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I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. Wait...yep, definitely.

Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How you look =/= how you act

No, but how you look allows others to perceive things about how you might act. If you take your young niece to go see Brave, and you leave the movie and she's talking about how cool Merida was, and how much butt she kicked, and how your niece wants to be like Merida, you'd see Merida as a somewhat positive role for her yes? Now say that Merida gets inducted as the next Disney Princess and her character completely changes to match this concept of what girls should look like. And now your niece wants to emulate Merida as she appears as a Disney Princess, she asks you about makeup, and getting your hairs did, and w/e other sorts of nonsense that she deems to be important to being a girl because that is what Merida would do.

What if the thing was a little different. What if Twilight Sparkle wasn't the bookish young pony, and instead focused on trying to pick up the cute boys on the football team? Wouldn't this upset you as someone that thought Twilight was a positive role model for young girls? A girl that studied well, learned new things, and used her brain to beat challenges rather than the supple batting of eyelashes or a small giggle?

I can't believe I just made that comparison... >_<

I was trying to find a way to make a comparison like that, but, knowing absolutely nothing about MLP, I was unable to, and unwilling to put the effort in.

So thank you for taking one for the team there, Alfndrate.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Best selling politician two terms in a row!

But if you don't see the problem with the Brave situation and don't mind having role models for young girls made more sexual and less independent then that's fine I guess. Some people liked having a better role model for their daughters.

The Brave thing isn't aimed at me is it? As I feel that Disney princesses aren't exactly the best role models for little girls especially in a society that values independence, freedom and meritocracy.

As a father of a soon-to-be 11 year old daughter who loves Disney Princesses (we even did the Princess breakfast at Cinderella's Castle on our last trip to Mouse World) I guess I don't see the issue. Now, admittedly we have not seen this particular flick yet.

My daughter (adopted from China at 18 months) loves Mulan, Pocahontas, Ariel, Cinderella and the rest. She has done a report on the real Pocahontas for school. She has a nerf sword she uses when she plays Mulan while wearing a gorgeous silk kimono robe my wife got for her. She also adores all the fancy dressed 'barbie' doll type dolls of the Disney Princesses (and we have several of those). Yes, in almost all cases they are wearing fancier clothes than their movie version, and have nicer hair, but she likes them. That has no bearing on the lessons about independence and freedom she may have gotten from the movies (and which get reinforced in other aspects of her life). I see nothing wrong with her liking pretty fancy sparkly things. How are these characters bad role models? They tend to do courageous deeds for the sake of 'good', and if they also dress fancy and have nice hair, how does that negate their acts? My wife, and active duty soldier also enjoys dressing up and wearing make-up and sparkly jewelry. Often my wife and daughter will coordinate their outfits and jewelry if we are going someplace special. Yet my wife has deployed to combat zones and been shot at and rocketed a few times. The fact that she dresses nice and tries to look good doesn't make her less of a woman or less of a role model to my daughter.

I guess I am missing something, because I don't get it.

My daughter loves them too. She and the Wife both loved Brave, because the chick was normal. Well that and everyone had a funny accent.

I'll admit I didn't see brave. The last one I went to was tangled. It was packed and there were only about four males in the theater. NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS A MUSICAL DEAR GOD THE HUMANITY!!! little girls dancing in the aisles in some form of prepubescent gynogifted conga line. Wo.

 CptJake wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Best selling politician two terms in a row!

But if you don't see the problem with the Brave situation and don't mind having role models for young girls made more sexual and less independent then that's fine I guess. Some people liked having a better role model for their daughters.

The Brave thing isn't aimed at me is it? As I feel that Disney princesses aren't exactly the best role models for little girls especially in a society that values independence, freedom and meritocracy.

As a father of a soon-to-be 11 year old daughter who loves Disney Princesses (we even did the Princess breakfast at Cinderella's Castle on our last trip to Mouse World) I guess I don't see the issue. Now, admittedly we have not seen this particular flick yet.

My daughter (adopted from China at 18 months) loves Mulan, Pocahontas, Ariel, Cinderella and the rest. She has done a report on the real Pocahontas for school. She has a nerf sword she uses when she plays Mulan while wearing a gorgeous silk kimono robe my wife got for her. She also adores all the fancy dressed 'barbie' doll type dolls of the Disney Princesses (and we have several of those). Yes, in almost all cases they are wearing fancier clothes than their movie version, and have nicer hair, but she likes them. That has no bearing on the lessons about independence and freedom she may have gotten from the movies (and which get reinforced in other aspects of her life). I see nothing wrong with her liking pretty fancy sparkly things. How are these characters bad role models? They tend to do courageous deeds for the sake of 'good', and if they also dress fancy and have nice hair, how does that negate their acts? My wife, and active duty soldier also enjoys dressing up and wearing make-up and sparkly jewelry. Often my wife and daughter will coordinate their outfits and jewelry if we are going someplace special. Yet my wife has deployed to combat zones and been shot at and rocketed a few times. The fact that she dresses nice and tries to look good doesn't make her less of a woman or less of a role model to my daughter.

I guess I am missing something, because I don't get it.

*Slow Clap*

 Frazzled wrote:
NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS A MUSICAL DEAR GOD THE HUMANITY!!!

You went to a Disney cartoon, what did you expect?

 Frazzled wrote:
I'll admit I didn't see brave.

That is becuase you are a real man, such as myself. Let us retire to the lounge for scotch, cigars, and stories of wiener dog conquest in the age of enlightenment.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I'll admit I didn't see brave.

That is becuase you are a real man, such as myself. Let us retire to the lounge for scotch, cigars, and stories of wiener dog conquest in the age of enlightenment.

Hear hear!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS A MUSICAL DEAR GOD THE HUMANITY!!!

You went to a Disney cartoon, what did you expect?

About half the films are musicals (I don't distinguish them from Pixars). I just hadn't prepared myself beforehand.

Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I'll admit I didn't see brave.

That is becuase you are a real man, such as myself. Let us retire to the lounge for scotch, cigars, and stories of wiener dog conquest in the age of enlightenment.

I'm not certain if you were trying to come up with the perfect satire of the issue here or not, but you did.



@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

 Frazzled wrote:
My daughter loves them too. She and the Wife both loved Brave, because the chick was normal. Well that and everyone had a funny accent.

I'll admit I didn't see brave. The last one I went to was tangled. It was packed and there were only about four males in the theater. NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS A MUSICAL DEAR GOD THE HUMANITY!!! little girls dancing in the aisles in some form of prepubescent gynogifted conga line. Wo.

Could you not have had the cigars and brandy, and then unleashed the weiner dogs on the unsuspecting crowd?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How you look =/= how you act

No, but how you look allows others to perceive things about how you might act. If you take your young niece to go see Brave, and you leave the movie and she's talking about how cool Merida was, and how much butt she kicked, and how your niece wants to be like Merida, you'd see Merida as a somewhat positive role for her yes? Now say that Merida gets inducted as the next Disney Princess and her character completely changes to match this concept of what girls should look like. And now your niece wants to emulate Merida as she appears as a Disney Princess, she asks you about makeup, and getting your hairs did, and w/e other sorts of nonsense that she deems to be important to being a girl because that is what Merida would do.

What if the thing was a little different. What if Twilight Sparkle wasn't the bookish young pony, and instead focused on trying to pick up the cute boys on the football team? Wouldn't this upset you as someone that thought Twilight was a positive role model for young girls? A girl that studied well, learned new things, and used her brain to beat challenges rather than the supple batting of eyelashes or a small giggle?

I can't believe I just made that comparison... >_<

That is a complete change of character, not a change of how she looked.

I'm not certain if you were trying to come up with the perfect satire of the issue here or not, but you did.



@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

Really? Do you have a daughter?
Mine never had any of that. I will admit she did want a dragon fire gun after watching Mulan, but hey so did I.

hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How you look =/= how you act

No, but how you look allows others to perceive things about how you might act. If you take your young niece to go see Brave, and you leave the movie and she's talking about how cool Merida was, and how much butt she kicked, and how your niece wants to be like Merida, you'd see Merida as a somewhat positive role for her yes? Now say that Merida gets inducted as the next Disney Princess and her character completely changes to match this concept of what girls should look like. And now your niece wants to emulate Merida as she appears as a Disney Princess, she asks you about makeup, and getting your hairs did, and w/e other sorts of nonsense that she deems to be important to being a girl because that is what Merida would do.

What if the thing was a little different. What if Twilight Sparkle wasn't the bookish young pony, and instead focused on trying to pick up the cute boys on the football team? Wouldn't this upset you as someone that thought Twilight was a positive role model for young girls? A girl that studied well, learned new things, and used her brain to beat challenges rather than the supple batting of eyelashes or a small giggle?

I can't believe I just made that comparison... >_<

That is a complete change of character, not a change of how she looked.

And so what then if part of Merida's character is her staunch refusal to conform to a certain way of looking? Would it not be a complete change of character then, if she did conform?

You see, where fictional characters are concerned, their appearance is a part of their character.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
My daughter loves them too. She and the Wife both loved Brave, because the chick was normal. Well that and everyone had a funny accent.

I'll admit I didn't see brave. The last one I went to was tangled. It was packed and there were only about four males in the theater. NO ONE TOLD ME IT WAS A MUSICAL DEAR GOD THE HUMANITY!!! little girls dancing in the aisles in some form of prepubescent gynogifted conga line. Wo.

Could you not have had the cigars and brandy, and then unleashed the weiner dogs on the unsuspecting crowd?

I think thats probably a war crime somewhere.

 Frazzled wrote:
I think thats probably a war crime somewhere.

Is that similar to "It's 5 o'clock somewhere"?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
How you look =/= how you act

No, but how you look allows others to perceive things about how you might act. If you take your young niece to go see Brave, and you leave the movie and she's talking about how cool Merida was, and how much butt she kicked, and how your niece wants to be like Merida, you'd see Merida as a somewhat positive role for her yes? Now say that Merida gets inducted as the next Disney Princess and her character completely changes to match this concept of what girls should look like. And now your niece wants to emulate Merida as she appears as a Disney Princess, she asks you about makeup, and getting your hairs did, and w/e other sorts of nonsense that she deems to be important to being a girl because that is what Merida would do.

What if the thing was a little different. What if Twilight Sparkle wasn't the bookish young pony, and instead focused on trying to pick up the cute boys on the football team? Wouldn't this upset you as someone that thought Twilight was a positive role model for young girls? A girl that studied well, learned new things, and used her brain to beat challenges rather than the supple batting of eyelashes or a small giggle?

I can't believe I just made that comparison... >_<

That is a complete change of character, not a change of how she looked.

YOU SHOULD INSTEAD READ MY EDIT AS I FEEL THAT IT IS A BETTER POINT.

Like I said though the looks can affect how people perceive you will act. Look at the image below (spoilered for those that don't want to see Ponies). Note: This is someone's interpretation of Equestria Girls, I believe the official art of the film keeps them looking like ponies, just on 2 legs.


All of them look pretty okay right? Look at "Rarity" on the far right. She's wearing a short dress that reveals more than half her thigh, she has (as Ragnar called it), Shampoo-commercial hair, and the look in her eye is not one of the fashion discernable tastes of the Rarity you know from MLP, she looks like she's trying to lure in all of the boys. Looks, whether you want to admit it in this thread or not, matter. Perception matters. You, yourself, stated in another thread that when you go to the game store you shower, put on clean clothes, and your good hat. If how you look doesn't matter, nor influences how people perceive you will act, then why are we talking about the sexualization of a cartoon character, or why people should shower and wear clean clothes when they go out gaming? Because when people walk into their local gaming store and see 300 pound men with holes in their underwear the size and shape of Florida (I kid you not I was "treated" to this while working for Wyrd last summer at GenCon) and the stench of raw onions and sewage, they don't want anything to do with that store. The same thing holds true for people looking for positive role models for their children. When I was growing up, I was allowed to watch almost any cartoon. I was the only person in my 4th grade class that had not seen an episode of South Park. Why? Because my parents didn't want 4th graders with mouths like sailors to be a role model in my life.


Edit: I would like to point out that you are a fan of MLP, a show that has earned praise for not conforming to the standards of "what boys and girls should like/look like." You're sitting here arguing that the change in Merida's character design isn't negative, hows about that jumping of the shark that happened at the end of season 3? Everything has change now that your Twilight Sparkle has wings and is a "Princess" herself. Actually feth that's a damn good point. Speaking of people having their character designs changed. Twilight became one of the Equestrian Princesses at the end of last season, she's no longer the bookish Twilight that everyone knows. Now she's royalty, she's got fething wings (and no longer needs to really rely on that balloon), and is now VASTLY different from her 5 friends... But she had to conform to the standards of what an Equestrian Princess is. Merida is no different in this regard, and the fan backlash isn't either.

Feth, 2 deep analysis of MLP in a single morning. Is 9:40AM too early to start drinking? Because Idk how much longer I can keep treading that pastel colored water...

 azazel the cat wrote:



@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

Give me a break. Frankly a lot of the crap TV shows kids this age watch are a LOT worse in respect to 'how one should look' than any Disney Princess toys/movies/drawings. Kids her age and for the next few years do not need Disney Princesses to apply pressure to look a certain way, the pressure is there regardless from peers and a slew of other sources that don't necessarily have the GOOD lessons associated with them that the Princesses do. And you know, I'll let you in on a little secret. Parenting has a big effect too.

So again, I fail to see the issue. The characters tend to have a certain look for the 'Barbie doll' version, and in my experience little girls like that look (which is fine in my book), and again, that does not negate any of the lessons learned through the character's actions.

Haven't read the thread but to be fair it was likely a change for their park actors. They need the same specifications for all their princesses and would have had to hire people that would only be able to play Merida at their parks. Just my guess on the main reason it was slightly altered.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Haven't read the thread but to be fair it was likely a change for their park actors. They need the same specifications for all their princesses and would have had to hire people that would only be able to play Merida at their parks. Just my guess on the main reason it was slightly altered.

Wrong. Disney has had actors playing Merida since the movie came out. Additionally, actors don't only play princesses. They didn't have to change the genie to put people in a costume.

CptJake wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

Give me a break. Frankly a lot of the crap TV shows kids this age watch are a LOT worse in respect to 'how one should look' than any Disney Princess toys/movies/drawings. Kids her age and for the next few years do not need Disney Princesses to apply pressure to look a certain way, the pressure is there regardless from peers and a slew of other sources that don't necessarily have the GOOD lessons associated with them that the Princesses do. And you know, I'll let you in on a little secret. Parenting has a big effect too.

So again, I fail to see the issue. The characters tend to have a certain look for the 'Barbie doll' version, and in my experience little girls like that look (which is fine in my book), and again, that does not negate any of the lessons learned through the character's actions.

Some girls do like that look. But not all. And a large portion of girls like that look because, from a very early age, they are taught that such a look is "right" and "good"; it is not a natural phenomenon in many, many girls.

And yes, some shows are worse. But that does not make Disney's actions okay. A murderer is not a great guy just because he stands next to a spree killer.

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm not certain if you were trying to come up with the perfect satire of the issue here or not, but you did.



@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

Really? Do you have a daughter?
Mine never had any of that. I will admit she did want a dragon fire gun after watching Mulan, but hey so did I.

Wouldn't Mulan be positive example as she is a strong, independent woman? Unlike Cinderella and Snow White who are completely dependent on others for success (the 7 dwarves, the fairy godmother, the rich prince, etc) and the only things they seem to be valued for is being pretty,

cooking and cleaning.

The ironic part, In cinderella 3, Cinderella actualy becomes very independent and has to fight to get her man back.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm not certain if you were trying to come up with the perfect satire of the issue here or not, but you did.



@CaptJake: I suspect you'll notice what the problem is when your daughter feels pressure to look a certain way in order to fit in, and you recognize said pressure as having been manufactured by Disney.

Really? Do you have a daughter?
Mine never had any of that. I will admit she did want a dragon fire gun after watching Mulan, but hey so did I.

Wouldn't Mulan be positive example as she is a strong, independent woman? Unlike Cinderella and Snow White who are completely dependent on others for success (the 7 dwarves, the fairy godmother, the rich prince, etc) and the only things they seem to be valued for is being pretty,

cooking and cleaning.

Mulan is a postitive role for girls as well, though Disney gets (some) flak because Mulan is wearing that dress that she hated in the film, albeit I thought there was a part in the film where she willingly wore it.

But @Alfndrate, You make a point, Still i think it is a worthless think for a petition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:


Mulan is a postitive role for girls as well, though Disney gets (some) flak because Mulan is wearing that dress that she hated in the film, albeit I thought there was a part in the film where she willingly wore it.

There was, at the end, in her home she wore it. Cant remember why though.

Good thing you can just decide not to sign the petition then...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The ironic part, In cinderella 3, Cinderella actualy becomes very independent and has to fight to get her man back.

Maybe, but is that the version of Cinderella that most people are most familiar with? Also Cinderella has a message to say about little boys as well that being tall, rich and in control is ideal.

Correct, Im just pointing out, The original cinderella, in the movie was nothing more then sitting there, she did rely on others to make her dream come true, that is right.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
cinderella 3

WHY.

 CptJake wrote:
I guess I am missing something, because I don't get it.

What you're missing is that not every situation is like yours. You've made an effort to balance the "pretty" stuff with other things and ensure that your daughter sees "pretty" as just one aspect of a person. However, not all parents are that active in providing role models, imagine a child who gets most of their ideas directly from tv/movies/etc. Now they're left with role models that are based around looking pretty and very little else, to the point that other details about the character have been pushed aside in favor of a generic pretty dress.

Now, obviously this isn't the worst example, but that doesn't make it a good thing. The harmful "your job is to look pretty" problem isn't coming from a single explicit source, it's the result of a constant supply of more subtle messages all adding together. This character change is just one more part of that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I guess I am missing something, because I don't get it.

What you're missing is that not every situation is like yours. You've made an effort to balance the "pretty" stuff with other things and ensure that your daughter sees "pretty" as just one aspect of a person. However, not all parents are that active in providing role models, imagine a child who gets most of their ideas directly from tv/movies/etc. Now they're left with role models that are based around looking pretty and very little else, to the point that other details about the character have been pushed aside in favor of a generic pretty dress.

Now, obviously this isn't the worst example, but that doesn't make it a good thing. The harmful "your job is to look pretty" problem isn't coming from a single explicit source, it's the result of a constant supply of more subtle messages all adding together. This character change is just one more part of that.

Sorry, these are weak arguments in my opinion. Again, the kid sees the movie and gets the role model message from that. A toy or actor in a similar but nicer costume and hair style doesn't take that away. Parents can decide to reinforce the positive aspects.

It sounds like the real issue is parents not being parents. I guess I just don't see it as Disney's (or any other company's) job to raise my kids and can't find much empathy for folks who do. If you allow the 'be pretty for pretty's sake' to be the message your kid gets, that is on you. Nothing Disney nor any other company does or does not do is going to change poor parenting.

Disney is basically undoing everything the movie was marketed to be as far as a strong female role-model is concerned.