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Dang it has been a while.

I'm not exactly an active 40k player. I mostly just play with one group of friends whenever we all happen to be back home at the same time, but...I just noticed the new Tau codex I've been dreaming about actually released a while back. After immediately having an aneurysm over the price of Broadsides and Riptides I decided to pick up the new codex, on the small chance I actually play a game in the near future.

It has been out for a while if I can tell correctly, and I've read some post-launch reviews that said a lot of different stuff concerning what is good/bad. I was just wondering if there's any consensus or at least informed input from you all about how the new book works. I haven't actually bought it (going out for it today) but from what I've heard we have a lot more options now than the "tons of suits, tons of shield drones, minimum fire warrior" strategy I've been using.

I'm kind of sad to hear that Kroot and Vespids haven't really been bulked up. I always really wanted to love Vespids, but I could never justify spending points on them.

So, discuss (or at least shoot me to a link where this has been discussed). I'm putting this in general not tactics because I kind of want more broad scope of how people feel about new Tau as opposed to specific lists/strategies.

The new Tau codex is the best I've ever seen. Impeccable internal balance with the only things I can't see myself ever taking are vespids (maybe in cities of death.) and Aun'shi (A cc ethereal who gives an extra victory point?). The new flyers are a little underwhelming, but that's because they're being compared to helldrakes and vendettas. I can see a list for mech spam, gunline tau and mass suits all being viable. Only thing I can't see is an auxillary army, oh well maybe next time.

Taking devilfish for warfish strategies is now basically impossible. Everything else works and works well. The old riptide vs 3 crisis suits with drones debates get heated, but it's all about play style.

The new kroot with sniper rounds are magical. Since they can use markerlights too, it's magical heresy.

As for how the new book works, it works just like the old book, you need markerlights, and ways to kill things by shooting them. Skyfire on the skyray is great, as is the ability to fire seeker missiles without markerlights (hello 6 missile alpha strike!).

The only thing that the book craps out on is the fliers. They are great for killing infantry but not much else.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Dang it has been a while.

I'm not exactly an active 40k player. I mostly just play with one group of friends whenever we all happen to be back home at the same time, but...I just noticed the new Tau codex I've been dreaming about actually released a while back. After immediately having an aneurysm over the price of Broadsides and Riptides I decided to pick up the new codex, on the small chance I actually play a game in the near future.

It has been out for a while if I can tell correctly, and I've read some post-launch reviews that said a lot of different stuff concerning what is good/bad. I was just wondering if there's any consensus or at least informed input from you all about how the new book works. I haven't actually bought it (going out for it today) but from what I've heard we have a lot more options now than the "tons of suits, tons of shield drones, minimum fire warrior" strategy I've been using.

I'm kind of sad to hear that Kroot and Vespids haven't really been bulked up. I always really wanted to love Vespids, but I could never justify spending points on them.

So, discuss (or at least shoot me to a link where this has been discussed). I'm putting this in general not tactics because I kind of want more broad scope of how people feel about new Tau as opposed to specific lists/strategies.

Theres a lot of coverage on them on my blog if you're interested, but let me say this: Vespids WERE bulked up and Kroot are NOT to be underestimated.

Many people are floating ALL Kroot troop choice lists. The Krootox can now outflank with them. Like all things Tau, in a vacuum, you can really be led to misunderstand their power.

Stingwings are now 100% PERFECT versions of what they should have been to start with. Basically a guaranteed hit and run, they now can alight anywhere without fear as before, they have 4+ armor and they blast Marines into neverneverland on a flank with alacrity and conviction.

The list has to support these units... but then that was always true of Tau. So I really think you should proxy them and try them. I used the old and not-as-good versions of Stingwings for a long time in my lists and now they are just...so much better.

With this codex, you can now play the Tau army you WANT to play instead of one or two builds. CERTAIN online personalities who like to tell everyone they are "doing Warhammer wrong" might disagree, but I am here to say that my TEST list, which I put together just to try the units has turned out to be the only version I've needed! I never even tooled it a lot. I switched a couple models around but I mean... It's pretty interesting the kinds of builds you can pull off now. So much variety.

Wait did I hear that devilfish are bad now?

Wrong. Burst cannon is now 4 shots and the 6E rules treat skimmers more favorably. Its not cheaper which was what people were hoping for, but no. Same price, just a little more firepower. As an aside, the way Gun drones work on it is better now too. Especially Pathfinder ones!

Devilfish weren't good in the last edition either. They're prohibitively expensive and don't work well with their troops. Basically compare it to ghost arks and rhinos/chimeras. Rhinos/chimeras have units with a few special weapons and ghost arks allow the units inside to fire out because they have unit wide good weapons. Tau get neither, even when one of the units (pathfinders) gets some special weapons that would be very useful inside a decently priced transport they could shoot from. It's a combination of both being too expensive and not giving troops what they need that makes it see so little play.

The upgrades are what really bother me about the devilfish. It's already an incredibly expensive transport that carries troops that for all intents and purposes are better off outside the transport. I think the price should have been dropped to atleast allow some upgrades to fit in on the model/unit. The ability to fire S5 weapons in overwatch would actually make a devilfish a great escort unit for something like pathfinders combined with their drones. I think that upgrade should have been free with the transport but only useable for their dedicated troops. They would be fine if they were overcosted and worked with the troops, or didn't work with the troops and were cheap. But with both, they're pretty useless to the army and easily ran without them. Start the count down until someone tries to bring up the virtues of a 95 point mobile terrain piece

To me the codex looks like it was a rushed product, which I think most of the 6th ed codex have that feeling. For example the reliance on a heavy weapon (markerlights) on an infantry unit in the FA slot, where the actual weapon is about the same size as a pistol. Line that Heavy 1 marker up to an Assault 2 carbine which is 5 times the size. Then line that carbine up to a rail rifle which is rapid fire. I'd assume it's for some balance issue, except that markerdrones and tetras really don't seem to be throwing off the balance of anything. Vespid still seem like a unit where they didn't know what they were doing and wanted to update them without having to make a new kit, like firewarriors and kroot. The flyer is just...awkward. The fighter seems like a better bomber, while the bomber seems to be a better fighter.

Basically it looks like they wanted to sell a large kit (riptide), some flyers, and a line of finecast but decided to throw in a single infantry kit in as well to make it seem like a full release.

That being said, I think it's actually done pretty well. Firewarriors are decent, but Kroot seem to have taken the spotlight thanks to sniper rifles and an enviornment that favors FMC/MC. The Riptide is an incredibly fun model to build, paint, and play with. It has pretty much the best damage output and durability in the entire codex and makes the most of the Interceptor and skyfire upgrades. Broadsides have gotten toned down a bit, but I think they're really not as bad as originally feared and often are able to pull their weight even with other entries like the Ion Hammerhead. The hammerheads and skyrays are now both viable options and decently priced. Markerdrones seem to be biggest change for me. I regularly run two commanders with markerdrone squads and it's provided more than enough support for my army. Most of the HQs are actually very useful now with the exception of Aun'shi (apparently brought back because he was a fan favorite and now almost forgotten) and the fireblade which gets outclassed by a cheaper ethereal. The base of the army got a lot stronger and elites are not the backbone of the army anymore. There are several different lists/builds/playstyles while relying on a central theme that make them incredibly fun to play. Has it really been updated the best that it could have been? Not really, but it's still quite good.

 Jancoran wrote:
Wrong. Burst cannon is now 4 shots and the 6E rules treat skimmers more favorably. Its not cheaper which was what people were hoping for, but no. Same price, just a little more firepower. As an aside, the way Gun drones work on it is better now too. Especially Pathfinder ones!

Ok, I was about to say that my devilfish list has been performing admirably.

I play around a 1900 point game against another player, he had brought two fliers, two kroot squads, a riptide, and 3 hammer heads.

Meanwhile I brought 3 piranhas with meltas, 3 10 man squads of fire warriors in devilfish, two crisis suits ( I joined all the piranha drones to them to create a 6 gun drone wall firing at bs5 > ). Two missile sides. An ethereal. And lastly two 7 man pathfinders teams. In the end it was a super close game and we went to the 7th term. In the end the fish list was victorious.

How were you able to join 2 suits to the drones? I'm assumming one was an IC commander, but you wouldn't be able to combine the drones with him if he was already joined to another unit like a bodyguard.

 Nafarious wrote:
Wait did I hear that devilfish are bad now?

Tau vehicles no longer have Multi-trackers or Target locks, and only Hammerhead/Skyray has Targeting array. This basically means that old Mech lists are dead, and few people use many vehicles as suits do everything better.

Mech lists are far from dead, maybe less effective due to the loss of Multi-trackers, but then again vehicles could already fire all of their weapons ( as the current tracker only allow to fire a extra weapon, which is a redundancy on a vehicle ) And i dont understand why a Target lock was so good on them as the current target lock is based on Squads so they can fire at different targets, which Tau vehicles can already do when they release their drones.

I have to agree that Devilfish is a bit expensive with their upgrades ( SMS upgrade, Move through cover, Disruption pod, and other goodies ) quickly make it a expensive transport, but they are not bad just a bit restrictive as they are made to protect your firewarriors, and not being a mobile gunplatform for them. ( I guess their balance is because of the high strenght weapons Tau have on FW and PF )

Wouldnt suprise me if other transports were balanced to follow the pricing of the fish at some point.

It's all about expectations folks.

In my current list, the Devilfish's do the following:

1. maximize the distance I go so that i can take advantage of the Homing Beacon on the enemy's board edge.

2. When not needed to do this, I outflank them, using their speed to gain objectives in the Scouring mission OR contest them with Pathfinders. OR...

3. Use them as cover while my Pathfinders do their grisly work.

4. Tank shocking people who HATE the fact that they have to fire at a damn empty Devilfish.

5. Shoot people. It's not very necessary for this which is why i dont give a hoot about Multitrackers BUT... Yeah it CAN.

6. Block lines of sight. Great for this purpose. Has helpeda great deal a number of times.

Most transports aren;t supposed to BE gunboats with a couple notable exceptions.

But AV12 and 11 on the sides is better than Chimeras, and Chimeras dont get a 5+ just for moving...nor a 4+. Nor a 3+. Chimeras are also not skimmers.

So what you use them FOR is up to you. I have 105 models. I am pretty sure I've lost nothing of significance investing in them that I would have rather had.
.

Out of the entire list, the only thing unique to the Devilfish was the homing beacon. I'll admit that for an outflank heavy army its a decent tactic. I've had some fun with it plenty of times. It's just that its not really a good tank. Compare a mech guard or rhino spam list to firewarriors in Devilfish. It's just a lot of wasted points on units that don't really support their troop.

Chimeras and rhinos however do get special weapon teams. I'm pretty sure they can get dozen blades and the smaller profile is easier to hide while being insanely cheaper.

Dracoknight wrote:
Mech lists are far from dead, maybe less effective due to the loss of Multi-trackers, but then again vehicles could already fire all of their weapons ( as the current tracker only allow to fire a extra weapon, which is a redundancy on a vehicle ) And i dont understand why a Target lock was so good on them as the current target lock is based on Squads so they can fire at different targets, which Tau vehicles can already do when they release their drones.

That's not how they worked, Multi-tracker on vehicles allowed you to fire like a Fast vehicle, it was quite essential. Target lock allowed vehicle to Split fire, it was very useful on tanks due to their very heterogenous armament, not much use on Devilfish. Also it allowed Piranha squadrons to split fire. Basically, Tau vehicles are now just like Imperial vehicles except they float.

yet...not essential if people are winning without it. Essential means essential. Ive seen no proof they were. They were nice to have. Not essential.

I think marker lights being heavy does make sense. It doesn't matter that it in effect is a laser. The point is how it would work. This is quite obviously a play on Infrared/laser targeting IRL.

You pop n drop like a rifle. You have to hold it on the target while the whatever acquires it and targets.

They are heavy to represent the fact they are holding the laser designator on the target while the other unit aquires.

1. maximize the distance I go so that i can take advantage of the Homing Beacon on the enemy's board edge.

2. When not needed to do this, I outflank them, using their speed to gain objectives in the Scouring mission OR contest them with Pathfinders. OR...

3. Use them as cover while my Pathfinders do their grisly work.

4. Tank shocking people who HATE the fact that they have to fire at a damn empty Devilfish.

5. Shoot people. It's not very necessary for this which is why i dont give a hoot about Multitrackers BUT... Yeah it CAN.

6. Block lines of sight. Great for this purpose. Has helpeda great deal a number of times.

I think the issue is that Rhinos do all of that for almost a third of the cost. Yes, they have one pt lower AV, but they can also repair themselves ...
For me, the Devilfish just feels like one of the few (possibly the ONLY) weakly thought out unit in the new codex (which is over-all quite good).

Wouldnt suprise me if other transports were balanced to follow the pricing of the fish at some point.

Considering they already released three books prior to this all with cheap transports I would say this isn't going to happen. At least not in this edition.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
I think marker lights being heavy does make sense. It doesn't matter that it in effect is a laser. The point is how it would work. This is quite obviously a play on Infrared/laser targeting IRL.

You pop n drop like a rifle. You have to hold it on the target while the whatever acquires it and targets.

They are heavy to represent the fact they are holding the laser designator on the target while the other unit aquires.

I always imagned the markerlights to be more like a projectile similar to a flare that you shoot at a target to get a bacon that light up the target on the visual interfaces of the Tau army.

But in the case of being heavy i guess its in fluff meant that you cant properly mark a target when you are running ( in the case of a pathfinder ) and thus have to hold it still on a target to have the full effect, also as a balance thing to let markerlight drones have a bonus over normal pathfinders.

I never understood why people have such a poor grasp of what the markerlight is. Its a laser target designator, much like the ones used by the real world military. The firer of the laser "shoots" a laser beam at the target, when the laser hits the target it refracts/reflects off of it causing it to change wavelength or frequency or whatever the proper term is. Ordnance (such as from an aircraft, etc. in the case of the Tau, a seeker missile) is calibrated to detect the frequency of the refracted laser(otherwise it could just as easily home in on the source of the laser, i.e. the pathfinders) and home in on it for the kill. The target MUST remain illuminated until it is hit by the missile, etc. (well technically only until it enters the terminal guidance phase I suppose, but if you're on the ground you won't know that has occurred anyway, so same difference). Certain advanced missiles will "remember" the location of the target if the laser stops emitting, but this requires the target to remain stationary, and in general will not be as accurate as if it were actively guided in.

Hence, the heavy weapon designation for markerlights. Its heavy because the pathfinder has to remain stationary (or at least move very little) while designating the target and waiting for the seeker missile or whatever to hit.

 Jancoran wrote:
yet...not essential if people are winning without it. Essential means essential. Ive seen no proof they were. They were nice to have. Not essential.

"Nice to have" is more important than "winning".

I for one enjoy the new Tau, everything iv had in the last codex is still relative so i don't have to invest all that much.

Almost everything old still works if not has been buffed. with points reductions, freebees, and or additional options.

the only notable downgrade was in Mech tau, with the loss of multi trackers for general vehicles, and target locks for phranans and tetras (+ targeting arrays).

the new stuff i still need a work on. i have a riptide and its cool and does cool stuff. same with longstrike, and darkstrider. the new flyer looks meh so i wont invest money in it yet.

So actually it's looking like my army list will remain pretty much unchanged then.

HQ: Commander battlesuit with bodyguard

Elites: 2 single man crisis suit teams (I'll add in a riptide instead of the stealth suit team that has been my 3rd elite if I can justify it at all)

Troops: 2 FW squads

Fast Attack: Pathfinder team

Heavy support: 2 single broadside suits and a hammerhead.

that's been pretty much my go to 1500 pt list ever since 6th came out, and I've done quite well with it in friendly games.

That said, if you're counting by points cost, almost 15% of that list is shield drones...

Edited the percentage, I misremembered drones as costing more than they did.

Backfire wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
yet...not essential if people are winning without it. Essential means essential. Ive seen no proof they were. They were nice to have. Not essential.

"Nice to have" is more important than "winning".

I dont think I was making a distinction between the two things. I think i said they weren't essential and that IS true and being proven by those winning without them. Being fun or not fun is another discussion.