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I don't understand the zombie options.

 Tangent wrote:
I don't understand the zombie options.

Basically I have 2 zombie units, one where i bunker my necros, and one where i dont.
Would it be better to have no standard/musician on the bunker (which shouldnt be seeing combat) or the tarpit? The standard might help in combat (or be a VP liability if its wiped out), the musician helps with a reform (but only if it has a character in it?)




All this has me re-evaluating the list again...several things that bother me.

1. The Lord's setup...I see alot of people runnig ogreblade+tots. Is anti-heroes/dragonhelm/tots better?

2. Running the lord in the Blood Knights - I think this just makes it the target of all missile fire in an enemy army. As lovely as ethereal movement is, I would rather keep the lord in the Black Knights for safe keeping.

3. The Crypt Horrors...is 6 really enough? Or do I need 9 to really make a difference?

4. The Vargiests...are they really worth it? Some people argue I should take Fel Bats or Hex Wraiths to deal with war machines and the like.


With the extra points from the dropped 10th Black Knight, plus dropping the vargiests, I believe I have exactly enough points for a 5 man hex wraith unit + champion. Is this a better alternative to the Vargiests?

I could run the blood knights by themselves (the vampiric attribute + gleaming pennant should keep them out of strife until combat)... or replace them entirely with something else, like a vargulf...more questions than answers it seems

1) tots? Ogre Blade vs Anti-heroes really depends on what the rank and file is packing. If you have enough hitting power in the army where 1+/2+ armor isn't a problem then go anti-heroes.
2) Yeah, a big enough unit of blood knights is a really big target.
I've been running only 4 blood knights, 10 black knights and a vampire lord on hellsteed. Where cannons are an issue, I join black knights. When they aren't an issue, I'll join blood knights, or just go solo. Taking look out sir rolls and passing crossbow hits on to ethereals really messes with opponents plans.
That being said, I wish I had 5 more black knights, just to have the rank bonus and break stead fast a little sooner.
3) 8 is better. I run 10, and have threatened to run 18. I'd seen 2 units of 8 do very well.
4) Hex wraiths work best with a fast moving vampire. Dire wolves and fellbats will kill warmachines quick enough, I have less luck with vargiests due to them failing frenzy and hitting something I don't want them to fight.

From my games, the rares that seem to work:
Double Mortis engine in an infantry list.
Mortis engine + 2x8 crypt horrors
Double Terrorgheists in a scream list
Vargulf, Black Knights and Coach in fun lists.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
1) tots? Ogre Blade vs Anti-heroes really depends on what the rank and file is packing. If you have enough hitting power in the army where 1+/2+ armor isn't a problem then go anti-heroes.
2) Yeah, a big enough unit of blood knights is a really big target.
I've been running only 4 blood knights, 10 black knights and a vampire lord on hellsteed. Where cannons are an issue, I join black knights. When they aren't an issue, I'll join blood knights, or just go solo. Taking look out sir rolls and passing crossbow hits on to ethereals really messes with opponents plans.
That being said, I wish I had 5 more black knights, just to have the rank bonus and break stead fast a little sooner.
3) 8 is better. I run 10, and have threatened to run 18. I'd seen 2 units of 8 do very well.
4) Hex wraiths work best with a fast moving vampire. Dire wolves and fellbats will kill warmachines quick enough, I have less luck with vargiests due to them failing frenzy and hitting something I don't want them to fight.

From my games, the rares that seem to work:
Double Mortis engine in an infantry list.
Mortis engine + 2x8 crypt horrors
Double Terrorgheists in a scream list
Vargulf, Black Knights and Coach in fun lists.

-Matt

1. tots = ots (the Other Trickster's Shard) sorry i didnt realise convention until now
2. What is the optimal number of black knights to run with if I was to place my lord with them? 9 is too little? (5x2)?
3. Crypt horrors seems godly, but are they worth it without a mortis engine?
I had gone with knights because I felt VC would be shot to pieces if i went down the GG/CH/ME path.
4. If i keep my BK bus, hex wraiths might be a better addition than vargiests as a flanking support with the general. I could keep them behind the black knights and ride through them *and* the enemy for their drive-by attacks. An alternative I'm thinking of is to run twin vargulfs on an opposite flank to charge enemy war machines...thoughts?

Yeah, the Other Trickster's Shard is usually abbreviated OTS.

Regarding the zombie units... you probably want standards in both, if for no other reason than the Blood and Glory scenario. As for musicians, you might as well - you won't always need them, but if you DO need them and don't have them, you'll wish you had taken them instead of 2 more zombies.

The unit bunkering the necromancer can see combat too, if you want, usually late-game. The necromancer leaves when it's safe enough, and you can throw that unit right into combat, then.

I used to run a full 10 Black Knights with my lord, then I dropped to 9 to make points for other stuff, and then I dropped to 8 when I started running an additional hero vampire in that unit. Don't have enough games with them yet to tell if 8 is too low.

Crypt Horrors are definitely worth it without a Mortis Engine. 6 is fine, though some people recommend 8. Why 8 and not 9? I'm not sure - probably because you can make the unit 4-wide and have 2 full ranks, then. If you do that, the 9th model is kind-of a waste.

You'll be shot to pieces with GG/CH/ME, but don't doubt the power of Invocation of Nehek! You'll come back fast. Your opponents will get discouraged about their shooting phases.

I think Hexwraiths are better than Vargheists. As for twin Varghulfs, I don't really recommend it. Might be fun, though. Anyway, I use one, and it's kinda strong but you have to be really selective with what you put it in combat with, and if you only use it to hunt war machines then it's too expensive at 175 points, in my opinion.

I would really recomend a talisman of preservation on your lord or even the nightshroud, in most games i play, the enemy player usually considers my general to be a big target. (since it makes us crumble)

Tangent wrote:Yeah, the Other Trickster's Shard is usually abbreviated OTS.

Regarding the zombie units... you probably want standards in both, if for no other reason than the Blood and Glory scenario. As for musicians, you might as well - you won't always need them, but if you DO need them and don't have them, you'll wish you had taken them instead of 2 more zombies.

The unit bunkering the necromancer can see combat too, if you want, usually late-game. The necromancer leaves when it's safe enough, and you can throw that unit right into combat, then.

I used to run a full 10 Black Knights with my lord, then I dropped to 9 to make points for other stuff, and then I dropped to 8 when I started running an additional hero vampire in that unit. Don't have enough games with them yet to tell if 8 is too low.

Crypt Horrors are definitely worth it without a Mortis Engine. 6 is fine, though some people recommend 8. Why 8 and not 9? I'm not sure - probably because you can make the unit 4-wide and have 2 full ranks, then. If you do that, the 9th model is kind-of a waste.

You'll be shot to pieces with GG/CH/ME, but don't doubt the power of Invocation of Nehek! You'll come back fast. Your opponents will get discouraged about their shooting phases.

I think Hexwraiths are better than Vargheists. As for twin Varghulfs, I don't really recommend it. Might be fun, though. Anyway, I use one, and it's kinda strong but you have to be really selective with what you put it in combat with, and if you only use it to hunt war machines then it's too expensive at 175 points, in my opinion.

You sir are a champion for having persevered with me this far...I salute you!

Now...

I suppose this is a good time to outline some of my motives.
a.) I don't want to run terrorgiests for some reason
b.) Generally speaking, I need to be 'cost effective' with my army lists (for instance, if its a decision between running 3 or 4 vargiests, I won't buy 2 packs, just to assemble 4 and waste the other 2). Idon't mean to be tight, but I simply cant justify doing that.
c.) I'm not going to be going into the *insanely hardcore comp scene*. Sure, I'd like it to be competitive, but not min/maxed to the nth degree.

With all that being said, I'm thinking I should rewrite my list for clarity. I will post below.

bRianStorm wrote:I would really recomend a talisman of preservation on your lord or even the nightshroud, in most games i play, the enemy player usually considers my general to be a big target. (since it makes us crumble)

Hey bRianStorm,

I know this post has gone on for abit, but if you check the first page, you'll see that I have indeed equipped the lord with a talisman of preservation, as you have suggested

One thing that I really, really love about Vampire Counts that, from what I've seen, DOES seem to be unique to the army, is that literally everything in the book is good but not overpowered (with the exception of total scream lists). You can make some really strong lists, but it's probably fairly difficult to make a list that's total crap unless you close your eyes and throw darts at the book.

That being said, your list really, actually, doesn't require ANYTHING at all to meet your requirements outlined above.

The only thing it needs in order to be better is table time. You need to play it. I went through a lot of theorycrafting and list building for my army before I played a game, and now I've played a lot of games and my list is quite different from it's original theorycrafted incarnation. It's been fine tuned. And I've done that without having purchased even a single additional model.

Basically, little things like whether or not you need 6 or 9 Crypt Horrors are very difficult for us to answer, but those questions are SUPER easy in the face of table time. Once your army has been on the table for a handful of games, you'll start to get a feel for just how many Crypt Horrors you think would be optimal. A lot of it has to do with your regular opponents, which is something we can't predict.

This definitely isn't meant to be a "shut up and play" kind-of post, but the things I've mentioned in this post of mine are things that are really easy to miss and/or forget in the face of list building. To answer your 3 points more directly:

1) That's cool - I don't run Terrorgheists, either. You can make a strong list without them.

2) You can buy single models from bitz sellers on eBay. That way you don't pay the price of 6 and only use 4. You just pay the price of 4!

3) Your list is fine in this regard.

As promised, here's my latest update.

2500 Vampire Counts


LORDS
---------------------------------------

Master Vampire - Mathias Cronqvist (Lore of Vampires)
heavy armour, shield, Barded Nightmare, lvl 4, red fury, quickblood, Beguile, Talisman of Preservation, Sword of the Anti-Hero, Dragonhelm, Other Trickster's Shard


HEROES
---------------------------------------

Necromancer - Agahnim (Lore of Vampires)
Book of Arkhan/Ruby Ring of Ruin

Necromancer - Azariah (Lore of Vampires)
Dispel scroll

Cairn Wraith


CORE
---------------------------------------

Skeleton Warriors x 69 (Wraith)
FC, Banner of the Eternal Flame

Zombies x 20 (Necro bunker)
Musician, Standard

Zombies x 20
Musician, Standard

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion

Dire Wolves x 5
Champion


SPECIAL
--------------------------------------

Spirit Host

Spirit Host

Crypt Horrors x 6

Black Knights x 09
barding, lances, FC, Standard of Swiftness

Vargiests x 3


RARE
---------------------------------------

Blood Knights x 5
Standard, Gleaming Pendant


TOTAL
---------------------------------------
2444 (56 spare)

OPTION 1
Drop vargiests, take 5 hex wraiths with 44 points spare.

OPTION 2
Upgrade the Wraith to a Banshee with 21 points spare.

OPTION 3
Drop vargiests, take a vargulf with 19 points spare.


Thoughts:
- Fel bats?
- Replace the blood knights? (possibly with a vargulf?)
- Anything else?

I have responses to your thoughts, but really you should just play it. As for the options, I would go with either option 1 or 3 - both are viable and it depends on your playstyle.