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Something that I have always been fascinated with was the race of the Demiurg. I have always loved the ideas of Dwarfs, being a tough, proud, and very inteligent race (in their own ways). But Demiurg in 40k are even cooler, imo. An ancient race with incredible technology, but still remains to be mostly peaceful in a universe filled with war. If anybody is familiar with the video game series Homeworld, and its lore, Demiurg are very similar to the Bentusi, imo. Where the Bentusi gave the Hiigarans Ion technology, which ultimately turned the tides; Demirug game Tau Ion tech too; and I think that's awesome.

So, with the rumors of Demiurg coming to Tau codex being false in the end, I have never wanted to have them in my army more than now. Right off the bat, I was looking for ideas of models, or proxies. I have really liked the style of the Forge Fathers from Mantic games (Another unit too). Their models are similar to how I would picture Demirug armor being, if not like the official concept art (which is a sort of a natural stone-armor).

So, the purpsoe of this thread will be to bounce ideas on models/count-as, and propose stat lines/costs/etc for them. I'll get it started.

I was thinking 2 different Demiurg units would be perfect. One Heavy unit, and one Elites troop unit. My idea on the infantry units would be something that is like a Terminator combined with an Ogryn. High toughness (T5?) and high armor (2+ or 3+?). They would be pretty pricey though, to ensure they are ballenced. Squads of 3?

The other model would be a stocky Dreadnought type unit. It would have an armor value, but would be about the size of the Assault on Black Reach Dreadnaught (which is slaightly smaller than the normal one, so pretty short and stocky.). I think it would be cool to make it a bit unique for its armor values, to represent their overall toughness. I was thinking something like 12 all around.

Initiative 3 to represent that the are stocky, but can are still very well trained in melee, and farely fast. Not I4 because I can't seem them being as fast in hand to hand as a Space Marine. But much faster than a Tau Firewarrior or a Necron. Maybe the "Seargent" character can be I4? I think that would make more sense.

Lastly, they should have options to be either shooty or melee, sort of like Terminators. Their shooty weapons would be unique Ion weapons that the Tau aren't using. For the assault (one handed) weapon, farely short range like 12" inches to stay ballenced. It will also need to have an Overcharg stat line to match the trend with every other Ion weapon already in the book. Maybe 12" assault 2, Str5 AP4, then St6 AP4 blast Overcharged. The cool thing, unlike the Tau's version of Ion, Demiurg Ion does not get hot...they did invent it, after all. I'm sort of dry on orignal ideas for melee. Maybe hammers like the actual Mantic Forge Father models? I dunno, what do you think?

Or, they can be a mid-range shooty squad. maybe 24"? 2 handed heavy weapons. I'm thinking they can be pretty frightingly powerful, but being only 24". Maybe heavy 2 Str5 Ap3? again, a squad of 3; so 6 St5 Ap3 shots at BS 4 can do some damage.

The Dreadaught-type unit will also have a melee or shooty option. The shooty option should be the Demiurgs version a heavy gunboat. 60" range heavy gun of killy-ness. The thing is, I want it to serve a different purpse from Broadsides. I want it so that a player might go "I want to take a Broadside for this reason, a Hammerhead for this reason, and a Demiurg "thing" for this reason."

So I'm thinking it is going to spill templates at a long distance.Right now, the only long range template option we have is a Hammerhead (Riptide too, but thats an Elite), but it also serves the purpse of taking out tanks, and its an upgrade. This Demiruge unit could be a dedicated Template unit. St5 Ap2 Heavy 4, and St6 Ap2 Large blast Heavy 2 Overcharged? I'm picturing something like a gun similar to the Ion Accelerator (on the Riptide) as each arm of this unit (each one responible for 2 shots and/or 1 of the templates). That may seem really powerful, but remember, Demiurg are BS4, there is scatter, and they cannot benifit from markerlights. We can also make the shooty variant cost a lot more than the melee. Now that I think about it, I'd make it so that it has 2 guns total (no close quaters gun) each arm is one of these Ion guns, and a weapon distroyed will weaken it by chopping the damage done in half. This also allows for you to overcharge for one, and standard fire the other, if that floats your boat.

Again, I can't really think of much as far as the melee version goes. But I do want it to be relevent also. Ideally, Demiurge should be taken for its melee more often then its shooty, imo. To act as very tough, hard hitting "elite" units, but there are very few of them.

So what melee options should we use? Any proposed statlines? Lets bounce some ideas!

One thing that made very little sense to me is that 'ion' wasn't made haywire. I would make the Demiurg Dread have 2x heavy 2 small blasts, s8 ap4 each, but with haywire and no gets hot. Range could be 36". Armor values I think could be av13/12/11 hp4, like a pimped up Ironclad - staline would be ws4 bs4 s6 i3 a3, with option to trade a gun for a typical dccw. Points costs would be about 175? He massacres ground vehicles and up to medium infantry alike, but flyers and more mobile threats will have no problem taking him down - you need skyrays etc to cover his weakness.

As for the infantry, why not t6 3+ like wraithguard? Give them an assault 1 r24" s3 ap2 haywire blast, slow and purposeful, 5++ from something, and treat all terrain as difficult. Whole statline could be ws4 bs4 s5 t6 w1 i3 a2 ld9 sv3+, and they'd cost about 50/each with that gun. Alternatively, they get power weapons with haywire as well, and replace the gun with a 3++ shield. They're durable, very painful, but don't have that magical 2+ that terminators do, so their weakness lies in krak missiles, plasma, and volume of fire, much like a crisis suit.Their main issue is that they're slower than even terminators, and delivering that punch is going to be difficult. At their points cost and slot, it's a very difficult choice to make honestly.

So, What's your opinion? Does this scratch your uber-dwarfman in space itch?

uberjoras wrote:

So, What's your opinion? Does this scratch your uber-dwarfman in space itch?

lol

I never really picture them to be so slow though. Sure, they aren't faster than the average footsoldir, but they wouldn't be lumbering slow-stepping units. These are soldiers of the Demiurg. They are trained to move, and the armor they wear doesn't limit them that much. I was thinking, if anything, they would have a special rule that keeps them from making a Run move. So they can definitely move at a brisk pace, but they aren't going to be winning any races. Does that make sense?

Also, when it comes to tough models, imo, nothing hits home better than something with more than 1 wound. T5 W2 just feels tougher to me, while still being woundable models. I think instead of a 5+ invul, they should have an special ability like "Stoneskin", that grants feel no pain.

In close combat, i'm thinking a 2 handed power weapon, like a really big hammer. Doesnt grant +1Str, but Ap2 two handed hammer with Haywire and Fleshbane. Remember, I want these units to be able to contend against the other extremely valuable elites, and most likely for their melee support they can offer. They serve as a very durable, hard hitting melee distraction to absorb fire for the Tau. Lore-wise, I would think that's why the Demiurg are there in the first place. But yeah, I agree with your statline otherise. So maybe something like:

WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld9 Sv3+ 40pts per model

Stoneskin: Grants the Feel No Pain special rule, can't Run

May Exchange its ranged weapon for:
- Hammer with cool name (Ap3, Haywire, Fleshbane, two handed)..................10pts

So at 150 points, you can have a 3-man squad running up and taking hits for your weaker Tau units. *shrug*

They cant take Tau devilfish (or should they? if they could, they'd take up 2 slots each...), so they are going to have to survive the trek across the field. I think that will be their biggest weak point. But honestly, I would rather take them just to absorb fire for the 2 or 3 turns it would take to kill them off.

IIRC slow and purposeful does prevent them from running - maybe I overdid it with the difficult terrain thing. t5/2w makes them even tougher against everything but bolters, and FnP on top of that makes them even more tough.

Devilfish can't carry Bulky models, so demiurg wouldn't be able to go into it I imagine.

uberjoras wrote:
t5/2w makes them even tougher against everything but bolters

Makes them tougher against anything but Bolters? As in only Bolters can hurt them effectively? That doesn't make much sense at all.... A bolter would have to roll a 6 in order to wound a T6 model, When it's T5, 5s and 6s wound. Not to mention this way, St10 can still instant kill it.

uberjoras wrote:
IIRC slow and purposeful does prevent them from running

Yeah, you're right. I though it was a D6 movement. Maybe that was 5th? *shrug*

uberjoras wrote:
Devilfish can't carry Bulky models, so demiurg wouldn't be able to go into it I imagine.

Yeah, Bulky makes sense. I take it other races transports can carry bulky though? I would assume Ogryn are Bulky, and they can go into a Chimera.

Here's my take on it from a few years ago..
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296879.page#1612931

'Tougher against anything but bolters" means the following:

A Marine takes about 6 bolter hits (4.5 Pulse rifle hits, 1.2 Plasma hits, or 9 lasgun hits) to kill.
A Terminator takes about 12 bolter hits (9 Pulse rifle hits, 1.8 Plasma hits on 5++/3.6 Plasma hits on 3++, or 18 lasgun hits) to kill.
A wraithguard takes about 18 bolter hits (9 Pulse Rifle hits, 1.5 Plasma hits, or 18 lasgun hits) to kill.
t5 2w 3+ takes about 18 bolter hits (12 Pulse Rifle hits, 2.4 Plasma hits, 36 lasgun hits) to kill.

This is the idea I made for my custom 5th edition tau codex (so some/all the rules are out of date) but I too had difficulty coming up with a use for the Demiurg...this is the best I got:

Demiurg
WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I3 A2 LD 8 SV4+ (90pts for 5 models)
Equipment: Beamer (S6 Ap6 rg 30" Assault 1), Chain Axe

Rules:
And my axe!: Demiurg may only be taken if there is a firewarrior squad in the army. Demiurg may not be taken if the Kroot Master Shaper is taken as an HQ choice
Relentless
Preferred enemy: Orks
Stocky build: Demiurg are too slow and cumbersome to make a sweeping advance.

Add up to 4 more models at 16pts/model
Options:
Two members of the Squad may replace their Beamers with:
Sonic Driver...............+15pts (S5 Ap- Template. All models hit by a sonic driver and not killed are pushed D6 inches directly away from the firer)
Seeder cannon.........+15pts (S- Ap- range 30" large blast. it launches digging mines that home in on a target. Place the blast marker on the table and roll for scatter. Should any models under the blast move, run, shoot, or assault next turn, all models in their unit suffer S5 Ap- hits before the action is taken. The template is discarded after hits are resolved. Lasts for one turn if none of the afflicted models choose to move run shoot or assault.)
One model in the squad may exchange his beamer and chain Axe for:
Cyclonic Ion Blaster............+20pts
Sergeant may take:
Surveyor Glass............+20(S-AP- Rng 24" Heavy 1. owning player may choose which models are removed on the hit unit for one round of shooting. Surveryor glass also reveals all models using hidden deployment within its effective range)
Sergeant may exchange his Chain Axe for:
Ballistic fist...................+10 all CC attacks for the sergeant are made at S5
Power Axe.....................+15pts
Drill fist..........................+25pts (counts as chainfist, adapted fist designed for drilling adamantium)