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Jstncloud wrote:my speed bump options are FWs

/thread.

Your problems have to do with fieldcraft, not an imbalance in army lists.

 Ailaros wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:my speed bump options are FWs

/thread.

Your problems have to do with fieldcraft, not an imbalance in army lists.

In other words "Jstncloud just read what other people are saying I'll just make another one liner."

In response to the others, thanks for being calm throughout my frustration with the daemon units, still waiting to hear comments on utilizing the skyshield as defensive fortification from range and melee.

I don't think the Skyshield would be a good addition. More expensive than the Defense Line for the same save (4+ invul or cover) and doesn't come with a gun. Also, since it's technically not "ruins", I'm not sure if it would prevent his cavalry from charging you.

A minor note on shooting him - you should always be able to rapid fire or get away from him. If he's outside of rapid fire (16" or further), you can back up 6" and still shoot. That would put you a minimum of 22" away (plus removing closest models) and he has to make at least a 10" charge before overwatch.

Another little trick to try - minimum sized units with good spacing. Of course, this would hurt your markerlights, but you could split your 36 Fire Warriors into 5 units (12, 6, 6, 6, 6?) and keep them around 6" apart (difficult to multi-assault). Let his expensive beasts tear through your 54 point unit. Same for his Pink Horrors (shooting unit).

What are your thoughts on vehicles? Piranhas seem like they could be a good choice. Free units of Drones to block his charges, good firepower, extremely cheap, very fast, his shooting isn't very good at hurting them.

Well, the solution for the problem is simple:
- Get Fire Warriors (40-50), Ethereals (1 is enough), Riptides (3) and Pathfinders (20-30), so stuff a Tau army should have
- Castle up behind an Aegis Defense Line
- Enjoy your victory!

For 1500 points my WAAC list looks like this:
- Ethereal
- 4x10 Fire Warriors (naked)
- 3x Riptides (Stimulant Injector, TL Fusion Blaster, Ion Accelerator, EWO)
- 3x7 Pathfinders
- Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
- Aegis Defense Line (bare)
I've played against daemons many times with this list, and always tabled my opponent around Turn 3 or 4.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Well, the solution for the problem is simple:
- Get Fire Warriors (40-50), Ethereals (1 is enough), Riptides (3) and Pathfinders (20-30), so stuff a Tau army should have
- Castle up behind an Aegis Defense Line
- Enjoy your victory!

For 1500 points my WAAC list looks like this:
- Ethereal
- 4x10 Fire Warriors (naked)
- 3x Riptides (Stimulant Injector, TL Fusion Blaster, Ion Accelerator, EWO)
- 3x7 Pathfinders
- Sky Ray (Disruption Pod)
- Aegis Defense Line (bare)
I've played against daemons many times with this list, and always tabled my opponent around Turn 3 or 4.

Definitely considering getting an ethereal (gonna be a proxy until I can get one ordered) however I've refrained from getting 3 riptides (own one) simply to keep my list using different units and being enjoyable to play as well as enjoyable to play against. Currently have 6 stealth suits, 3 crisis suits, and a riptide for my elite options. I have 16-ish pathfinders and some Hazard Suits for fast attack (though in 6th ed the Hazards are more for 'fun'). For heavies I have 1 3-man unit of broadsides and 2 hammerheads. Considering getting one of the tau flyers (the one with the ion weapon) simply because it'd be a nice str 8 template to toss around and with the defenses that accompany a flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Siphen wrote:
I don't think the Skyshield would be a good addition. More expensive than the Defense Line for the same save (4+ invul or cover) and doesn't come with a gun. Also, since it's technically not "ruins", I'm not sure if it would prevent his cavalry from charging you.

A minor note on shooting him - you should always be able to rapid fire or get away from him. If he's outside of rapid fire (16" or further), you can back up 6" and still shoot. That would put you a minimum of 22" away (plus removing closest models) and he has to make at least a 10" charge before overwatch.

Another little trick to try - minimum sized units with good spacing. Of course, this would hurt your markerlights, but you could split your 36 Fire Warriors into 5 units (12, 6, 6, 6, 6?) and keep them around 6" apart (difficult to multi-assault). Let his expensive beasts tear through your 54 point unit. Same for his Pink Horrors (shooting unit).

What are your thoughts on vehicles? Piranhas seem like they could be a good choice. Free units of Drones to block his charges, good firepower, extremely cheap, very fast, his shooting isn't very good at hurting them.

I've got 2 hammerheads. If I was going to get the Piranhas I'd probably just hit up Forge World Tetras to be honest. As for the sky shield, I was thinking if I had that many firewarriors up there that I could prevent any reasonable assaults (if he can even assault onto the top of it). In addition I believe it gives an invuln rather than a cover save so against anti cover shots/flamers I'd still be getting a good save.

The Ethereal is a necessity to a shooty Tau build. The only other option for a decent Tau army is a Farsight build with outflanking/infiltrating kroots as troops.

Not taking an Ethereal is like eldar not taking Runes of Warding, tyranids not taking tervigons or necrons not taking flyers. You are really missing out on the single most important unit in the dex (yes, even more important than the riptide).

 Jstncloud wrote:

Definitely considering getting an ethereal (gonna be a proxy until I can get one ordered) however I've refrained from getting 3 riptides (own one) simply to keep my list using different units and being enjoyable to play as well as enjoyable to play against. Currently have 6 stealth suits, 3 crisis suits, and a riptide for my elite options. I have 16-ish pathfinders and some Hazard Suits for fast attack (though in 6th ed the Hazards are more for 'fun'). For heavies I have 1 3-man unit of broadsides and 2 hammerheads. Considering getting one of the tau flyers (the one with the ion weapon) simply because it'd be a nice str 8 template to toss around and with the defenses that accompany a flyer.

Well, you will need at least 2 Riptides. Don't even bother to bring less. 2 or 0, that's the Tau way (with a few exceptions, but the Riptide is not amongst them). Also, you have way too few Pathfinders. Get at least 10 more. 16 is very sub-optimal. And yes, it means that you will probably fill up the FA with Pathfinders, so forget the flyer (it is pretty crappy anyways). I guess you have Ionheads and Missilesides, those things can stay. Otherwise, if you have Railheads and Railsides, then change them ASAP.

Thread summary:

OP: I keep getting trounced by a local Daemon player. What can I do?

Everyone: Take any number of appropriate units and use them in ways that allow you to deal with Daemons.

OP: No!

Yea I noticed too that jstncloud keeps asking for advice then argues with the players trying to help him. Let him continue losing until he learns how to listen.

squads of 20 Pink horrors puts out a ton of shots when you add to level III heralds and prescience possibly perfect timing and Plus one strength Lotus

 Danny Internets wrote:
Thread summary:

OP: I keep getting trounced by a local Daemon player. What can I do?

Everyone: Take any number of appropriate units and use them in ways that allow you to deal with Daemons.

OP: No!

Then by all means, leave my damn thread. I apologized already for having some level of anger with the codex matchup, but I have tried to take some level of knowledge from what is being said. However, some of the posts are basically saying "Throw away what you have, buy this this and this, and have an unflavorful list." Which I do not want to do, I want to field stuff that is fun to play, not just blow $400 on adding more models that are all the same.

For example, my two hammerheads are railguns, to be the best-est tau ever I should cannibalize those and my 3 broadsides and just spam the ions and missiles. While I can note the effectiveness of those units I don't want to break my models for the sake of spamming all of the same stuff.

Now, if you don't want to add anything worth merit to my thread, then leave, others have attempted to contribute and I have had a back and forth trying to sift through the suggestions to find what I can use.

Summary:
-Consider getting and using an Ethereal, realistic and affordable.
-Consider better army placement/setup, realistically done
-Consider fortification options, might have to buy something but not terrible
-Consider speed bumps, if I refuse to use kroot then use an ally or have small sacrificial units
Use the riptide as a tar pit unit if need be
-Consider mecha tau options
-Try to squeeze in more pathfinders
-Piranhas / Tetras

So yeah, I've taken some of the comments to heart and I am trying to formulate something that I might be able to use.

The following does not help:
-"Insert 1 liner trolling the OP"
-"Adding nothing to the thread"
-"Don't field anything else, max out firewarriors! 6 full units!"
-"Don't use stealth suits, ever"
-"Go buy 2 more riptides, break your tanks and put on the new awesomesauce cannon, demolish your broadsides too."

I've posted and mentioned the models I do own, and I've been trying to take the suggestions that fit into the model inventory I have. For example, while 6 units of firewarriors may be useful, I only own 36 right now. For the time being that is what I have the ability to field until I have some income from my current commission. To help rectify this I have Space Marines as potential allies which will help me bring in some potential tie up/speed bump models as well as a few more scoring units.

Guess I have taken nothing from the thread though.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Yea I noticed too that jstncloud keeps asking for advice then argues with the players trying to help him. Let him continue losing until he learns how to listen.

In otherwords, let me find some cash to throw at my problem, spending more money on models will rectify the issue? As I stated above, I have taken some of what was said (the stuff I 'can' use) and have considered the comments. I've apologized for my anger that was showing through (it happens) but again, if you have nothing to contribute feel free to leave, at least others have attempted to add something to the discussion and sympathize with my frustration rather than just make stabs.

tgf wrote:
squads of 20 Pink horrors puts out a ton of shots when you add to level III heralds and prescience possibly perfect timing and Plus one strength Lotus

Essentially what I was saying. While I don't know the specifics of the Daemon codex I did note the prescience power and the fact he was casting the power twice (one for the unit and once for the dude with them). For the points spent on them they were dishing out loads of shots. In addition to that they make good use of positioning since the whole unit does not have to see the target for the power to be cast. The guy I was playing against only had minimal models in LoS as to protect the majority of that psychic blasting unit.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

Definitely considering getting an ethereal (gonna be a proxy until I can get one ordered) however I've refrained from getting 3 riptides (own one) simply to keep my list using different units and being enjoyable to play as well as enjoyable to play against. Currently have 6 stealth suits, 3 crisis suits, and a riptide for my elite options. I have 16-ish pathfinders and some Hazard Suits for fast attack (though in 6th ed the Hazards are more for 'fun'). For heavies I have 1 3-man unit of broadsides and 2 hammerheads. Considering getting one of the tau flyers (the one with the ion weapon) simply because it'd be a nice str 8 template to toss around and with the defenses that accompany a flyer.

Well, you will need at least 2 Riptides. Don't even bother to bring less. 2 or 0, that's the Tau way (with a few exceptions, but the Riptide is not amongst them). Also, you have way too few Pathfinders. Get at least 10 more. 16 is very sub-optimal. And yes, it means that you will probably fill up the FA with Pathfinders, so forget the flyer (it is pretty crappy anyways). I guess you have Ionheads and Missilesides, those things can stay. Otherwise, if you have Railheads and Railsides, then change them ASAP.

Unfortunately I am trying to not spam multiple of the same model, I do recognize that redundancies are helpful, I just don't have the cash for another riptide atm and I have 3 elite options. Your opinion on the flyer was mine as well, I was just looking for another way to get a str 8 blast onto the table without ripping apart my existing models and without sidelining models I have. Fast attack is where I have the most flexibility at the moment so that is why I had considered the flyer. Point noted though and if the flyer had been a good option it would have been some time before I got one anyways, same problem with that as is with the riptide (cash).

 Jstncloud wrote:

However, some of the posts are basically saying "Throw away what you have, buy this this and this, and have an unflavorful list." Which I do not want to do, I want to field stuff that is fun to play, not just blow $400 on adding more models that are all the same.

In otherwords, let me find some cash to throw at my problem, spending more money on models will rectify the issue?

Welcome in Warhammer 40k 6th Edition!

On a different note, if you don't want to spam Riptides, Ionheads and Missilesides, and you want to win against Daemons, then maybe... uhhhh... I dunno... Are you really that fixed on the Railheads? Like, swapping them to Ion Cannons is easy, I promise! But really, you have to have at least one of the above units or you will lose against Daemons (an against others too). Period. It is like a scientific fact.

Also, you can always proxy/scratchbuild a Riptide.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

However, some of the posts are basically saying "Throw away what you have, buy this this and this, and have an unflavorful list." Which I do not want to do, I want to field stuff that is fun to play, not just blow $400 on adding more models that are all the same.

In otherwords, let me find some cash to throw at my problem, spending more money on models will rectify the issue?

Welcome in Warhammer 40k 6th Edition!

On a different note, if you don't want to spam Riptides, Ionheads and Missilesides, and you want to win against Daemons, then maybe... uhhhh... I dunno... Are you really that fixed on the Railheads? Like, swapping them to Ion Cannons is easy, I promise! But really, you have to have at least one of the above units or you will lose against Daemons (an against others too). Period. It is like a scientific fact.

Also, you can always proxy/scratchbuild a Riptide.

My group is pretty laid back on proxies, if need be I could proxy the hammerheads as ions rather than railguns. I don't really have anything to proxy as a riptide unfortunately. Despite my group being cool with proxies I generally try to minimize doing that because I feel dirty doing it, hence why I try to field wysiwyg before I proxy, but if using purely what I have built makes it nearly impossible to be at all competitive I suppose I'll have to deal with proxies for awhile.

Edit:

Here is an army list I put together, if anyone wants to check it out and let me know what they think/offer suggestions:

HQ:
Crisis Suit Commander
2+/4+/FNP Airburst/Cyclic (ranges stink but that is how he is modeled and with his mobility and the str of the guns he is a pretty good catch all).

Body Guard:
2x Crisis Suits
2x Plasma Rifles each
FNP

HQ:
Ethereal

Troop:
Fire Warriors x12

Troop:
Fire Warriors x12

Troop:
Fire Warriors x12

Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line

Elite:
Riptide
Ion
Smart Missile System
FNP

Elite:
Stealth Suits x6
4x Burst Cannons 2x Fusions (in here for the str 8/melta in case I see any armor in a match)
4x Advance Targeting Systems (with so many burst cannon shots there is a good chance of getting pesky sergeants and so forth)

Fast Attack:
Pathfinders x7
2x Ion Rifles (I like these due to the high str and the blast template option, trades off 2 of the marker lights however)

Fast Attack:
Pathfinders x6
1x Ion Rifle (I like these due to the high str and the blast template option, trades off 1 of the marker lights however)

Tau models I have that are not in the list:
2x Devilfish with smart missile systems
2x Hammerheads with smart missile systems and railgun
3x Broadsides with Rail and missile pods
1x Fireblade
1x Darkstrider
4x Hazard Suits
1x Commander R'alai
1x Shadowsun
3x Pathfinders with Rail Rifles

FYI

P98.

Beasts can get on the second floor

Masterofmelee wrote:
FYI

P98.

Beasts can get on the second floor

Is it just walkers and Monstrous Creatures that cannot get on the second floor now?

A very good ally would be Eldar, not a whole lot, just enough for a Farseer with runes to screw with his shooting. Wraithguard with fortune are also surprisingly good tarpits if you want a small unit, and if the horrors shoot them, you get stackable FNP because you are definitely passing that toughness test.

Sadly most choppy daemons can negate one of the factors that make wraithguards tough, plaguebearers with poison, daemonettes with rending, and bloodletters with power . However if they get ignored, D cannons can nuke his multiwound models off the board in a hurry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jstncloud wrote:

Masterofmelee wrote:
FYI

P98.

Beasts can get on the second floor

Is it just walkers and Monstrous Creatures that cannot get on the second floor now?

And cavalry, so you''re safe from any model that is clearly riding on something.

 Jstncloud wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Those Horrors with all those shots:

Dude averages in the teens with his 4d6 roll and then has prescience up, so he hits with way more than 7 on average (from what I've dealt with at least). And the dude with the unit casts it as well, so two casts a turn, loads of shots.

Out of curiosity, how does he get Prescience on that Herald while still keeping the Tzeentch witchfire thing? Most other psykers have to use either their Codex powers or the rulebook powers, no mixing and matching.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Jstncloud wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Those Horrors with all those shots:

Dude averages in the teens with his 4d6 roll and then has prescience up, so he hits with way more than 7 on average (from what I've dealt with at least). And the dude with the unit casts it as well, so two casts a turn, loads of shots.

Out of curiosity, how does he get Prescience on that Herald while still keeping the Tzeentch witchfire thing? Most other psykers have to use either their Codex powers or the rulebook powers, no mixing and matching.

PG 38 "A herald of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines" Which is essentially 2 rolls for Forewarning (with one becoming prescience) and just taking Flickering Fire (the Change Primaris). This usually also nets you at least one Perfect Timing (ignores cover). Which is why a shooty Demon build is so good (barring Runes of Warding). It comes with ignores cover, and lets you build a 2++ Lord of Change or Demon Prince at the same time.

This is what you need to do. Aegis line at the front of your army. 20 man kroot squad behind that strung out end to end with a few models hanging back. Then get a 3 man crisis squad with triple flamers on each suit. Whenever he charges the kroot your entire army can overwatch, including 9d3 flamer hits from wall of death. The flamers don't have to be in range of the charging unit they only have to be within 6 inches of the kroot getting charged to overwatch. You can use 3 flamers on overwatch because you are not making a shooting attack. Watch his seekers melt when they charge you. For extra cheese ally in vulkan who affects all flamers in your entire army, not just the space marine ones.

anonymou5 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
Out of curiosity, how does he get Prescience on that Herald while still keeping the Tzeentch witchfire thing? Most other psykers have to use either their Codex powers or the rulebook powers, no mixing and matching.

PG 38 "A herald of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination and Change disciplines"

Well, that's all good then. And disgustingly powerful when the Herald sits in a huge mob of horrors. On the other hand, being unable to fire overwatch does make up for it somewhat.

Thunderwolf39 wrote:
This is what you need to do. Aegis line at the front of your army. 20 man kroot squad behind that strung out end to end with a few models hanging back. Then get a 3 man crisis squad with triple flamers on each suit. Whenever he charges the kroot your entire army can overwatch, including 9d3 flamer hits from wall of death. The flamers don't have to be in range of the charging unit they only have to be within 6 inches of the kroot getting charged to overwatch. You can use 3 flamers on overwatch because you are not making a shooting attack. Watch his seekers melt when they charge you. For extra cheese ally in vulkan who affects all flamers in your entire army, not just the space marine ones.

Just as a side note the flamers also need Line of Sight to the charging unit to use wall of death, in addition to being within 6" of the kroot.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Thunderwolf39 wrote:
This is what you need to do. Aegis line at the front of your army. 20 man kroot squad behind that strung out end to end with a few models hanging back. Then get a 3 man crisis squad with triple flamers on each suit. Whenever he charges the kroot your entire army can overwatch, including 9d3 flamer hits from wall of death. The flamers don't have to be in range of the charging unit they only have to be within 6 inches of the kroot getting charged to overwatch. You can use 3 flamers on overwatch because you are not making a shooting attack. Watch his seekers melt when they charge you. For extra cheese ally in vulkan who affects all flamers in your entire army, not just the space marine ones.

Just as a side note the flamers also need Line of Sight to the charging unit to use wall of death, in addition to being within 6" of the kroot.

And the fact that the suits can only fire '2' weapons not '3' each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
A very good ally would be Eldar, not a whole lot, just enough for a Farseer with runes to screw with his shooting. Wraithguard with fortune are also surprisingly good tarpits if you want a small unit, and if the horrors shoot them, you get stackable FNP because you are definitely passing that toughness test.

Sadly most choppy daemons can negate one of the factors that make wraithguards tough, plaguebearers with poison, daemonettes with rending, and bloodletters with power . However if they get ignored, D cannons can nuke his multiwound models off the board in a hurry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jstncloud wrote:

Masterofmelee wrote:
FYI

P98.

Beasts can get on the second floor

Is it just walkers and Monstrous Creatures that cannot get on the second floor now?

And cavalry, so you''re safe from any model that is clearly riding on something.

I was trying to prevent myself from having to purchase models for another army :-/ but if I cannot find a reasonable solution for my marines as allies I might have to save some money for eldar models (unfortunately).

Thanks for the clarification on the cavalry/monstrous creatures bit.

Any allies that you take will just reduce the number of guns that you have to kill daemons, quite literally Tau have the most anti-assault firepower of any army in the game right now.
What you need to do is take the right units, have them support each other and lay down focused firepower to remove the highest threat units. You might still lose but Tau absolutely have the tools (discussed in great length in this thread already) to shred even a fast demon assault army in 2 turns of heavy fire.

azala wrote:
Any allies that you take will just reduce the number of guns that you have to kill daemons, quite literally Tau have the most anti-assault firepower of any army in the game right now.
What you need to do is take the right units, have them support each other and lay down focused firepower to remove the highest threat units. You might still lose but Tau absolutely have the tools (discussed in great length in this thread already) to shred even a fast demon assault army in 2 turns of heavy fire.

In the army I ran and with deployment if I had been able to rapid fire everything into 'one' of his beasts units I would have taken them out, however, the other 'three' would have made it to my lines which was more than enough to ruin most of my army. I don't doubt Tau have options, what I doubt is the over confidence in taking out 'everything' before it gets to me. I have 3 squads of fire warriors, it would have taken two turns of firing 'everyone' of them at the hounds just to take that 'one' unit out. The dude had 'four' beast type units that were moving up extremely fast. I was literally assaulted by 4 units (3 beasts) and one none beasts (some unit that comes out of a gate?) on turn 2. 20 Blood letters also deep struck in on turn 2. Turn 3 the screamers (blue flying things?) were behind my lines, after having turbo boosted over units the previous two turns, and then they assaulted me and the 20 Blood letters did as well. When I said I was outnumbered at least 3-1 I wasn't kidding, and there just wasn't enough firepower on my end to take out enough models to prevent him from assaulting me.

As a Chaos and Tau player;
It is my strong recommendation that you change your Hammerhead gunships to have Ion weapons.

Your Chaos foe is using some hektic stuff!

If you are to defeat him you must be as a reed gracefully bending in the wind, not a rock to be stepped upon.

 ZombieEater wrote:
As a Chaos and Tau player;
It is my strong recommendation that you change your Hammerhead gunships to have Ion weapons.

Your Chaos foe is using some hektic stuff!

If you are to defeat him you must be as a reed gracefully bending in the wind, not a rock to be stepped upon.

That's some deep stuff. I like.

If you want marine allies, a librarian with a hood can force a foe to roll his tests on a 3d6 for a good radius, if you can get him close (I don't have the book with me but the hood has pretty good coverage) then psyker units will start perilsing themselves to death. You should also probably roll for rulebook powers, there's some treasure there.

Terminators also stone wall a lot of daemon units due to the nerfs to power weapons which make most khornate models ineffective against them. While hammernators are nice counter assault units, regular termies add to your gun line, so your call.

Also for your tau, use burst cannons, ion weapons, missiles, and flamers, leave plasmas, and fusion cannons at home. You want maximum volume of firepower, make them roll lot of dice, armor saves are rare in the army as are vehicles.

Daemons do not handle large volumes of good strength shots well, nor do they like instant death as their primary protection is number of wounds and toughness or speed. Their invulnerable save is effectively a flak vest that can guard against more weapons. Heck the army as a whole has poor saves.

Getting good cover is a daemon's friend, doubly so for nurgle and his usage of shrouding, thus ways to ignore cover will be your friend. Markerlights and flamers are worth their weight in gold.

Your main use for very high strength weapons should be to instagib multiwound models and pop engines and chariots. Due to your high strength guns, princes and GDs are considerably more vulnerable to basic weapon shooting than they are to other armies, and if he wants the saves to mitigate that he''ll be paying for it. Ion weapons are excellent here, as they punch through a thruster's save, have enough strength to reliably wound GUO's, and if your foe is lax in spacing (as many horde, and especially choppy horde players are) you can gib units next to it with some luck.

 Kain wrote:
If you want marine allies, a librarian with a hood can force a foe to roll his tests on a 3d6 for a good radius, if you can get him close (I don't have the book with me but the hood has pretty good coverage) then psyker units will start perilsing themselves to death. You should also probably roll for rulebook powers, there's some treasure there.

Terminators also stone wall a lot of daemon units due to the nerfs to power weapons which make most khornate models ineffective against them. While hammernators are nice counter assault units, regular termies add to your gun line, so your call.

Also for your tau, use burst cannons, ion weapons, missiles, and flamers, leave plasmas, and fusion cannons at home. You want maximum volume of firepower, make them roll lot of dice, armor saves are rare in the army as are vehicles.

Daemons do not handle large volumes of good strength shots well, nor do they like instant death as their primary protection is number of wounds and toughness or speed. Their invulnerable save is effectively a flak vest that can guard against more weapons. Heck the army as a whole has poor saves.

Getting good cover is a daemon's friend, doubly so for nurgle and his usage of shrouding, thus ways to ignore cover will be your friend. Markerlights and flamers are worth their weight in gold.

Your main use for very high strength weapons should be to instagib multiwound models and pop engines and chariots. Due to your high strength guns, princes and GDs are considerably more vulnerable to basic weapon shooting than they are to other armies, and if he wants the saves to mitigate that he''ll be paying for it. Ion weapons are excellent here, as they punch through a thruster's save, have enough strength to reliably wound GUO's, and if your foe is lax in spacing (as many horde, and especially choppy horde players are) you can gib units next to it with some luck.

Unless the hood changed it essentially lets you make the deny the witch roll with the librarian, rather than the unit, if he is within 12 inches. From what I recall only Eldar and Tyranids can force 3d6 on powers.

Honestly, we would have to know exactly what went down. If he sped his pups along the full 12" after putting them at the edge of his deployment, that puts them right in the middle of the board, which is within 15" if you measure and place your models correctly.

If the Riptide had the Ion accelerator, use the blast. Not the Nova-charge, the normal S8 blast.

Also, a unit of Broadsides with High yield MPs, the SMS, and 6 missile drones is 48 missiles. per turn. and most are twin-linked. I would invest in this.

A sniper drone team lays down 3 BS5 markerlights a turn, and since their sniper rifles are 48", you can rapid fire at 24" meaning that with 9 sniper drones and the Ethereal, you can have 27 sniper shots hitting at BS5.

 Jstncloud wrote:


So basically, what you are saying, just field nothing but fire warriors? My list had plenty of shooty elements (36 fire warriors, 10 pathfinders, crisis suit commander, 2 body guards, 8 stealth suits, riptide, aegis with quad, and a fireblade) but nothing that could lay down what that unit was laying down and unfortunately unless one gets precision shots (or the warlord trait) simply 'taking out awesome-character-whoever' is easier said than done when he is in the middle of the unit. I could drop the fireblade and that frees up 60 points, but I still don't think that would bring enough 'fat' trimming to field more pew-pew, not to mention he was giving me double shots at range 30 anyways.

That is why like the Etheral more. Fireblade gives on unit that stands still and extra shot at 30". The ethereal gives every pulse unit with in 12" an extra shoot at 9", 15" or 24", depending on the weapon, even if they move.