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Martel732 wrote:
On a typhoon speeder, the heavy bolter is likely a side show against vehicles. Ideally, you will be hitting from outside heavy bolter range to minimize return fire. In fact, I might put the flamer on typhoon speeders in case I need to root out guys in cover.

I actually use my Land Speeders in the Anti-Infantry Role [My Meta does not have a lot of Tanks].
The only time we field any with a Heavy Flamer is along with a Multi-Meltas in a Vulcan List.

I fond in 6th the Heavy Flamer is mostly a Death Trap for Land Speeders with how easy it is to hit with Krak Grenades. If you fail to take out the target unit you open your self to Assaults.

Well, krak grenades are most often found on marines. A heavy flamer is not a fantastic choice against marines anyway. Remember, in a TAC list I'm also thinking about Eldar and Orks and other lists that can take very good advantage of cover. In the right situations, I can cause way more damage with a single turn of heavy flamer fire than an entire game of heavy bolter fire. You fire krak missiles until you are out of targets and then go in for the flamer hits.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, krak grenades are most often found on marines. A heavy flamer is not a fantastic choice against marines anyway. Remember, in a TAC list I'm also thinking about Eldar and Orks and other lists that can take very good advantage of cover. In the right situations, I can cause way more damage with a single turn of heavy flamer fire than an entire game of heavy bolter fire. You fire krak missiles until you are out of targets and then go in for the flamer hits.

I think both are great options.

What I think is odd it that there has been no talk about Assault Cannons.

Landspeeders can only operate well if you provide plenty of other targets to shoot.

In my 1500 list, my opponent has to choose between a pair of Vindicators, a Contemptor Mortis, three Rhinos (well, if you are going for important targets, Rhinos aren't up there) and a pair of speeders, for my armor.

If you are going to shoot my Speeders, which are hovering behind my tanks on turn 1, or after they've moved, i'm fine with that. Over all, their Damage potential is probably a bit lower than a Vindicator and most definitely my Mortis.

Part my lack of familiarity with Forgeworld, but what's the armor on a Contemptor Mortis? And what does it do? Because in the lists I try to field, I'll be targeting the Vindicators and landspeeders with different kinds of weapons, so there is little overlap.

As for assault cannons, I'm not crazy about the 24" range for a landspeeder. Actually, I think I have dropped assault cannons out of all my BA lists in general. My shooty terminators pack heavy flamers, and my razors are TL HF or las/plas. I'm not even sure I'd use them in a vanilla marine list because the razors there can get TL lascannons. I guess the assault cannon doesn't fill a niche that I consider worth filling in my lists.

So far my double heavy flamer landspeeder has proved far more effective than my Typhoon/HB one, possibly because my opponents always go for the Typhoon first...

However in five games, it's killed more than it's worth in three of them - unlike my Typhoon which has yet to manage this!

The heavy flamer is a great weapon in 6th. Doesn't roll to hit and ignores cover and 4+ armor.

If land speeders land anywhere near my HQ from deep strike, they'll take on average a glance and two penetrating hits from Stefan alone. With a very good chance of him getting in 4 hits..

If they have nothing better to shoot at, the Hive Guard will absolutely murder those Speeders as well. So please, do bring them.

Why not just park Sammael (spl?) in a squad of LSs and get him to take all the hits? He has a 14/14/10 Land Speeder..

Against tau LSs are a foolish choice. With one tetra or pathfinder sqd there gonnna marker light it & blast it with a Seeker Missle or 2. The SMs hit on 2s, don't need los & ignore cover saves. I gaurantee you will have no LSs by the end of turn 2.

 RedAngel wrote:
Against tau LSs are a foolish choice. With one tetra or pathfinder sqd there gonnna marker light it & blast it with a Seeker Missle or 2. The SMs hit on 2s, don't need los & ignore cover saves. I gaurantee you will have no LSs by the end of turn 2.

Assuming there are not more "Important" Targets.

When opponent saw my Land Speeder he practicaly clapped for joy. It was an easy First Blood. Easier than a rhino, in fact. Other than a ridiculously simple victory point the only other thing LSs will provide is a few missle shots against devilfish or tetras. Just by moving a sqd of FWs forward they'll likely drill your LSs. The only thing that may save you is hovering at 37'' & only using the MLs, & being less of a threat. In which case your wasting heavy weapons. If you squadron your LSs the tau will DEFINETLY spend the 4 marker lights to anhilate 200+ points so easily.

 RedAngel wrote:
When opponent saw my Land Speeder he practicaly clapped for joy. It was an easy First Blood. Easier than a rhino, in fact. Other than a ridiculously simple victory point the only other thing LSs will provide is a few missle shots against devilfish or tetras. Just by moving a sqd of FWs forward they'll likely drill your LSs. The only thing that may save you is hovering at 37'' & only using the MLs, & being less of a threat. In which case your wasting heavy weapons. If you squadron your LSs the tau will DEFINETLY spend the 4 marker lights to anhilate 200+ points so easily.

That's grand. That's like saying taking Rhinos against Tyranids are stupid, because you don't want to be moving towards the giant monsters. Other than the fact I built my list to fight against any opponent, rather than just the one.

Why wouldn't you hover your Speeders on your board edge, or, if you are going second, in reserve? Obviously if you are placing your speeders forward and handing them to him, he deserves that FB more than you. Not to mention, if you *are* going second, I'm sure on a board with decent terrain you can find a place to hide the things from most enemy fire.

And if he's going to pour a whole bunch of fire from his army into them, fine. Anything dies if fire gets poured into it.

Crazyterran wrote:

 RedAngel wrote:
When opponent saw my Land Speeder he practicaly clapped for joy. It was an easy First Blood. Easier than a rhino, in fact. Other than a ridiculously simple victory point the only other thing LSs will provide is a few missle shots against devilfish or tetras. Just by moving a sqd of FWs forward they'll likely drill your LSs. The only thing that may save you is hovering at 37'' & only using the MLs, & being less of a threat. In which case your wasting heavy weapons. If you squadron your LSs the tau will DEFINETLY spend the 4 marker lights to anhilate 200+ points so easily.

That's grand. That's like saying taking Rhinos against Tyranids are stupid, because you don't want to be moving towards the giant monsters. Other than the fact I built my list to fight against any opponent, rather than just the one.

Why wouldn't you hover your Speeders on your board edge, or, if you are going second, in reserve? Obviously if you are placing your speeders forward and handing them to him, he deserves that FB more than you. Not to mention, if you *are* going second, I'm sure on a board with decent terrain you can find a place to hide the things from most enemy fire.

And if he's going to pour a whole bunch of fire from his army into them, fine. Anything dies if fire gets poured into it.

Also what about the Pod-Wolves coming in, along with the Long Fangs behind the ADL and the Rifleman Dead that was already there.

Land Speeders are part of the whole strategy not just a target. If you put a bunch of Markerlight on my Land Speeders and a second squad to kill them off that’s fine with me, that leaves something else not being shot at.

And what about the Riptides & the Hammerheads & the Broadsides & Skyrays & the Icecream Man & Santa Claus manning the Aegis Defense Lasagna? Its all a part of the TAU strategy & a well balanced breakfast!

All things being equal the Land Speeder is an AV10 2sp vehicle. There's no army that's going to have diffuculty swating that thing out of the air. The tau will arguably have the easiest time of any opponent killing a LS.

 RedAngel wrote:
And what about the Riptides & the Hammerheads & the Broadsides & Skyrays & the Icecream Man & Santa Claus manning the Aegis Defense Lasagna? Its all a part of the TAU strategy & a well balanced breakfast!

All things being equal the Land Speeder is an AV10 2sp vehicle. There's no army that's going to have diffuculty swating that thing out of the air. The tau will arguably have the easiest time of any opponent killing a LS.

By that statement every unit is junk. Well run Land Speeders can prove to be a thorn in anybody’s side until a concerted effort is mad to take them out.
Three coming out of Deep Strike each with Multi-Meltas [Twin Linked with Vulcan] could easily wreck Vehicle or MC quickly. By that a successful use of Heavy Flamers can take out Pathfinders without a second though.

We can sit here and Tit-For-Tat this all day long, but I would like to get back on track and say Land Speeders have gotten tougher mostly due to would allocation.
Back in 5th edition it would take only three shots to kill off three speeders if not disable them. In 6th you need 3-6 to take them out.

Your assertion that there has been a 100% increase in the toughness of LSs is malarky. If an opponent only shoots at your LSs with weapons of YOUR choice, then & only then does a LS become tougher to kill. Comparing the toughness of a LS against all the possible weapons systems that fire at it is misleading. Comparing the survivability of heavy weapons using units, one to another is a more accurate comparison of the LSs new staying power. A vindicators toughness versus a LS's is a fairer comparison.

 RedAngel wrote:
Your assertion that there has been a 100% increase in the toughness of LSs is malarky. If an opponent only shoots at your LSs with weapons of YOUR choice, then & only then does a LS become tougher to kill. Comparing the toughness of a LS against all the possible weapons systems that fire at it is misleading. Comparing the survivability of heavy weapons using units, one to another is a more accurate comparison of the LSs new staying power. A vindicators toughness versus a LS's is a fairer comparison.

Actually it’s more like this.
5th Edition: You hit a Land Speeder Squadron with 3 Weapons, let’s say we get 2 Pens and a Glance.
Land Speeder #1: Takes a Crew Shaken Effect from the Glance
Land Speeder #2: Immobilized
Land Speeder #3: Exploded
Making the remaining two easy Targets next Turn with only one that can shoot

Now in 6th the exact same rolls: Assuming you are going to have the Pens go 1st.
Land Speeder #1: is immobilized [-1 HP] , and then Destroyed
Land Speed #2: Glance [-1 HP]
I still have 2 Land Speeders left

Or

Land Speeder #1: Explodes
Land Speeder #2: Immobilized [-1 HP], then the Glance [-1 HP] and is now Wrecked
I still have 1 Land Speeder left

When an opponent fields landspeeders on the table at the beginning of the game, it's like free first blood, served up on a silver platter.

I have a question for everyone.
Are your opinions base on real experiance or mathhammer

 Anpu42 wrote:
5th Edition: You hit a Land Speeder Squadron with 3 Weapons, let’s say we get 2 Pens and a Glance.
Land Speeder #1: Takes a Crew Shaken Effect from the Glance
Land Speeder #2: Immobilized
Land Speeder #3: Exploded
Making the remaining two easy Targets next Turn with only one that can shoot

One, actually, since immobilized vehicles in a squadron are wrecked. So that 5th edition scenario is a lot worse. On the other hand in 5th you could also have 3 glances (since speeders attract lots of STR 4-6 shooting which is likely to glance)

Land Speeder #1: Takes a Crew Shaken Effect from the Glance
Land Speeder #2:Takes a Stunned (down to Shaken) Effect from the Glance
Land Speeder #3: Takes a Weapon Destroyed Effect from the Glance

So now you have three speeders alive but damaged, you move them flat out into a safe place (where your opponent might ignore them since there are more immediate threats to deal with), and next turn you come back with 2.5 speeders worth of firepower. But in 6th you have one destroyed and one damaged, which is a lot worse.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a question for everyone.
Are your opinions base on real experiance or mathhammer

I normally run one or two speeders in my list. I deploy them out of LOS if I'm going second, and tend to get more first bloods then I give out. Suicide speeders are still the same, If fate determines they live, so be it. No real change from 5th. My MM or MM/HF speeders always run solo, so the changes to wounds and squadrons didn't effect them.

My typhoon speeders last a surprisingly long time. They are solid damage, but never seem to find their way to the top of my opponents's fire queue. I've run them in singles and pairs. One game they did draw the ire of an IG autocannon squad, took 4 hits, and made all their jink saves, but that was a fluke. Next round one got shot down and the other immobilized. Still worth the points.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a question for everyone.
Are your opinions base on real experiance or mathhammer

I normally run one or two speeders in my list. I deploy them out of LOS if I'm going second, and tend to get more first bloods then I give out. Suicide speeders are still the same, If fate determines they live, so be it. No real change from 5th. My MM or MM/HF speeders always run solo, so the changes to wounds and squadrons didn't effect them.

My typhoon speeders last a surprisingly long time. They are solid damage, but never seem to find their way to the top of my opponents's fire queue. I've run them in singles and pairs. One game they did draw the ire of an IG autocannon squad, took 4 hits, and made all their jink saves, but that was a fluke. Next round one got shot down and the other immobilized. Still worth the points.

This has been my experiances so far

Typhoon speeders are gold if people cheap out on 48" firepower. However, they are massive liabilities if the opponent can effectively return fire. I don't hate them, I just think that attack bikes are a better value.

My Typhoon speeders rarely die in games. They usually last most of the game. Of course, if they get focus fired, they go down, but the Jink save deters people, for some reason.

Of course if I move them up my opponent finds fire to take them down, but between the pair of vindicators, contemptor mortis, and rhinos filled with marines waiting to take objectives...

Guys I was thinking to take 2 Speeders with Typhoon/HB in my game against IG. Their missiles could provide some good AT (or I could harass some 5+ armour Guardsmen with blasts and HB) but I also fear that IG has too much long-range support so they'll be shot too quickly. What do you think?

At 75 points for dark angel typhoons is amazing, but suffer just like flyers if you've nothing else that are high threat to shoot at.

BronzeJon wrote:
At 75 points for dark angel typhoons is amazing, but suffer just like flyers if you've nothing else that are high threat to shoot at.

This