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I'd like to see how people are playing it.

I've read a few tourney reports where they are saying NO, but also 1 more recent where they "Stacked 3 (33% each RIGHT?!) ADL walls up and hid the Defiler" to prove it covers more then 25%.

Let me know what you all think. Assume we're thinking straight on from a marine POV.



Love
Dan

Why does the Poll say 2+?
You're not trying to Go to Ground with a vehicle are you?

Where is the It depends on the firing models Line of Sight option?

Odd poll with odd options is odd.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Odd poll with odd options is odd.

A very popular idea is to give your defiler shrouded behind an ADL for a 2+ cover.

Stormbreed wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
Odd poll with odd options is odd.

A very popular idea is to give your defiler shrouded behind an ADL for a 2+ cover.

And how do you manage that?
I'm assuming you're not adding night fighting in here.

Would it not be better to put the actual save of be ADL on the poll, as I'm sure you're not trying to be biased at all with the poll options?

A Nurgle Soulgrinder gets Shrouded. Perhaps that's what folks are thinking of?

If its a Nurgle Soulgrinder and can get 25%, yes it gets a 2+ cover save.

As above, Nurgle gives shrouded which makes that ADL give a 2+ cover if we think the Soul Grinder is 25% hidden by an ADL.

Hard to kill that big guy if true.

Thanks
dan

Soulgrinder =/= Defiler, hence the confusion as to how Defiler's are getting 2+ cover behind an aegis.

As noted there are some strange options in this poll. At the end of the day though, they certainly are 25% obscured by an ADL.

 L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:
As noted there are some strange options in this poll. At the end of the day though, they certainly are 25% obscured by an ADL.

Based on the poll so far, you are the Minority in this.

Can you explain your opinion, do you base the height of the model as 25%?

From what people seem to think, the 4 legs that get covered by the ADL don't make up 25% of the whole model. I'd like your view on it.

Options are crystal clear. Yes/No/Undecided.

 L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:
As noted there are some strange options in this poll. At the end of the day though, they certainly are 25% obscured by an ADL.

25% of the height is usually covered. That is not the same as saying 25% of the facing, which is the models area on that facing, is covered.

It depends on where the shooter is but generally I'd say 25% of the model is not obscured.

Meaningless poll is meaningless.

As always with cover questions, it depends entirely on LOS from the firer.

 insaniak wrote:
As always with cover questions, it depends entirely on LOS from the firer.

Okay, let's just assume the firer is a marine with a lascannon 30" away, with the Soulgrinder right behind the ADL. Better?

EDIT: And none of the models involved are elevated, and nothing else is between them, which should have been obvious but whatever.

Pyrian wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
As always with cover questions, it depends entirely on LOS from the firer.

Okay, let's just assume the firer is a marine with a lascannon 30" away, with the Soulgrinder right behind the ADL. Better?

That still gives us zero useful information.

How high is the marine relative to the soulgrinder/defiler. Is he on the top floor of a ruin. On the ground. Hanging from a tree. shooting out of a rhino.


The only way to tell is to get down and look if 25% is covered. There is no mathematical sweet spot or anything we can do.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How high is the marine relative to the soulgrinder/defiler.

They're both on the table, and there's nothing else between them, and stop making extraneous stuff up to muddy an issue that's a lot clearer than you're making it out to be, because if you want to try to do that, you will inevitable succeed. "What if the game already ended!? What if they're actually in different games being played on the same table??? We don't know that, so you can't tell."

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only way to tell is to get down and look if 25% is covered.

People are going to disagree even then, since what area covered counts is in contention.

Pyrian wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
As always with cover questions, it depends entirely on LOS from the firer.

Okay, let's just assume the firer is a marine with a lascannon 30" away, with the Soulgrinder right behind the ADL. Better?

Given the amount of height variation available to the defiler depending on how you attach the legs, and the fact that Devastator kits come with standing and kneeling legs, no, not especially.

There is no simple 'If A, then B' answer here. As with any physical cover issue, it's always going to come down to checking actual LOS from the firing model.

 insaniak wrote:
...it's always going to come down to checking actual LOS from the firing model.

The point of the discussion is that people are disagreeing as to how that should be done. Whether weird conversions are involved is extraneous.

There is only one way to check LoS. Get down and look. Then discuss it with your opponent. If its close, dice off for it.

Aye, it all comes down to what 25% the rule is on about.
Is it 25% total surface area of a facing,
Or 25% of any dimension, such as height.

I ran a poll on this a little while ago here. Seems most people think of it as surface area.

...because that is what the rules define by telling you to look at the facing, and not the height.

Linking to another thread ...


Image A ... No i don't think 25% is not covered


image B ... 25% yep that gun is doing a great job.

So does this mean that if you take a gun it will always get cover by 25%? No of course not, you have to look every time ... that is TLOS after all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...because that is what the rules define by telling you to look at the facing, and not the height.

How does that define it? Could be the height of the facing, the rule definitely doesn't define it as surface area.
Now I agree it should be 25% of the surface area, but the rule certainly isn't clear on it.

Pyrian wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
...it's always going to come down to checking actual LOS from the firing model.

The point of the discussion is that people are disagreeing as to how that should be done. Whether weird conversions are involved is extraneous.

I wasn't talking about 'weird conversions'. The defiler's legs are attached with ball sockets. You can vary the height of the model quite significantly depending on just what position you attach them in.

Your poll doesn't reflect a disagreement over how to judge 25% of the model being blocked. It asks if the defiler gets cvover from an ADL, which is not a question that can be answered anywhere except on the table, by looking at the actual models involved.

This isn't just me being difficult. It's how the game works. If you asked if the defiler can be seen on the other side of a piece of terrain, you would get a similar response.

Behind just an aegis line it may be difficult to grant the cover, although standing behind a quad gun right behind the guy gunning it and I would say he def has it from angles other than directly to the sides or behind it.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...because that is what the rules define by telling you to look at the facing, and not the height.

How does that define it? Could be the height of the facing, the rule definitely doesn't define it as surface area.
Now I agree it should be 25% of the surface area, but the rule certainly isn't clear on it.

The word "facing" does define it as area, explicitly so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...because that is what the rules define by telling you to look at the facing, and not the height.

How does that define it? Could be the height of the facing, the rule definitely doesn't define it as surface area.
Now I agree it should be 25% of the surface area, but the rule certainly isn't clear on it.

The word "facing" does define it as area, explicitly so.

How?
Facing is defined in the rules (basically the sides of a vehicle). Nothing there about area.
Even a standard definition of Facing doesn't imply area.
Please explain why "facing" explicitly means area, because I'm really not seeing it.

What defines the sides? The area of them.
Nothing allows you to only consider height, as height alone does not determine the facing. Ditto Width. The two together, however, do (witha ppropriate changes for non-rectangular surface s- so, those filthy non imperials, usually )