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I've been trying to think of a use for this guy, and I think I got one.
Take ~30 white lions.
Deploy 3 wide and 10 deep, on your flank.

Attach Sea Helm, and Arch Mage (because it's an awesome bunker).
If you get hit in the front, you get 7 S6 attacks from the white lions, and support from the helm and the arch mage.
If you get hit in the flank, you can sea helm reform to turn and face.

OR, you can use the sea helms ability and after the opponent has finished his charge move, you combat reform, going wide enough to leave the arch mage out of the fight.
This should put you in horde formation with 30 S6 attacks.

It seems like a really effective way to both bunker an arch mage and hold down your flank.

You could even add a 2nd sea helm with the stubborn crown and a unit of swordmasters. Covers both flanks with reforming bad asses.

-Matt

Yeah, this is basically what you should be using Sea Helms as: a way to ensure your massive bunker/deathstar isn't flanked. I'd still only take him for this if he was my BSB though.

And you can fit in the Crown of Command and the Shield of the Merwyrm into his Magic Points allowance. Gives Stubborn to a unit of Swordmasters/Pheonix Guard and you get a 4+ Ward too.

 The Shadow wrote:
And you can fit in the Crown of Command and the Shield of the Merwyrm into his Magic Points allowance. Gives Stubborn to a unit of Swordmasters/Pheonix Guard and you get a 4+ Ward too.

Only a 4+ parry save. The Skycutter gives him the 4+ ward.

you have look out sir for shooting so the 4+ ward from the parry is all you really need.

Lellindil wrote:
you have look out sir for shooting so the 4+ ward from the parry is all you really need.

Unless you face impact hits, stomps, breathe weapons ect...

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Lellindil wrote:
you have look out sir for shooting so the 4+ ward from the parry is all you really need.

Unless you face impact hits, stomps, breathe weapons ect...

-Matt

Which are all distributed as a shooting attacks.

I dont buy into the Sea Helm buzz. He is a combat hero with reduced equipment options and a stupid choice for a mount at +30pts.

I wish he had some command rules to go with his sky chariot, a 4+ ward save which doesnt work in melee is no compensation for something so fragile and expensive.

Anyway back to the only thing he offers: Naval Discipline.

Combat reform is of marginal use, please remember that you cannot move any model on either side, out of combat.

So if a canny opponent flank charges you it pays to charge into your front or rear also with anything able to pin the unit in place. The the enemy model cannot be taken out of combat you have to reform into a formation to account for it, so a model on the opposite end of the front rank must still be in contact, so to reform you will have to extend the ranks to meet it, unless you are in a square block you run risk of having to extend ranks further than you can have a rank bonus for.

A better idea is not to let your bunker get flanked, in the vast majority of cases if the main block is being flanked it is also being sandwiched and thus the opponent can make moves to neutralise the benefit for the free combat reform.

The Sea Helm costs too much to be allocated to a supporting, so all in all I am not impressed. The model is nice though.

thelordcal wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Lellindil wrote:
you have look out sir for shooting so the 4+ ward from the parry is all you really need.

Unless you face impact hits, stomps, breathe weapons ect...

-Matt

Which are all distributed as a shooting attacks.

Not in a challenge.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:
I dont buy into the Sea Helm buzz.
Anyway back to the only thing he offers: Naval Discipline.

Combat reform is of marginal use, please remember that you cannot move any model on either side, out of combat.
So if a canny opponent flank charges you it pays to charge into your front or rear also with anything able to pin the unit in place. The the enemy model cannot be taken out of combat you have to reform into a formation to account for it, so a model on the opposite end of the front rank must still be in contact, so to reform you will have to extend the ranks to meet it, unless you are in a square block you run risk of having to extend ranks further than you can have a rank bonus for.

If you get charged from two sides, you cannot use Naval Discipline at all. You can only combat reform if engaged to one side.
Give the sea helm the stubborn crown, attack to swordmasters.

As I posted, the best use for him seems to be in white lions, hiding a wizard.
If they get hit in two sides, they will be throwing 9 S5 attacks forward and ~18 S5 attacks to the flank. If they lose combat, they're steadfast until killed to the last man. At some point, help will arrive.
If they get hit in the front, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.
If they get hit in the flank, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.

The narrow front makes it much easier to get a charge off and move through terrain.
Stubborn lets you lose on the charge (which you may still win) and reform into whatever works best.

-Matt

Agreed Matt he is most useful as a BSB in a large deathstar with BOTWD however most people wouldn't run that list type anyway so he is rather underwhelming.

Its kinda the same thing with the anointed on phoenix it makes absolutely no sense to do for a +1 on the get back up chart

thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
And you can fit in the Crown of Command and the Shield of the Merwyrm into his Magic Points allowance. Gives Stubborn to a unit of Swordmasters/Pheonix Guard and you get a 4+ Ward too.

Only a 4+ parry save. The Skycutter gives him the 4+ ward.

He'll be in a unit (well, should be anyway) if he's on foot, so 4+ Parry is basically a 4+ Ward. Unless....

HawaiiMatt wrote:

thelordcal wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Lellindil wrote:
you have look out sir for shooting so the 4+ ward from the parry is all you really need.

Unless you face impact hits, stomps, breathe weapons ect...

-Matt

Which are all distributed as a shooting attacks.

Not in a challenge.

-Matt

... like Matt says and he's an a challenge. But, considering this guy will always be my BSB if he's in my list, I won't be accepting challenges with him anyway. At least nothing mean enough to have stomp and/or impact hits and/or a breath weapon. Not that I think there's anything that has all three. Firebelly? That's it?

Impact hits take place before a challenge is made. Stomp, Thunderstomp and breathe would all hit the model in the challenge.
As for declining, you can't decline forever if you want to keep your re-rolls.

-Matt

if you are unengaged and charged by 2 units, one to the flank and the other in the front. Would you be able to do the combat reform before the 2nd unit rolls its charge distance but after the first already successfully charges you? When exactly does the combat reform occur?

also you can still use the bsb's reroll even if he refused a challenge, the only time you can't is if he is fleeing.

so a bsb with crown of command that refuses a challenge still makes his unit stubborn with a reroll they just can't use his leadership.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you get charged from two sides, you cannot use Naval Discipline at all. You can only combat reform if engaged to one side.
Give the sea helm the stubborn crown, attack to swordmasters.

So, as said, all you need to do is throw some chaff in and combat reform is neutralised. The bigger the unit the easier to do, the smaller the unit the bigger the waste.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

As I posted, the best use for him seems to be in white lions, hiding a wizard.
If they get hit in two sides, they will be throwing 9 S5 attacks forward and ~18 S5 attacks to the flank. If they lose combat, they're steadfast until killed to the last man. At some point, help will arrive.
If they get hit in the front, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.
If they get hit in the flank, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.

It doesn't work like that. If the enemy bases the wizard then the wizard has to fight, you cannot take a model out of a fight friend or foe. Page 55.
So the wizard either was safe to begin with, or he wasn't, combat reform doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

The narrow front makes it much easier to get a charge off and move through terrain.
Stubborn lets you lose on the charge (which you may still win) and reform into whatever works best.

You can use combat reform to widen a formation when you charge after the charge hits home. But is that worth a 100pt hero character, frankly I doubt it. You must also be careful not to get into contact with a unit you didnt legally charge, which again makes it easier to counter if the opponent sees you have a large unit with Sea Helm in it. The killer is that if the abilities of the character were part of a 'Sea Helm' 30pt item to give to a hero you could surprise someone with the reform move, as it is everyone will see it coming.

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you get charged from two sides, you cannot use Naval Discipline at all. You can only combat reform if engaged to one side.
Give the sea helm the stubborn crown, attack to swordmasters.

So, as said, all you need to do is throw some chaff in and combat reform is neutralised. The bigger the unit the easier to do, the smaller the unit the bigger the waste.

Chaff may be killed by the 9 attacks to the front. It would be killed by the ~18 attacks to the side. It's not so easy to hold swordmasters in place with chaff, and going into the flank is still taking a lot of attacks.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

As I posted, the best use for him seems to be in white lions, hiding a wizard.
If they get hit in two sides, they will be throwing 9 S5 attacks forward and ~18 S5 attacks to the flank. If they lose combat, they're steadfast until killed to the last man. At some point, help will arrive.
If they get hit in the front, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.
If they get hit in the flank, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.

It doesn't work like that. If the enemy bases the wizard then the wizard has to fight, you cannot take a model out of a fight friend or foe. Page 55.
So the wizard either was safe to begin with, or he wasn't, combat reform doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

Deploying 3 wide, puts the wizard in the 2nd rank. You cannot base him. When you connect, I then combat reform, wider than you.
If you are 5 wide, I go 8 wide. 7 of my guys touch, 1 of my guys does not touch. The wizard is the none-touching model. Because the wizard wasn't in contact, it's legal.
So now I get 27 S5 attacks, instead of 9 attacks. If I started wide, you could just connect on the wizard on the charge.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

The narrow front makes it much easier to get a charge off and move through terrain.
Stubborn lets you lose on the charge (which you may still win) and reform into whatever works best.

You can use combat reform to widen a formation when you charge after the charge hits home. But is that worth a 100pt hero character, frankly I doubt it. You must also be careful not to get into contact with a unit you didnt legally charge, which again makes it easier to counter if the opponent sees you have a large unit with Sea Helm in it. The killer is that if the abilities of the character were part of a 'Sea Helm' 30pt item to give to a hero you could surprise someone with the reform move, as it is everyone will see it coming.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you get charged from two sides, you cannot use Naval Discipline at all. You can only combat reform if engaged to one side.
Give the sea helm the stubborn crown, attack to swordmasters.

So, as said, all you need to do is throw some chaff in and combat reform is neutralised. The bigger the unit the easier to do, the smaller the unit the bigger the waste.

Chaff may be killed by the 9 attacks to the front. It would be killed by the ~18 attacks to the side. It's not so easy to hold swordmasters in place with chaff, and going into the flank is still taking a lot of attacks.

Is your answer to suddenly turn the White Lions into Swordmasters?
Anyway even if they were swordmasters it may be worth sending in chaff to hold them in place so that the flank attack hits the flank. Especially with all that you are adding to the unit.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

As I posted, the best use for him seems to be in white lions, hiding a wizard.
If they get hit in two sides, they will be throwing 9 S5 attacks forward and ~18 S5 attacks to the flank. If they lose combat, they're steadfast until killed to the last man. At some point, help will arrive.
If they get hit in the front, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.
If they get hit in the flank, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.

It doesn't work like that. If the enemy bases the wizard then the wizard has to fight, you cannot take a model out of a fight friend or foe. Page 55.
So the wizard either was safe to begin with, or he wasn't, combat reform doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

Deploying 3 wide, puts the wizard in the 2nd rank. You cannot base him. When you connect, I then combat reform, wider than you.
If you are 5 wide, I go 8 wide. 7 of my guys touch, 1 of my guys does not touch. The wizard is the none-touching model. Because the wizard wasn't in contact, it's legal.
So now I get 27 S5 attacks, instead of 9 attacks. If I started wide, you could just connect on the wizard on the charge.

Worse and worse. You cant put the wizard in the second rank unless the first rank is full of characters. Page 97. How many characters are you putting in this unit?

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

The narrow front makes it much easier to get a charge off and move through terrain.
Stubborn lets you lose on the charge (which you may still win) and reform into whatever works best.

You can use combat reform to widen a formation when you charge after the charge hits home. But is that worth a 100pt hero character, frankly I doubt it. You must also be careful not to get into contact with a unit you didnt legally charge, which again makes it easier to counter if the opponent sees you have a large unit with Sea Helm in it. The killer is that if the abilities of the character were part of a 'Sea Helm' 30pt item to give to a hero you could surprise someone with the reform move, as it is everyone will see it coming.

I'm guessing you mean "Cannot". Which I wasn't planning on. I meant reform after the first round of combat. I do it all the time with my ghouls. I deploy 5 wide and 10 deep, and at the end of the first round, I reform into a horde. It's not 100 points for the ability. It's 30 points more on a BSB that I was going to take anyway.
-Matt

Correction, you cannot. Naval Discipline only works when charged. That's half the potential benefit gone Every unit can reform after a round of combat Naval Discipline allow combat reform before, with slender versatility and easy to negate circumstances. Not worth 30pts and a stat downgrade. You could make Naval Discipline a 15pt upgrade for a noble and I still probably not buy it.

The cannot is regarding to most other things you are trying to do like whisk wizards out of combat via combat reform.

Sea helm does have an amazing model though.

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you get charged from two sides, you cannot use Naval Discipline at all. You can only combat reform if engaged to one side.
Give the sea helm the stubborn crown, attack to swordmasters.

So, as said, all you need to do is throw some chaff in and combat reform is neutralised. The bigger the unit the easier to do, the smaller the unit the bigger the waste.

Chaff may be killed by the 9 attacks to the front. It would be killed by the ~18 attacks to the side. It's not so easy to hold swordmasters in place with chaff, and going into the flank is still taking a lot of attacks.

Is your answer to suddenly turn the White Lions into Swordmasters?
Anyway even if they were swordmasters it may be worth sending in chaff to hold them in place so that the flank attack hits the flank. Especially with all that you are adding to the unit.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

As I posted, the best use for him seems to be in white lions, hiding a wizard.
If they get hit in two sides, they will be throwing 9 S5 attacks forward and ~18 S5 attacks to the flank. If they lose combat, they're steadfast until killed to the last man. At some point, help will arrive.
If they get hit in the front, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.
If they get hit in the flank, they combat reform into a horde, leaving the wizard out of the fight.

It doesn't work like that. If the enemy bases the wizard then the wizard has to fight, you cannot take a model out of a fight friend or foe. Page 55.
So the wizard either was safe to begin with, or he wasn't, combat reform doesn't make the blindest bit of difference.

Deploying 3 wide, puts the wizard in the 2nd rank. You cannot base him. When you connect, I then combat reform, wider than you.
If you are 5 wide, I go 8 wide. 7 of my guys touch, 1 of my guys does not touch. The wizard is the none-touching model. Because the wizard wasn't in contact, it's legal.
So now I get 27 S5 attacks, instead of 9 attacks. If I started wide, you could just connect on the wizard on the charge.

Worse and worse. You cant put the wizard in the second rank unless the first rank is full of characters. Page 97. How many characters are you putting in this unit?

If he deploys 3 wide the command models will make up the first rank. If he then reforms the block into horde formation, the Wizard can avoid being in b2b by being placed at one of the edges.

 Orlanth wrote:


Correction, you cannot. Naval Discipline only works when charged. That's half the potential benefit gone Every unit can reform after a round of combat Naval Discipline allow combat reform before, with slender versatility and easy to negate circumstances. Not worth 30pts and a stat downgrade. You could make Naval Discipline a 15pt upgrade for a noble and I still probably not buy it.

The cannot is regarding to most other things you are trying to do like whisk wizards out of combat via combat reform.

I didn't say you can, you did. I was guessing you meant cannot, which I agreed with.
As I pointed out, I'm not whisking the wizard out of combat, I'm keeping him out of combat while bringing more of the rest of the unit into combat.
How many points would you pay for a 2+ ward save for a wizard in close combat? Because deploying 3 wide, then using Naval Discipline to put the wizard out of the fight is better than a 2+ ward. If you can't be hit, you don't need a ward save.

Yes, any unit can combat reform at the end of combat. If you want to give up a round of fighting in a less than ideal formation. For 30 points and 1 attack, you could reform before combat.
-Matt

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If he deploys 3 wide the command models will make up the first rank. If he then reforms the block into horde formation, the Wizard can avoid being in b2b by being placed at one of the edges.

I have to credit Hawaii Matt with more intelligence than that. If he offered an opponent such a gift all they need to is hit him with two units and prevent him from reforming, then he will have no ranks and his unit dies.

 Orlanth wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If he deploys 3 wide the command models will make up the first rank. If he then reforms the block into horde formation, the Wizard can avoid being in b2b by being placed at one of the edges.

I have to credit Hawaii Matt with more intelligence than that. If he offered an opponent such a gift all they need to is hit him with two units and prevent him from reforming, then he will have no ranks and his unit dies.

I thought of the idea with white lions (for stubborn) but realized it works better with a stubborn character and swordmasters.
Hitting swordmasters in the flank isn't always a great idea. I've learned from hitting chaos warriors in the flank (S5 Init 5 A2) that often I give up more combat res than I gain; especially when it is a fast flanking unit.
The tactical idea is to use the sea helm to hide a wizard, and still be able to combat reform (most of the time) to a better fighting position.
Not having rank bonus doesn't kill anyone but skaven. At worst, It's a stubborn 9 test. At best, it will pop 1 or 2 units when hit from two sides.


Another slightly less obvious use of the sea helm is to control your direction of flee.
When you break, you flee from my center. I pursue in the direction you break. I could use the sea helm to reform after being charged to shift where you flee, which shifts where I pursue.

-Matt

you only flee from the center of a unit when you flee while not in combat. fleeing from a combat means you flee directly away from the enemy unit perpendicular to the frontage.

heckler wrote:
you only flee from the center of a unit when you flee while not in combat. fleeing from a combat means you flee directly away from the enemy unit perpendicular to the frontage.

That's incorrect in 8th edition. The rule book shows a picture of a unit fleeing from combat and shows you the angle they flee in.

-Matt

bringing up the topic of the sample pictures doesn't aid either one of us in our debate. in all the pictures, they are fleeing from both the center of the unit and perpendicular to the combat frontage because they only show nice even blocks fighting each other.

you bring up a good point though. in both panic and fleeing from combat, the book talks about facing directly away from. the only indication that they are different is in the move fleeing unit section, the first paragraph says to turn around to face away from the victor.

i think that directly away from has different connotations in these separate instances. directly away due to a panic check will not lead to overlap of the units, and will not realistically lead to directly away not really being directly away.

in the case of fleeing from combat, one can devise a situation where the victorious unit has a wide frontage and the fleeing unit is off to one side only, the extreme case being the limit with an(effectively) infinitely long frontage with only the front rank:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------------------------oooooo-

where x is victor, o is fleeing unit and - are placeholders for space.
pivoting the fleeing unit away from center could not possibly qualify as facing directly away from the victor (it could qualify as directly away from the center, but that is not the wording).

but you have piqued my interest. i'd like to discuss this some more. i've checked the FAQ and found no amplifying information on the matter.

heckler wrote:
bringing up the topic of the sample pictures doesn't aid either one of us in our debate. in all the pictures, they are fleeing from both the center of the unit and perpendicular to the combat frontage because they only show nice even blocks fighting each other.

you bring up a good point though. in both panic and fleeing from combat, the book talks about facing directly away from. the only indication that they are different is in the move fleeing unit section, the first paragraph says to turn around to face away from the victor.

Read page 60 and 61. It shows a pursuit at an angle, and talks about fleeing units over lapping enemies as you pivot them to flee.

-Matt