. And he's wanting to do it with imperial guard. And he's wanting to do it vaguely in one kind of play style. And to do it with a bunch of other restrictions. All of this nuance and complexity is something that's got to be taken into account, rather than simply saying "the problem you're having is that you're different from me".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:
The Tesla Destructor averages 5.333 hits with only 4 shots. Right.

Maybe you should read the rules for tesla weapons before you participate in this kind of argument? If you had you would have found that tesla weapons give an automatic +2 hits whenever you roll a 6, so a BS 4 tesla weapon will average one hit per shot, while a twin-linked one will average 1.333 hits per shot.

I won't address the 'imagined moral high ground' argument, more than to simply say that I think creativity speaks more than a cookie-cutter list.

That assumes that the purpose of building a list is to show off how creative you can be rather than to win the game.

Your posts tend to come off as sounding like a jerk in these discussions a lot of the time, even if the information you post is quite useful. Maybe that's part of the problem and why people get heated if this goes on too long? I mean you have good stuff, and I've used a few of your tips before, but it sounds a tad bit cocky at points.

Anyway, if you have a theme I'd go with that. Don't force yourself to break theme just because everyone suggests to get this one model, unless you want to of course. If you want to stick to a mech theme but get some AA in, use Hydras. Yeah yeah whatever they may not be the utmost great unit in the codex anymore, and the Vendetta does outshine it, but it's your game. And as you said, you are here to have fun (on a low budget as you also said) so just get what you think looks good and does a purpose. If you think the Vendetta looks cool and you are okay with breaking the mech theme a bit, go ahead. If you don't want to break mech theme, but still want something that has AA, go with a Hydra. People tend to post biased scenarios and things on the internet, and while most of it is good stuff, don't let it completely make you change your army around if you are happy with where you are going.

tl;dr: Practice a bit more with what you have, and after a while (more than 5 games) if you still feel like you are losing too much change things up. If you want a mech theme, stick to that. They are your models and your army, and if you want it that way then don't let others convince you against it because it may not be the statistically best build (just be prepared because of that). Vendettas are useful, very useful, but don't feel like you need to shoehorn them in since you don't seem to have too huge an issue with flier armys in your meta (but, the extra AT is always helpful).

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:
The Tesla Destructor averages 5.333 hits with only 4 shots. Right.

Maybe you should read the rules for tesla weapons before you participate in this kind of argument? If you had you would have found that tesla weapons give an automatic +2 hits whenever you roll a 6, so a BS 4 tesla weapon will average one hit per shot, while a twin-linked one will average 1.333 hits per shot.

Ah, very correct. And while I did miss that, again...the attitude dude. Would it kill you to post like a real person on occasion?

I'd find it easier to communicate with Peregrine if they could try. Apparently it's too hard to sound normal and look down on the world at the same time....

You're the only person I know who can say something like this...

 Che-Vito wrote:
The Tesla Destructor averages 5.333 hits with only 4 shots. Right.

...and claim that the person you're talking to has an attitude problem.

You have apologized for neither your error nor your sarcasm, and even when he takes the time to explain how the rule works with twin-linking, you have the gall to suggest that he's the one with the problem.

The only thing he's said that could even be construed as impolite was his suggestion that you inform yourself before making an argument. Considering the attitude he received earlier...

 Che-Vito wrote:
In his world, Flyers always have access to side armor...among other things.

...and the ignorant reply you had made, it was frankly justified.

And yes, fliers with 24" weapons DO get to hit on side armor their first turn. They can move 36", which leaves 12" between them and the board edge. A chimera is about 5" long. 12-5 = 7, so that creates a right triangle with 7" side and 24" hypotenuse. The arccos(7/24) = 73 degrees, which based on Euclid's transversal theorems is congruent to the angle of with which the Tesla Destructor strikes the Chimera. On a square hull, this angle would need to be greater than 45 degrees to hit side armor. Not only is 73 degrees more than sufficient, but the Hydra is longer on its side armor than on its front.

While there are lots of different ways to play this game and list building ultimately reflects that, this is a tactics forum. It exists to offer advice on how best to win games. If the OP wants to outline some parameters for what's acceptable, fine. Budget constraints are a common example of this. But in the absence of such constraints, the only criteria we have to evaluate unit selections is their likelihood to contribute to victory. And so that's what Peregrine has chosen to discuss.

There's something to be said about making a point, or giving advise, in a way that doesn't crap all over the head of the person asking, or others giving a different point of view.

Again, thank you all for your advice. I didn't mean to start up an argument about the stats and such, so my bad. I wasn't looking to really augment my army at this point, but was wondering if there was any Battle Field tactic ideas (besides hiding behind rocks) for my current list. Things experienced players have picked up over the years that could give me higher chance of survival or catchin' my enemies off guard.

I'm not about stathammer. When it comes to dice rolls I'm an optimist. I don't mind changing up my list, and this current one was made just to give me a decent (60%-70%) chance of victory against different armies. Before this list, I was a bit all over the place, and so I chose to focus my army Mech-wise.

 alarmingrick wrote:
There's something to be said about making a point, or giving advise, in a way that doesn't crap all over the head of the person asking, or others giving a different point of view.

Just as there is something to be said for doing the necessary research to bring accurate information to a public forum and having the grace to accept legitimate criticism when it arises.

I really don't get where you're coming from with this. Peregrine has done nothing but give patient and practiced suggestions (including several complete army lists) based on what he feels will make the OP successful against the armies mentioned. When someone disputed his arguments, he directed them to look at the necessary resources which would explain his position. In the first case, it was simple board geometry. In the second case, it was the Necron Codex. And both times, that person chose to ridicule him instead of consulting the referenced material.

He really doesn't deserve the heat he's gotten in this thread. And while his comments can sometimes be a bit repetitive, that's the nature of a game that only updates 20% of its product line each year.

I think Peregrine is a girl guys.

Back on topic, a ccs can take an astropath to mess with reserve rolls. Then slap in am aegis with coms relay and you have some pretty good control over reserves both ways.

For you specific list you should really try some singles games as this will help you gauge what your can do better and get a feel for your own play style without every game having a positive or negative handicap based on the teammate.

Other than that. Mech-vets give up durability and some firepower for superior mobility.

Mech-vets are usually a sub 18" army. This means they do most of their damage by moving 6" then firing within 12" of an enemy. If you are willing to get some plasma guns then you should really consider swapping out some of your melta to plasma for the additional flexibility that a 24" rapid fire has over a 12" assault 1 weapon.

Your movement needs to be situation dependent. This means against some armies (Tau) getting a cover save means nothing and you are much better served by just closing within your range as quickly as possible. Against other armies (orks, melee lists) cover is a secondary concern to just ensuring you do not get charged.

Your list is a little light on serious firepower. I would recommend a manticore if you do not have a desire for a vendetta. If you like the vendetta then think about getting one and swapping some of your melta to flamers. Most horde armies will be a up hill battle for your current list.

And the #1 IG pointer is that there are no IG units that are not sacrificial if it achieves victory. Do not be afraid to empty a transport on an objective, tank shock a nearby enemy unit to block line of sight even though the space marines will punch it to death next turn as long as it buys the time needed to capture the objective.

Honestly I am not sure why you are attacking Peregrine here. As far as I remember Peregrine only provided useful information and did not directly state any insults. You cannot here Peregrine's voice so any implied insult is probably imagined.

Thank you corrolax for doing the math. I was going to do it myself but got interrupted.

@Wingeds I don't think it actually matters as everyone is either a boy or girl depending on the wedsite. I doubt Peregrine cares if what we call Falco peregrinus as long as it is not derogatory. Now if I am wrong please inform me and I will endeavor to comply...just no great majesty Peregrine the beneficent please.

That's a really nice summary, Ansacs. I'm not sure I have anything to add except an inspired "For the Emprah!"

I'm glad I was able to help a bit with the math, though if I stole the opportunity from you, I apologize. It's something of a rarity to be able to apply math to issues of model/table dimension, so I hope I did it justice!

My understanding is that Peregrine hasn't answered one way or the other with respect to gender. Gender-neutral pronouns in English are rather awkward, so I used the admittedly imperfect universal "he" convention. If I were writing about abstract entities, I'd probably alternate my pronouns. But that doesn't really make sense when talking about an actual person. In any case, I'll use the requested pronoun just as soon as it's made evident.

Corollax wrote:
That's a really nice summary, Ansacs. I'm not sure I have anything to add except an inspired "For the Emprah!"

I'm glad I was able to help a bit with the math, though if I stole the opportunity from you, I apologize. It's something of a rarity to be able to apply math to issues of model/table dimension, so I hope I did it justice!

My understanding is that Peregrine hasn't answered one way or the other with respect to gender. Gender-neutral pronouns in English are rather awkward, so I used the admittedly imperfect universal "he" convention. If I were writing about abstract entities, I'd probably alternate my pronouns. But that doesn't really make sense when talking about an actual person. In any case, I'll use the requested pronoun just as soon as it's made evident.

Not interrupted by you but by life. You did a great job though so it saved me the effort.

One of the weird things about the current 40k playstyle seems to be small, highly elite armies being nearly the only 'viable' choice. You don't often see more than forty, fifty models on the table. Guard is a super style-based army (dying gloriously for the emperor and all that), but they don't have the ability to really compete properly at the elite level unless you rock flyer spam which I don't like either. I've always played Guard to get a ton of boots on the table, and sheer volume of fire a ton of saves forced on those elite choices. It might work a little better that way for you too. Mech lists in my experience are fragile unless you run a pretty absurd number of Russ tanks. Playing IG for over a decade I'd recommend trying your choice of a couple of options:

1)Add more scoring units on foot to camp out and/or force the opponent to play your game. Tanks and infantry work best in support of one another. If you aren't 100% set on full mech, try an infantry platoon, borrow one from a friend if need be. Autocannons, HB or missile launchers and meltas or flamers. Vendettas and most elite stuff make an IG platoon laugh with their fancy pants nonsense. "We ALREADY die to every shot, chump! Bring it on! We eat bullets while those other guys run to the objective."

2)Exterminators with HB sponsons, hull HB and Exterminator Cannons don't suck. Try them out and see if they work for you, I've been surprised. They function quite well in TAC lists. Again, forcing armor saves. Similarly, I find The straight-up Hellhounds to be remarkably effective, and they dwell in the FA slot, as well as being mech-style.

I guess to me it matters little what gets placed in opposition to your forces if you either don't worry/care about it in the tactical sense, or chew it to pieces by causing more wounds than can be dealt with. The army I see you playing has a lot of style, but is not a tough nut for the elite army to crack- you're playing their game, and at a disadvantage.

Hope that helps in some way. My two cents is "Don't Join 'em, TABLE 'em with your 'inferior' list."

I run vets in chimeras in every list and I have one suggestion: Don't get out too early. I have had problems with jumping the vets out the first chance I got and not having any scoring units left in the late turns. They are not eldar fire dragons, you actually want them to stick around.

Also, some feedback I received on a battle report I posted was to not spread out the tank line. If you concentrate your force in an area and dominate it, you might not get picked apart. A lot of armies think twice before charging into a parking lot.