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So, been toying with units that I don't normally use in my Space Wolves lists. Basically wanting to keep things fresh and make sure I don't get into too deep of a rut. Most of what I found online regarding Land Speeders is that they are complete garbage in 6th Edition due to having only 2 Hull Points. I believe(d) this myself. Pretty much only thought of them as floating weapon platforms hovering in your back line. I realize now that I've been thinking about them all wrong, particularly considering they are one of the few places for me to take Heavy Weapons of any kind.

So we have three types: Land Speeders, Land Speeder Tornadoes, Land Speeder Typhoons. The only real differences being Land Speeders have only 1 weapon, Tornadoes have 2 weapons, and Typhoons (of which you can only take one of in a Squadron it seems) have 2 weapons: Missile Launchers and another weapon. All of them are AV 10 and 2 HP and are Fast Skimmers who can Deep Strike.

So these guys:
- Can move 12", ignoring Difficult/Dangerous/Impassable Terrain unless landing or taking off from it.
- They get to fire all of their guns at full Ballistic Skill if they move at Combat or Cruising Speed.
- If Deep Striking they count as moving at Cruising Speed.
- Can Flat Out move in the Shooting Phase for up to 18".
- If they move at all they get a 5+ Cover Save, if they move Flat Out they get a 4+ Cover Save.

So exceptionally mobile and should always be shooting to full effect usually. The only worry is how much they can take. So ran some numbers. Let's say, hypothetically, that you Deep Strike and Scatter into Rapid Fire, nay Melta, range of a full 10-man Tactical Squad. Let's say a Combi-Melta, Meltagun, and Missile Launcher.

- 7 Boltguns, Rapid Fire for 14 shots. Factoring in AV 10 and your Jink save you end up taking 0.52 Glancing Hits
- 1 Meltagun, 1 Combi-Melta for 2 shots. Factoring in AV 10, Melta, and your Jink save you end up taking 0.02 Glancing Hits and 0.86 Penetrating Hits
- 1 Krak Missile shot. Factoring in AV 10 and your Jink save you end up taking 0.07 Glancing Hits and 0.30 Penetrating Hits
- Total of 0.61 Glancing and 1.16 Penetrating Hits

What does it all mean? Well, in that close to worst-case scenario a single Land Speeder as a little over 50% chance of being destroyed outright. With 2 Melta shots, most likely Exploded! but possibly Wrecked. It is definitely losing a Hull Point.

But what if we take more than one? Well, the new Squadron rules mean that all damage is taken on the closest Land Speeder until its destroyed. So, unless the opponent is lucky, we're only maybe losing one Land Speeder from our Squadron. The unit as a whole will survive. But considering most of the weapons (Heavy Flamer, Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta) mean you are willingly flying into potential Rapid Fire range at least once... Well, you definitely better fly them in Squadrons unless you keep them back.

For grins I did a few other scenarios:

- 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons at BS 3 will get 0.25 Glancing Hits and 1.25 Penetrating Hits.
- 1 BS 4 S 8 shot will get 0.07 Glancing and 0.30 Penetrating Hits. If its Melta that turns into 0.01 Glancing and 0.43 Penetrating Hits.

That's some serious anti-tank firepower. It shouldn't be focused at your Land Speeders unless A) you are a credible threat or B) all your other vehicles went kablooey already. In a hybrid list like I'm likely to play, I won't have the armor saturation so I can expect to face these eventually.

So it seems to me that you either want to run them in cheap Squadrons of 2 or solo as mobile Missile platforms:

Land Speeder Squadron - 140 points (2 w/ Multi-Melta & Heavy Flamer or x2 Heavy Flamer or x2 Heavy Bolter or bump them to 160 points for x2 Multi-Melta)
Land Speeder Squadron - 90 Points (1 w/ Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher)


So what is your guys' opinion. It seems to me that Land Speeders aren't as bad as people make them out to be in 6th edition, but that they still aren't amazing units. They can't be generalist units, either anti-Infantry or anti-Tank, unless you want to spend too many points. And if they go anywhere near the enemy you need multiples if you want to get off more than a single shot.

I guess considering I could take a Las/Plas Razorback for ~75 points, even in my 10 man Grey Hunter squads if I wanted, I'm having trouble figuring out if they are worth looking further at.

Autocannons are especially vicious at bringing down landspeeders. Land speeders aren't in my lists.

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons are especially vicious at bringing down landspeeders. Land speeders aren't in my lists.

i dont understand what makes an autocannon especially dangerous to landspeeders?

2 shots which glance on 3+. An Aegis Autocannon is certainly going to have fun anyway.

And range 48". 2HP just stink.

A single BS 4 Autocannon is getting only 0.44 Penetrating Hits and 0.15 Glancing. A HWS decked with Autocannons (so 3 at BS 3) is getting 1.00 Penetrating and 0.33 Glancing Hits. BID! boosts it to 1.50 Penetrating and 0.50 Glancing. A Quad Gun from a Fortification would do slightly worse than this (4 shots vs 6), or comparable with a better BS than 3.

So 3 Autocannons fired by Guardsmen are likely taking out only 1 Hull Point, unless a CCS issues them an order to get Twin-Linked. Then its more like 2 Hull Points, and one of the two scary Orders is spent killing Land Speeders instead of a different unit....

So it really seems like if you take Land Speeders they need to be taken at least in Squadrons of 2, if not all 3. Otherwise you may as well not bother at all.

They'd also be useful in Mech lists where you want to draw fire away from Rhinos/Razorbacks. Squadrons of Land Speeders can eat up a surprising number of Autocannons, IMO.

The issue is that they're a bit pricey for what they accomplish. Compare to, say, a Tau Piranha, which is an excellent vehicle. A Piranha gets 8 s5 shots that it can fire on the move at 18", has a front av11, can be taken in squads of up to 5, and is only 40 points each.

Landspeeders are probably best staying as cheap as possible, otherwise you dump a lot of points into a vehicle that, while more durable than many would think, is also still pretty fragile. 12 FW will take out a landspeeder with room to spare just by rapidfiring, without even needing markerlights.

I run them a pair of them atm with Typhoon/HBs, and they are great for tearing down MCs or the like.

Used to run 3, but traded one in for an Aegis line w/ Icarus. Been working pretty well.

While not very competitive,they make for a good distraction and can complement aggressive list well.
Your opponent can rarely afford to ignore them, sure if they focus fire them they will melt but it makes for a difficult choice if you are landing a few pods while taking position with your speeders.
I like the MM/HF and MM/TML setups,They can threaten vehicules and infantry alike so they make a credible threat.
The idea is to use the distraction to achieve something,on their own they might not be worth it ,but they really mess target priority against some armies while others will just see them as free KP.

Land speeders die easily. This no one will question. where I find they work is in an army that presents bigger targets to draw fire. Im enjoying a biker army at the moment and people are far more concerned by my 20 odd bikes in their face than my land speeder typhoon

I find Land Speeders great! I have a HF on mine and against nids n orks it's 2+ to wound with no save!

 TechmarineNic wrote:
I find Land Speeders great! I have a HF on mine and against nids n orks it's 2+ to wound with no save!

No, it wounds orks on a 3+. If you're going to state the obvious...at least get it correct.

The only viable option I see is the suicide speeder. One deep striking to multimelt something or flame something in cover. Other than that other units do their job better for cheaper.

 Valkyrie wrote:
2 shots which glance on 3+. An Aegis Autocannon is certainly going to have fun anyway.

If an Aegis Quadgun is shooting at your speeders, you've done something wrong.
I almost always take a few Typhoons in my DA lists, they're great.

Probably the greatest defence any skimmer has is its speed, it can stay out of range of the guns it wants to avoid, or can hide from weapons with longer range.

The Land Speeder is probably not that good at that job though, as it weapons are for close range (multimelta, heavy flamer), although you have the option of giving it missle launchers (right?).

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:


If an Aegis Quadgun is shooting at your speeders, you've done something wrong.

Not really. I can think of multiple situations in which I'd shoot a quadgun at a speeder:

1)If you're bringing a quadgun as part of a TAC list and your opponent brings no fliers, shooting at speeders is a perfectly valid option.
2)It's turn one
3) The flier(s) don't make it out of reserves
4) The flier(s) died to my other interceptor weapons
5) The flier positioned in such a way that it's in cover
6) I'm playing orks/foot guard/insert horde list here and a speeder with two heavy flamers is more of a threat than a Vendetta.

I'm sure I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

cowmonaut wrote:
So 3 Autocannons fired by Guardsmen are likely taking out only 1 Hull Point, unless a CCS issues them an order to get Twin-Linked. Then its more like 2 Hull Points, and one of the two scary Orders is spent killing Land Speeders instead of a different unit....

And here's the problem with your analysis: the AC HWS is the same price as a Land Speeder, and does 1-2 HP worth of damage. So for every Land Speeder you bring I can bring a HWS that kills it, and then my units get to shoot the rest of your army.

 Peregrine wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
So 3 Autocannons fired by Guardsmen are likely taking out only 1 Hull Point, unless a CCS issues them an order to get Twin-Linked. Then its more like 2 Hull Points, and one of the two scary Orders is spent killing Land Speeders instead of a different unit....

And here's the problem with your analysis: the AC HWS is the same price as a Land Speeder, and does 1-2 HP worth of damage. So for every Land Speeder you bring I can bring a HWS that kills it, and then my units get to shoot the rest of your army.

To be fair, what happens when a HF template gets slapped down on your HWS, or they eat a HB and a pair of missiles? I'm not a mathhammer guy, but I suspect it wouldn't be pretty.

That said, the AC's main job is popping light vehicles. It they weren't able to swat speeders out of the sky, I'd be worried. Classic LS survival tricks still work. Keep out of LOS of things that can kill you (like AC teams) Don't let stuff in range unless you have to. Make sure you hang out in a list with bigger threats. Armor saturation is their biggest defense.

They are fragile, and always have been. HPs didn't really change that. I think 6th has been kind to them overall, with the jink save and the changes to how weapons are fired on the move. To be perfectly honest, I think attack bikes are a bit better then speeders these days, and fill a similar role. But speeders can still work, so if you like them, fly them.

Land speeders with typhoon launchers are so expensive that it is well worth the time and effort to focus them down. They take away from model count and so there are fewer targets in general. This is the same kind of problem that the Stormraven has: it's so expensive, that the opponent can justify shooting all kinds of stuff at it and he's still doing okay on efficiency of fire.

Just for example: a squadron of three speeders with typhoon is more expensive than a predator. So guess whom my Sternguards with melta are going to visit? I can kill more points by dropping on the speeders and slagging the whole squadron with melta.

If the choice is that obvious then the speeders arn't used right...that being said there might not be a right way to use them at higher level of play.
You have to present multiple threats for them to be effective...a single predator doesn't fit that description.A few pods with sterns or dreads supported by razorbacks, rhinos or bikes might do the trick.
The point is they can drop your speeders, dreads, stern or bikes or whatever else you use but not all of them, whichever they ignore will inflict damage.
I did not see much change to their durability in sixth ...they never had much to begin with.
Of course against an army that can treat all the threats you can present at the same time you are screwed.

@Martel; you would be much more likely to drop your sterns out of reach of any other useful targets because speeders are much more mobile than preds so there is no need to deploy them near your other units or objectives.

I haven't had a problem with that, ever. Remember that Sternguards even have an extra range ammo. I'll probably choose to frag the typhoon launchers every time unless the table is crazy huge. If I do this on turn 1, I've got plenty of time to foot slog.

The problem is that speeders are disproportionately easy to bring down for their price. They are almost always better choice than pounding through AV 13 or T5 W2 3+ bikes.

Actually Land Speeders got a little stronger in 6th, if you run them in Squadrons. In 5th, three Glances/Pens had a good chance of destroying 2 of them if not all three. In 6th that will leave you with one dead and a good chance of a second one intact.
I have been running 3 Typhoons with Heavy Bolters and the have done a great job as my Medium to Long Range fire support. When combined with a Long Fang Pack and a Rifleman Dread I can deal with most AV 11/12/13 list.

I have been thinking about making a Ravenwing Support Squadron loaded the same way. It should take more 10 Glances Pens to take out when taking into account Saves.

I run Dual MM speeders in my Vulcan list. They excel at taking down any vehicles and even Flyers. I find them to be surprisingly durable as well, I run Eldar allies so the Wave Serpents and Night Spinner are always the bigger targets.

I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

The thing landspeeders have going for them, is their cheapness over other vehicles. You can run multiples for the cost of one tank, and while yes, you will lose some, you have enough to know that some will survive most of the time.

For the price of a landraider, you can have 4 landspeeders with 2 heavy bolters each. Yes, the landraider is more survivable technically, but one good hit and its all gone, wheras with landspeeders, they will have enough to keep going and annoying people untill each one is gone. They also have less to worry about from assault's with powerfists or other anti-tank melee, as they can avoid such unit's much more effectively.

It depends on your enemy. Against a shooting army like tau or guard, i'd go with the landraider. Against an assault army like orks, daemons, e.x, i'd go with the speeders every time.

Against marine-based armies, it depends on their list.

What about TAC lists? Do they make the cut for your TAC list? Tailored situations are completely different. So it can't "depend on the enemy", because most of the time you don't have a priori knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

Needing to roll "6"s against cheap transports is a crap situation in my opinion. This makes heavy bolters passable against Chimera sides, but not Rhino or Devilfish sides to me. I like to shoot heavy bolters at infantry, not vehicles.

Martel732 wrote:
What about TAC lists? Do they make the cut for your TAC list? Tailored situations are completely different. So it can't "depend on the enemy", because most of the time you don't have a priori knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

Needing to roll "6"s against cheap transports is a crap situation in my opinion. This makes heavy bolters passable against Chimera sides, but not Rhino or Devilfish sides to me. I like to shoot heavy bolters at infantry, not vehicles.

In the TAC list, you should have a combination of both light vehicles, and heavy vehicles. So in a TAC list, I would take 3 landspeeders, and at least one "heavy" tank

Martel732 wrote:
What about TAC lists? Do they make the cut for your TAC list? Tailored situations are completely different. So it can't "depend on the enemy", because most of the time you don't have a priori knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

Needing to roll "6"s against cheap transports is a crap situation in my opinion. This makes heavy bolters passable against Chimera sides, but not Rhino or Devilfish sides to me. I like to shoot heavy bolters at infantry, not vehicles.

True, but with the Heavy Bolter/Typhoon you can do both.

 Evileyes wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about TAC lists? Do they make the cut for your TAC list? Tailored situations are completely different. So it can't "depend on the enemy", because most of the time you don't have a priori knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

Needing to roll "6"s against cheap transports is a crap situation in my opinion. This makes heavy bolters passable against Chimera sides, but not Rhino or Devilfish sides to me. I like to shoot heavy bolters at infantry, not vehicles.

In the TAC list, you should have a combination of both light vehicles, and heavy vehicles. So in a TAC list, I would take 3 landspeeders, and at least one "heavy" tank

But the landspeeders are directly competing with attack bikes for the FA slot. Could I seriously use a landspeeder over an attack bike? The attack bikes are ~twice as resilient to autocannon fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What about TAC lists? Do they make the cut for your TAC list? Tailored situations are completely different. So it can't "depend on the enemy", because most of the time you don't have a priori knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I admit jink is nice, but STR 6/7 ROF 2+ is way too common in 6th edition. However, I also admit that if you opponent cheaps out on 48" firepower, the typhoon launchers can be brutal. That's like 6 mobile MLs; much better than a devastator squad. They can get side shots and all kinds of grimness.

I have been finding that the Heavy Bolters can do the job against the Side/Rear Armor on a lot of vehicles.

Needing to roll "6"s against cheap transports is a crap situation in my opinion. This makes heavy bolters passable against Chimera sides, but not Rhino or Devilfish sides to me. I like to shoot heavy bolters at infantry, not vehicles.

True, but with the Heavy Bolter/Typhoon you can do both.

On a typhoon speeder, the heavy bolter is likely a side show against vehicles. Ideally, you will be hitting from outside heavy bolter range to minimize return fire. In fact, I might put the flamer on typhoon speeders in case I need to root out guys in cover.