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I need help with taking on Vampire Counts with my Dwarfs. I keep on losing and have another battle coming up this weekend in a 2,000 point game.

I'm using a BSB to make sure my guys don't fail their fear/terror tests. Cannons with flaming runes to wear out Terrorgeists/any other big targets. Should I use spell breaker runes to stop raise dead?

Other than those thoughts, I can't work out how to get to the army general bunkered in about 80ish zombies. What are the best ways of dealing with Vampire Counts?

Well, Vampire Counts are a pain, I know. In 2000pts, you may be able sqeeuze in Thorek or a Runelord with an Anvil, but, you dont have to. I won against a couple VC players last weekend. I would suggest a Runelord with MRoBalance (ALWAYS!) 2 Dispel Scrolls/RoSpellbreaking, RoStone or MRoGromril if you can fit it. As for the Lord, always put him atop some Sheildbearers, for only 25pts there is never a reason not to. MRoGromril, MRoSpite(maybe), RoMight, RoFury, MRoKragg(if needed)RoSnorri all excellent. I also like to do the Always Strikes First magical no armour saves style Lord. That build is entirely offensive, but will still have a solid deffence with a 1+ or 2+ re-rollable save.

For the Core, take Quarrllers with GW, in blocks of 16-18, and a small one of Thunderers maybe 10-12. They will shoot down just about anything, and the GW Quarrellers will absolutely hold their own against any frail VC Core, and any heavier infantry until the Hammerers can swing around or the war machines can open up again.

Speaking of Hammerers, 2 block of 25-30, that's it. Put the Lord in one and the Thane in the other, this will offer the best possible Leadership/Morale spread for surrounding units, the Hammerers wont really need it. Plus the Lords unit is essentially immune to Psychology. Give the Thane some defensive Runes, and I would recommend the RoChallenging to redirect an enemy unit, works great against cavalry. Also RoStone, don't worry about giving him any offensive weapons or Runes, let the Hammerers take care of that. The double Hammerers will smash aside anything that comes there way, and will be near impossible to make flee, also will be protected from armour or skill degrading magics with the Runelord at their backs.

Now, as for war machines... try using two Organ Guns and two Cannons. This will give you an excellent deterance zone with the Organ Guns range along with the Quarrellers and Thunderers, and exellent long range firepower against the big stuff with the Cannons. A Grudge Thrower can be thrown in as well if you think it is neccesary.

WOAH, is your opponent really putting his general in units of zombies? That's a horrible idea, and you should take advantage of it. Though, as Dwarves... might be hard.

First, what generals are your VC opponents using? Are they Vampire Lords or Master Necromancers?

Second, what else does the VC player(s) commonly use?

You don't HAVE to kill the general to win, but it helps. If he's putting him in a unit of zombies, then the general strategy should be to get into combat with that unit and focus ALL of your attacks onto the zombies. This should make you win combat, and then more zombies will die. Repeat this every single turn until the zombies are all gone, and then those extra wounds due to crumble will hit his general instead, probably instantly killing him.

If you don't think you can beat this unit in combat (maybe because you don't have any dedicated combat units, yourself), then you should do your best to feed it chaff the entire game. It will be fairly slow even with the general inside it, and if it really has 80 zombies then it will be RIDICULOUSLY un-maneuverable, and so should be fairly easy to control.

If his general is a Master Necromancer, he probably won't want that unit in combat anyway, which means you should ignore it and just kill everything else. In 2000 points, he can't really have a Master Necromancer AND a decent Vampire Lord floating around out there.

Can you give us an idea of what the vampire player runs? If he is going a combat lord in a unit of grave guard or something then double grudge throwers till there are less than 5 rank and file then canon him. If it's in a unit of 80 zombies hit it hard in the flanks and ignore the general, kill enough zombies that he can't raise them back and his general crumbles.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Can you give us an idea of what the vampire player runs? If he is going a combat lord in a unit of grave guard or something then double grudge throwers till there are less than 5 rank and file then canon him. If it's in a unit of 80 zombies hit it hard in the flanks and ignore the general, kill enough zombies that he can't raise them back and his general crumbles.

Putting a combat lord in a zombie unit isn't a horrible idea against dwarves. With the kills the combat lord is wracking up, he should be winning combat despite the zombies. With the rate that zombies replenish, the lord should be safe enough. IMO, he's at more risk from S6 great weapons than he is from crumble.

-Matt

That's what I was thinking, actually. I don't know if Dwarves can field a unit that's strong enough in combat to do more wounds to zombies than can be brought back. Though, if the Dwarf player really focused on constantly dispelling IoN cast by the level 4, he might be able to do it.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Can you give us an idea of what the vampire player runs? If he is going a combat lord in a unit of grave guard or something then double grudge throwers till there are less than 5 rank and file then canon him. If it's in a unit of 80 zombies hit it hard in the flanks and ignore the general, kill enough zombies that he can't raise them back and his general crumbles.

Putting a combat lord in a zombie unit isn't a horrible idea against dwarves. With the kills the combat lord is wracking up, he should be winning combat despite the zombies. With the rate that zombies replenish, the lord should be safe enough. IMO, he's at more risk from S6 great weapons than he is from crumble.

-Matt

I agree, I was also curious as to why this was the case, but I can see it being sort of bait and switch kind of deal, even if the Zombies will get chewed up quick, there will still be time for something else to come around, then there is still the Lord to deal with. But also the Zombies should get killed off in at relatively fast pace, even when replenishing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tangent wrote:
That's what I was thinking, actually. I don't know if Dwarves can field a unit that's strong enough in combat to do more wounds to zombies than can be brought back. Though, if the Dwarf player really focused on constantly dispelling IoN cast by the level 4, he might be able to do it.

Also I have actually used a horde of Hammerers, 10x4 or 10x3, against Zombies and it has worked quite well, though they replenish quick, the large amounts of attacks are enough to break the unit, I have found.

Here is what I think was run (from memory) and I would think it would be a similar list this weekend.

Big unit of zombies (I think it started at 50-60) with two vampires one who had strength 7 that turned my Dwarf Lord's 1+ to a 5+ which lost me the game
Smaller unit of zombies with a banshee
Smaller unit of zombies with his Master Necromancer general
Terrorgeist (which screamed my horde of 40 great weapon warriors so they fled into it)
Mortis Engine (which gave regen to his zombies)
Ten dire wolves
Corpse cart to give always strike first

I'm thinking of running:
Dwarf Lord on shield bearers with Great Weapon and Runes of Resistance, Stone, M Rune of Steel and Rune of Spite
Thane as BSB with Rune of Cleaving, Resistance and Gromril
Master Engineer with handgun and great weapon
Rune Smith with rune of Stone and 3 runes of spell breaking
38 Quarrellers with great weapons
38 Hammerers
2 Cannons with Rune of burning
Grudge Thrower with rune of burning and accuracy

How would that list fair? and if you can think of any changes that would be helpful.

That VC list looks absolutely horrendous, but is, coincidentally, probably not too bad against Dwarves. The double vampire hero unit without the general inside of it will be really hard to kill. If one of those vampires has the Ogre Blade, making him strength 7, then he doesn't have much of a ward save. That means you should try to snipe those vampires every single turn, and stay out of combat until you do. Then, smash into the zombies with your combat blocks and chop them up. If you can get both combat blocks in on the same zombie unit, you'll make quick work of it.

The only tricky thing is that he might have ward saves on his vampires against flaming attacks, which make your cannons kind-of a liability against them.

Hmmm well, personally I would decrease the amount of Quarrellers and add more Hammerers or Warriors. Getting two CC based blocks will be better I think. Hammerers and Warriors or Hammerers and Hammerers, with Quarrellers as support and flank protection. The Grudge Thrower will be excellent for this, I would say take an Organ Gun to tear through Zombies with ease, but seeing as how there is a Corpse Cart and Mortis Engine, the 2 Cannons are probably better. I also would suggest taking the MRoBalance for the Runesmith. The RoSpellberaking are good, but it is always good to know you have the extra dispel no matter what, i think so anyways.

Based on that VC list ide be inclined to do something like this: long beards with hw + shield x 40 and the banner of combat res, put a Runelord kitted with anti magic in there and a thane with rune of challenge. Then bring two 9 man (3x3) cubes of slayers. Use the rune of challenge to bring the zombie block into your longbeards then hut each side with slayers.this will give you so many kills that the crumble should take.him out in 2-3 rounds of CC (don't forget, you have to dispel his regen spells). If he challenges you with his melee vamp, simply decline with your rune lord (you don't wanna fight with him anyways). Bring 3-4 10-14man units of quarrellers (don't waste points on thunderers since zombies have no armor and don't waste pts on command or gweps for the quarrellers). Then bring 2 cannons and 4 bolt throwers with rune of burning. Use all warmachines to take out the gheist, cart and engine in turn 1. Bring a small 10 man block of regular warriors and put 2-3 more rune smiths in there. If you have any points left ide bring a flame cannon (maximize hits on the zombie units as the flame template covers more that the small blast).

I have to disagree with those tactics. The smaller units will be good for the multiple flank charges, but thats it, and they wont last long afterwards. The RoChallenge redirector is something I find effective though, as well as of course simply avoiding and dispelling with the Runelord. I find that keeping the large blocks of Hammerers and having the GW Quarrellers fire on the side, then flank charge, to much better off. Also Organ Guns are much better than Flame Cannons overall. The Cannons are a neccesity of course, and the Bolt Throwers are a good idea, and can work well with a good crossfire set up, but Grudge Throwers would still be better in that case, having 2 Grudge Throwers instead of 4 Bolt Throwers would be better especially against Zombies and even aginst the big stuff.

Vampires have a critical weakness. Once outside of the generals 12", they are slow as... well, something really slow.
As a vampire player, I've had a lot of trouble with opponents who split is forces.
If I were running dwarves, I'd dump half my warmachines far to each flank. Anvil whatever the general is in to slow him down, and you slow down the rest by the nature of the army.
Without the ability to march*, you can easily encircle or just repeatedly shoot the army.

*Units that can march without being in proximity to the general: Blood Knights, Varghulf, Vargheists. All 3 are horribly expensive for what you get.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Vampires have a critical weakness. Once outside of the generals 12", they are slow as...

Dwarves?

A quick question, Can you scream into combat with the Terrorgeist and take hits from Mortis Engine while in combat?

I had a block of 40 warriors who were losing two/three a turn to the vampires with the zombies but got massacred by the shots they were taking every turn.

Silver_skates wrote:
A quick question, Can you scream into combat with the Terrorgeist and take hits from Mortis Engine while in combat?

I had a block of 40 warriors who were losing two/three a turn to the vampires with the zombies but got massacred by the shots they were taking every turn.

Yes, and yes.

If you were only losing 2 to 3 warriors per turn to two combat vampires, then those vampires could be a LOT stronger.

Fun fact: your scream attacks can be used to scream into combats your terrorgeist is not even a part of.

Hmm thats true that they slow. A Rangers and Miners list might actually be more effective than one of mixed units of Warriors and Slayers, for the constant flanking and more manuverability. I like the Ranger lists, however I dont think I have utilized one against Vampires.

As slow as they are, marcher dwarves are faster than non-marching vampire counts infantry.

If he's got a mortis engine and a terrorgheist, I'd kill the terrorgheist 1st (use warmachines) then start on the engine.
Still use the anvil to slow the general. It will stall his whole army.

-Matt

That is also true. And I agree, the Terrorgheist is priority 1. Take some shots at with the Cannons, maybe even the Grudge Thrower, but probably just Cannons. And yeah the stopping the General in his tracks will slow the entire army. I still think a solid big block with one flanking would be best.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
That is also true. And I agree, the Terrorgheist is priority 1. Take some shots at with the Cannons, maybe even the Grudge Thrower, but probably just Cannons. And yeah the stopping the General in his tracks will slow the entire army. I still think a solid big block with one flanking would be best.

Shoot everything you need to at the terrorghiest to kill it. Killing the Mortis Engine 2nd has another bonus, the hits you'll inflict on units around it will be at a higher strength.
If he's running limited wizard, using the rune that counters and destroys spells is really good.
A lot of vampire players are at a loss of what to do when they lose the spell that lets them make more guys.

-Matt

Oh! Right you are. Also thats the Spelleater Rune at its finest!
I remember one such exact scenario. Spelleater Rune destroyed the summoning and the rest fell soon after.

A few things:

- your Dwarf Lord looks well-equipped, but with so little going towards his offensive power, a Rune Lord is probably more efficient.
Especially if you're not going to take advantage of Royal Blood.

- not a fan of the Master Engineer He costs a lot of points for what he does.

- Are the 38 Quarrelers all in one unit? Two units of 19 would do well, or drop one unit and use the points to get some Warriors.

- Please tell me those Cannons have the Rune of Forging. That, far more so than Burning, is what makes Dwarf Cannons so stupidly amazing.
I've also seen great things done with an Enginner carrying some pistols. 20pts for +1W, +2A (and two shots for Stand and Shoot), re-rolls on the Misfire chart, and BS4 Grapeshot.

- The Rune of Penetration is also incredibly useful on a Grudge Thrower. I'd pick it up, if you can.

Overall, I'd say aim at the Engine, the Cart, and the 'Geist with your shooting, and then just meet him in combat and grind it out. You should have a pretty easy time taking down at least two of those targets before the fighting starts, and by that point you've already netted a lot of points. Let him raise his zombies.

For what it's worth, though, Hammerers are kinda wasted on zombies beyond their Bodyguard rule. Maybe drop a few models to go towards some other stuff?

This is my refined list:

Dwarf Lord on shield bearers with Great Weapon and Runes of Resistance, Stone, M Rune of Steel and Rune of Spite
Thane as BSB with Rune of Cleaving, Resistance and Gromril
Master Engineer with handgun and great weapon and Rune of Stone
Rune Smith with rune of Stone and a runes of spell breaking and spell eating
18 Quarrellers with great weapons inc full command
23 Warriors with great weapons
38 Hammerers inc full command
2 Cannons with Rune of burning
Grudge Thrower with rune of burning and accuracy

Lord goes with Hammerers and issues challenges to keep Vampires tied up. They should not be able to take him out with (at worst) 3+ re-rollable followed by 4+. The Zombies should should die by the bucket load against hammerers without the vampires to carry the load.
BSB and Runesmith with Warriors.
Spelleater is used against raise dead as soon as I can. Hopefully that stopes him raising as many zombies as last time.
Engineer goes with Grudge thrower to make sure that thing hits and all warmachines pepper the Terror turn 1.

My only thought is to drop the Warriors for a unit of Thunderers.

This is better, give the Runesmith MRoBalance though. Also be careful with Spelleater Runes, though they can change the course of a game, they are one use only, a good choice nonetheless. The infantry looks pretty solid, if you want to change anything, consider dropping the Hammerers down to 33(for 35 total with the Lord and Shieldbearers) and lessening the Quarrellers to around 12, then add some Thunderers. Or go with what you suggested, and simply take an entire unit or two of Thunderers for maximum ranged attacks. However it may be more worth it to take more GW Quarrellers in that case.

The Cannons look good, but I would recommend giving one RoForging and/or RoReloading, in place of the Master Engineer. He is excellent, but I don't think you will really need him if you give the Cannons some more Runes. Grudge Thrower looks good though. Consider these few things and see if you can add them in.

Why has no one pointed out those cannons are illegal, you cannot share the same combination of runes on items, thereore no taking a single rune of fire on both, it must be rune of fire and, another rune, then just the rune of fire on the other cannon.

As one of the others said, take rune of forging, its an auto take on cannons and still makes them magical attacks

 Formosa wrote:
Why has no one pointed out those cannons are illegal, you cannot share the same combination of runes on items, thereore no taking a single rune of fire on both, it must be rune of fire and, another rune, then just the rune of fire on the other cannon.

As one of the others said, take rune of forging, its an auto take on cannons and still makes them magical attacks

Yeah that's why I suggested RoForging and RoReloading. Leave the RoBruning on the Grudge Thrower. Then do something like: Cannon I- RoForging RoReloading; Cannon II- RoBurning, RoForging(RoReloading). This should offer a good spread. Really just make sure you don't have the same set of Runes on two(or more) war machines.

What advantage does Reloading even have in 8th? Why not just get an Engineer to re-roll those painful Misfire results, and Forging to re-roll the Misfire in the first place?

I don't think Thunderers are good at all. +1 to Hit and AP is great, and it's a good trade for reduced range, but then you add on that they cost significantly more, and Quarrelers look like the better option, 100% of the time.

Thunderers are ok and the 6" difference only matters on the first, after that ap makes a bit of.difference.

I'm an odd dwarf player in that I dont really use war machines(except anvil), I rely heavily on dwarf core, as I believe it's some of the best in the game, anything from rangers to thunderers and longbeards as core is great, they are also cheap for a gw and heavy armour, plus ws 5 and str4 for.the longbeards.

I usually run
Anvil, runelord, rune of balance, spelleater and spellbreaker and sometimes rune of defence (2+ ward vs shooting)
40 longbeards, gw
40 longbeards, rangers, gw
40 warriors, gw
40 warriors, gw
40 rangers, gw
Bsb, stollaz rune, other runes as needed.

These are the units I usually use, admittedly in bigger games, but they are fine vs vampires.

I'll agree that Thunderers are a little better and a little worse than Quarrelers. But then we get to their point cost.

@Silver_skates: why the Dwarf Lord instead of the Runelord? Also, is the benefit you're getting out of the Master Engineer really worth his points? And what kind of Runes do you have on those Hammerers?