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So, long story short I signed up for my first ever narrative campaign for this weekend and I've been writing lists all week. Usually I only ever play competitively as my only wargaming buddy I commonly play wtih isn't bothered with playing friendly or fluffy at all and likes a challenge amongst other reasons.

The problem being, I don't see the line between making a list that is too competitive and making a list so fluffy and fun it is really weak to play with and perhaps not so satisfying for myself very well. What do you guys consider to be a standard level friendly list? Feel free to post your own, for reference I'm playing at 1000, 2000 and 3000 points levels.

Are there units you like the look of, but just don't work as well as other options? Like space marine captains on foot, vanguard vets, LotD as some C:SM examples. It's not that they can't get the job done, it's just that other units do it better for less points. Give them a shot, they might surprise you.

Don't spam stuff. You don't need to be a one of everything White Dwarf battle report army, but try to avoid 3x on your list.

If you know something is overpowered, try playing without it. At the very least, you will probably get better with the rest of your army.

Is there something "classic", iconic, or important to the fluff? Field it. Even if it's not worth the points.

If you are running a theme list, try not to diverge from it, even if the thing you are adding is really powerful. If you are running a mech list, do you need a blob squad? does it fit?

Here's an example for you of "Fluffy" vs Competitive


Fluffy


Competitive


There's the difference. A Fluffy list takes a bunch of mediocre units for the sake of taking mediocre units. A Competitve list takes a bunch of good units for the sake of taking good lists. They are not exclusive either since the above competitive list is classic example of an elite drop trooper detatchment supported by artillery. The "Fluffy" list is just a Imperial Guard regiment that wasn't given good weapons.

The difference I see, between "Fluffy/fun" and "competitive" is an idea of story/theme.

For example:

Say I'm using a homebrew chapter of space marines that abhor fliers/long-distance weapons. Let's call them "Razor Blades." They are renowned for their assault troops and their lightning deep strike assaults. To this end, they infiltrate scouts onto the enemy while to launch assault units while assaulting up the field.

Here's the typical Razor Blade list:

HQ:
SM captain (Jump pack, 2x power sword): 155

Troops:
2x 5 man scouts w/camo cloaks/combat blades, tele homers: 210

Elites:
1x 1 Ironclad Dreadnought w/2x HF and drop pod: 180

Fast attack:
1x 6 assault marines (sarge with combat shield, power sword, melta bombs):143
1x 6 assault marines (sarge with combat shield, thunder hammer): 153
1x 6 assault marines (sarge with 2x power sword, melta bombs): 153


Total: 994 (if my calculations are right)

This isn't an amazing list, but it seems very fluffy to me, and would probably be fun. You'd start with all the assault marines in reserve and then deep strike them onto the table.

Though the list isn't precisely competitive, it's not 100% terrible. It has some synergy (which can be tweaked or made more efficient, or less, depending).

A fluffy list tells a story. It doesn't have to be terrible, just internally consistent with what a normal army would look like.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A Fluffy list takes a bunch of mediocre units for the sake of taking mediocre units.

No, that is absolutely wrong. A fluffy list is a list that is created to represent an army/character/concept/etc in the background fiction. Depending on the idea it is representing this could be anything from a list that is identical to a completely optimized tournament list to a list that is full of weak (but appropriate) units with little or no chance of winning. Neither end of the scale is better than the other, or more "fluffy" than the other.

A list that takes a bunch of mediocre units for the sake of taking mediocre units is just a bad list. In fact, it's probably NOT a fluffy list since you've taken units because they're weak, not because they fit the background fiction for the army. For example, your "fluffy" IG list is just a garbage list, it's full of terrible units and has no overall theme tying it together.

I think there's a huge misconception with fluffy vs competitive. A lot of the time, a competitive list is fluffy.

For example, a footslogging Marine list with randomly selected models is mediocre but not fluffy. A Marine list with a bunch of the same units (say, multiple tactical squads, an assault squad, a devastator squad, and a couple of dreadnoughts) where all infantry is, where applicable, mounted in Rhinos is competitive, but also fluffy.

The same can be said for Imperial Guard. Taking a platoon, command squad, Ogryn squad, Ratling squad and a few random tanks is mediocre but not fluffy. Taking a few platoons with attached heavy weapons squads backed up by Leman Russes, or a bunch of Veterans in Vendettas, is competitive and fluffy.

People need to get out of the misconception that fluffy lists means mediocre lists. Most of the time, fluffy and competitive are one and the same. If you want to run mediocre lists for fun, that's great (and it's what I personally do, since I mostly just make an army out of what models I like and have painted at the time), but don't try to make people running a fluffy list feel bad if it also happens to be competitive.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The problem being, I don't see the line between making a list that is too competitive and making a list so fluffy and fun it is really weak to play with and perhaps not so satisfying for myself very well.

There is no line between competitive and fluff, because they're two entirely separate concepts. "Fluffy" refers to how well your list represents something from the background fiction, while "competitive" refers to how well it wins games. Asking about a line between the two makes about as much sense as asking where the line between green and cold is.

 Nevelon wrote:
Don't spam stuff. You don't need to be a one of everything White Dwarf battle report army, but try to avoid 3x on your list.

Many fluffy lists involve "spam" because that's what the "real" army would take. For example, an Elysian drop troops list will have several units in Valkyries/Vendettas, and a BA jump pack list will have several units of assault marines.

If you know something is overpowered, try playing without it. At the very least, you will probably get better with the rest of your army.

Why? Whether or not a unit is overpowered is irrelevant, what matters is whether or not it is fluffy. My fluffy Elysian drop troops list will have several Vendettas even though they're overpowered.

 Peregrine wrote:

Asking about a line between the two makes about as much sense as asking where the line between green and cold is.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A Fluffy list takes a bunch of mediocre units for the sake of taking mediocre units.

No, that is absolutely wrong. A fluffy list is a list that is created to represent an army/character/concept/etc in the background fiction. Depending on the idea it is representing this could be anything from a list that is identical to a completely optimized tournament list to a list that is full of weak (but appropriate) units with little or no chance of winning. Neither end of the scale is better than the other, or more "fluffy" than the other.

A list that takes a bunch of mediocre units for the sake of taking mediocre units is just a bad list. In fact, it's probably NOT a fluffy list since you've taken units because they're weak, not because they fit the background fiction for the army. For example, your "fluffy" IG list is just a garbage list, it's full of terrible units and has no overall theme tying it together.

I believe I said that in my post, Mr. Peregrine. I should've put quotation marks around the word "Fluffy" to make my intention clear. And I have seen lists like the one I made up used as a "fluffy" list.

On another note, if a "fluffy" list needs to avoid spam (Because it's supposed to emulate the real battles of the 41st Millennium, as if a competitive list doesn't) someone should tell the Death Korps to stop spamming artillery guns as it's unfluffy for them to do so. Or tell those WAAC TFG Dark Angels use too many Plasma Guns as they should be using missile launchers and flamers to be more lore friendly.

Pure DW is a great example of a fluffy list that isn't very competitive.

Here's a fluffy list: did you know you can field an entire Space Marine Battle Company in 2000 pts? Captain in Power Armor, 6xTacticals with free weapons only, 2xAssault, 2xDevastators with missile launchers, all squads 10 man. Leaves you with forty points to play with, and I guarantee your opponent won't know what to make of it.

Um. I think what is happening here is people are interpreting it all differently. So I am going to go ahead and flip the table of no results with even more contradictions.

There is "fluffy", "competitive", "garbage", "fluffy that happens to be competitive", and "I am gonna make a cheese list, but make some random fluff to make it fluffy".

Fluffy:
This list will take whatever the player needs to truly make his list fit his theme without leaning towards a particular theme just for the big guns. They are willing to make sacrifices to like say t ake a bunch of rough riders if they want to have a Cavalry Charge force of barbarians.

Competitive:
This is the list that is playing to win. They will have the best, the very best, and only the best. This is where you get your Sabre/Vendetta/Razor/Flier spam lists. These lists have no true justifications and are in it to win it. Who give a crud about story anyways right?

Garbage:
This list is just someone's sorry attempt at a fluffy list because they think fluffy actually means [Fluff adj. 1.A word to describe a list that is total crap in any game of 40k]. Or they just want a garbage list for fun. (I have done it before and it is quite a thrill-ride).

Fluff that happens to be competitive:
This is a strong fluffy list. The honest choices that the player chose happen to fit well together. This can come from a solid and well-thought out background for his theme as opposed to cherry-picked trash. A light infantry "Tanith First" list will have a lot of infantry and heavy weapons and little tanks. This can be effective. A armoured company will have all vehicles. Strong list, synergy is there and is fluffy for "Armoured Fist of Armageddon"

I am gonna make a cheese list, but make some random fluff to make it fluffy just to keep the whiners off my back:
This list is in it to win it that does not want to show it. "Oh? Vendettas are the best unit in the whole game? LET'S MAKE A ELYSIAN ARMY WITH NO THOUGHT OF VALKYRIES". or "Oh? Tanks have a real buff in 7th edition where they are unstoppable? LET'S MAKE A LEMAN RUSS SPAM LIST WITH MELTAVETS IN CHIMERAS" You can normally tell these apart from the fluffers quite easily.


So that is my view on list-makers and list-making. It probably does not match your beliefs, but that is ok. It is my little insignificant opinion.

Your opponent has a helturkey.

Sad marine company :(

These lists have no true justifications and are in it to win it. Who give a crud about story anyways right?

how is scythwing unfluffy or about SW spaming GH , GW art for chaos offten shows helldrakes working in pairs . I think your wrong saying that good lists have no true justification.

Makumba wrote:

These lists have no true justifications and are in it to win it. Who give a crud about story anyways right?

how is scythwing unfluffy or about SW spaming GH , GW art for chaos offten shows helldrakes working in pairs . I think your wrong saying that good lists have no true justification.

Obviously you did not read my whole post Makumba. I clearly have a section labeled "Fluff that happens to be competitive" This just has to be honest fluff decision, not just a ploy. But that instance could be mistaken for the last category of "Fake-fluff"

edit - misread post

 Da Kommizzar wrote:


Obviously you did not read my whole post Makumba. I clearly have a section labeled "Fluff that happens to be competitive" This just has to be honest fluff decision, not just a ploy. But that instance could be mistaken for the last category of "Fake-fluff"

In a world where GK make blood sacrifice to stop the influence of the Blood God , necron fist bump with BAs and space marines are better friends with tau then with some other imperial factions , there is no such thing as fake fluff.

Nobody_Holme wrote:
Your opponent has a helturkey.

Sad marine company :(

Yup. I didn't say it was all that good, just that your opponent wouldn't know what to make of it. I mean, how often do you see 101 guys in power armor outside of Apocalypse?

Makumba wrote:

 Da Kommizzar wrote:


Obviously you did not read my whole post Makumba. I clearly have a section labeled "Fluff that happens to be competitive" This just has to be honest fluff decision, not just a ploy. But that instance could be mistaken for the last category of "Fake-fluff"

In a world where GK make blood sacrifice to stop the influence of the Blood God , necron fist bump with BAs and space marines are better friends with tau then with some other imperial factions , there is no such thing as fake fluff.

Lets not make this a Mat Ward Hate thread, 'kay?

Makumba wrote:
In a world where GK make blood sacrifice to stop the influence of the Blood God.

Pretty sure most everyone that posts this anywhere on the internet has never really read the piece of fluff in question, nor looked at the Grey Knights fluff as a whole.

A fluffy list is one that adheres to the fluff. Whether or not it's competitive or not depends on the piece of fluff you are interpreting. A Draigowing paladin army is very fluffy. Draigo is a supreme grandmaster and paladins are often the close protection/bodyguards of supreme grandmasters. It'll produce a pretty good list, if a little imbalanced. The fluff denotes that Grey Knights have enough terminator armor to put their normal troops into if they so desire, so an all terminator army would be rather fluffy. Coteaz leading an army of inquisitorial henchman is fluffy as well, seeing as Coteaz is very reticent to ask for the help of the Grey Knights, especially if the campaign takes place in the formosa sector itself.

All three of these lists have varying levels of effectiveness and all three are relatively fluffy.

So, pick a theme for your army that's based on the documented fluff of your faction and then build an army around that central theme.