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The title says it all so what do you guys think

the good
they can hold their own in melee without the need of a IC 3 attacks on the charge

the bad
it is 2 point per model that could be spent somewhere else

the ugly
2 points per model can go along way somewhere like combi weapons, or upgrades for your other toys

so tell me has it really ever come down to it where after a game you said / thought "whew would have lost it if i didnt have those extra CCW for my guys";

For the 18 points (because the Champion already has it). I'd rather buy the Champion a power weapon to help win in challenges.

If you want BP/Bolter/CCW, I'd rather go with Plague Marines who get an improved version with plague knives or Noise Marines who get the upgrade for cheaper and make better use of it with I5.

If you're buying the CCW you might as well do Khorne marks and maybe an Icon. Then the power weapon on a champ.

Sometimes I've wished I had the CCW, but that was when combat went poorly or I planned poorly. CSM are nice that you can focus them on one task, but when you try to make them Master of All Trades, they get pricey quick. And it's very rare you'll get all the points worth of all your upgrades. Keep a unit simple and at task. Make your points back.

I feel this is very situational. I always give the extra CCW to the unit of CSM I infiltrate with Huron Blackheart since I know they will definitely be getting into swinging range. Otherwise I usually spend the points elsewhere.

I run Extra CCW on my blobs of 20 CSM. I replace their bolters so I get it for free. They aren't going to be shooting anyway, they'll be running every turn.

I don't think it's worth it to put "Ubergrit" on normal sized CSM size 10 or less. The amount of points spent versus the benefit gained is too small. We've been given a blessing in being able to customize our CSM for the task at hand. If we want em shooty we leave the CCW at home. If we want em assaulty we leave the bolter at home. It depends heavily on what you're using your CSM for. If you want backfield objective campers you should pass on the CCW. If your squad is moving up full bore in a rhino trying to take forward objectives then it may not be so bad paying for that extra attack, and that extra bit of dissuasion.

Not worth it for the stock standard marines, IMO. Chances are you'll be better off keeping them cheap and spamming them as objective holders, or assault specialists replacing the bolters with CCWs, or just forking over the points for cult troops (plague marines and noise marines specifically). That said, when you don't have the extra CCW you certainly feel their absence.

 MMJ24 wrote:
The title says it all so what do you guys think
the good
they can hold their own in melee without the need of a IC 3 attacks on the charge
the bad
it is 2 point per model that could be spent somewhere else
the ugly
2 points per model can go along way somewhere like combi weapons, or upgrades for your other toys
so tell me has it really ever come down to it where after a game you said / thought "whew would have lost it if i didnt have those extra CCW for my guys";

You can mix and match. For 10 marines, I would spend 2-6 points giving some guys extra CC weapons. You dont need all 10(9 regular guys) to have it. The champion and 2 guys having extra while one guy swaps his bolter for a CCW and pistol gives you 8 bolter shots, and 4 CCW. So 15 attacks off charge, 25 on charge.

I think it was a real silly move to make their CCW twice as expensive as Noise Marines.

Especially considering they were a default choice in the last codex.

Where is the maybe? Because to me it depends on what I want that unit to do. I don't view it as an "auto-include".

I like em on close range squads. It helps your csm be more comfortable in 12 inch rapid fire range since less can best them in cc- especially with MoK. The extra attacks often open up a lot of possibilities. Its not about charging all the time its about adding extra pressure in rapid fire range.

I'm supprized this poll is so tied. I rarely use plain CSM (rather do cult marines or cultist blobs) but when I do they are for shooting. If they get in close combat I have plenty of other things going on but they were ment to shoot not be locked up so they are no longer a tactical asset.

I buy them for my CSM for two reasons. First, I modelled too many of them to have CCWs, and I had no intention of redoing them. Second, it is a nice surprise whdn opponents forget or didn't realize fhey have them and assault.

Exalbaru wrote:
I'm supprized this poll is so tied. I rarely use plain CSM (rather do cult marines or cultist blobs) but when I do they are for shooting. If they get in close combat I have plenty of other things going on but they were ment to shoot not be locked up so they are no longer a tactical asset.

Same. Not saying I don't want to give them back their ubergrit, but it's just too expensive for me.

Even with a single attack, they'll still likely win against your average Tau, IG or equivalent.

Interesting how the grass seems greener. I'd really like to have this option for Astartes marines. Tactical marines single attack in CC is one of their big liabilities. This is also part of the magic combination that makes Grey Hunters insane.

I'd also love the option to make my standard troops init 5 with CCW. Not on every squad, but it would be nice to be able to do it.

Martel732 wrote:
Interesting how the grass seems greener. I'd really like to have this option for Astartes marines. Tactical marines single attack in CC is one of their big liabilities. This is also part of the magic combination that makes Grey Hunters insane.

I'd also love the option to make my standard troops init 5 with CCW. Not on every squad, but it would be nice to be able to do it.

It is interesting.
One of the standard gripes about basic CSMs is that they lack ATSKNF and getting Fearless through an expensive icon is, well expensive.

And as you pointed out, Grey Hunters get both and look at how highly they're regarded.

To be honest, ATSKNF is often a nerf for me as much as a buff. Often, I *want* a squad to be obliterated in HTH, so I can shoot the enemy squad on my turn. Again, I might feel differently if tac marines ever had a hope of winning in HTH, like CSM or grey hunters.

Another reason I'm not so crazy about ATSKNF is that in 6th my marines are dying wholesale, even with FNP on most of them. Helturkeys and the "buckets of dice" approach from guard and now Tau make it so that often the units taking the morale checks don't have a viable model count anyway. Yay! My 2 remaining marines instantly rally! Occasionally, this allows them to score, but usually means they just die the next turn.

If I wanted Space Marines with ATSKNF, I'd play my Dark Angels.