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 DeffDred wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Xenology has a lot of problems in it that makes it suspect to use as a basis of comparison to anything else in-universe, and serves really only as an example of how Imperial research is done.

That's the case with all BL material.

Based on Xenology, we're lead to believe that Tau actually have toes

Not "lead", flat out shown. There are several threads where I explain that those "toes" could also be concidered hooves or claws.

Eldar males have no genitalia and the females no breasts (despite text descriptions of the same) and they poop rocks.

Wrong. Eldar have a human analog genitalia. They just have sex multipule times to form an embryo. You're confusing the Tau breasts for Eldar. It's just a pic. Not all women are DD. The Eldar poop crystaline spoor.

I wouldn't take the information presented in it as gospel... or even vaguely accurate.

I certainly hope not, you didn't seem to read it in the first place and are just going by what you've (inaccuratly) heard.

Go look at the pictures in Xenology, and tell me where the Eldar's naughty bits are, ok? That's what I'm talking about. Did you miss the part where I said "despite text descriptions of the same"? I understand how Eldar function. What we're presented with in Xenology is some AdMech guessing at how things work because he can't figure it out.

And toes are not hooves, there's no "considering" toes as hooves or hooves as toes.

 Psienesis wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Xenology has a lot of problems in it that makes it suspect to use as a basis of comparison to anything else in-universe, and serves really only as an example of how Imperial research is done.

That's the case with all BL material.

Based on Xenology, we're lead to believe that Tau actually have toes

Not "lead", flat out shown. There are several threads where I explain that those "toes" could also be concidered hooves or claws.

Eldar males have no genitalia and the females no breasts (despite text descriptions of the same) and they poop rocks.

Wrong. Eldar have a human analog genitalia. They just have sex multipule times to form an embryo. You're confusing the Tau breasts for Eldar. It's just a pic. Not all women are DD. The Eldar poop crystaline spoor.

I wouldn't take the information presented in it as gospel... or even vaguely accurate.

I certainly hope not, you didn't seem to read it in the first place and are just going by what you've (inaccuratly) heard.

Go look at the pictures in Xenology, and tell me where the Eldar's naughty bits are, ok? That's what I'm talking about. Did you miss the part where I said "despite text descriptions of the same"? I understand how Eldar function. What we're presented with in Xenology is some AdMech guessing at how things work because he can't figure it out.

And toes are not hooves, there's no "considering" toes as hooves or hooves as toes.

For the 100th fething time. LOOK AT THE FOOT OF A RHINO!!!!!!!!!!!!! THAT IS A HOOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And they removed the genitals from the artwork so that it could be sold to children. GW tends not to include NC-17 material.

So to answer your question... they've been removed and are in the bio-waste container with the used needles.

Oh and just to blow your mind...



Notice how toes are part of a hoof! Amazing!

 Troike wrote:
Don't know if it's still valid since the release of the new Tau codex, but wasn't there some fluff hinting that Farsight might have been influenced by a daemon-possessed sword? If true, it would demonstrate that it's not entirely impossible for Chaos the affect Tau.

There is loose allegation about the sword, but nothing that really implies it was demonic. Farsight is not anti Tau, far from it really. He's actively come to the defense of the Tau Empire on several occasions. It can be said he's 'anti-ethereal', as they basically tried to do him in.\\He's setup as the classic cliche of the hero who is reviled by there very folks he works to save.

No Chaos at all

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Don't know if it's still valid since the release of the new Tau codex, but wasn't there some fluff hinting that Farsight might have been influenced by a daemon-possessed sword? If true, it would demonstrate that it's not entirely impossible for Chaos the affect Tau.

There is loose allegation about the sword, but nothing that really implies it was demonic. Farsight is not anti Tau, far from it really. He's actively come to the defense of the Tau Empire on several occasions. It can be said he's 'anti-ethereal', as they basically tried to do him in.\\He's setup as the classic cliche of the hero who is reviled by there very folks he works to save.

No Chaos at all

I agree. IMO, the Dawn Blade is Anaris, the last blade of Vaul.

Again, we can argue about whether Tau have psychic abilities or not, but in the end it's the same as arguing whether unicorns crap rainbows that include colors that are beyond human register because it isn't REAL. Hell, let's just write our own fluff until GW proves us wrong. Can't hurt.

Chaos corrupts from within. If you have no real desires, ambitions or corrupt ideas then you are safe. This goes for every single race in 40k. Even humans are immune to the influence of chaos if they steel themselves and do not doubt in their place in the universe. I would think this is the reason tau are so far removed from the other races psykically. They show little if any emotion, they are unified to a degree unseen in any other race and they have no real fears when it comes to the unknown.

People who have a poor grasp of what chaos is have stated before that nurgle would be able to infect them quite easily, as disease is a biological thing, not spiritual.
However, Nurgle derives his power from the fear of death and corruption NOT from disease. The Plagues he spreads take root in the fearfull and the weak willed aswell as the ones who embrace his touch willingly.

The new book "Fire Caste" does a lot of hinting of Chaos Tau actually.

Its all very subtle stuff though.

The big thing in the book is that the Tau dont have any Etherials guiding them and they are fighting the Imperials on a world where it is hinted to be corrupted.

This books includes Kroot who butcher Tau warriors, Tau Warriors who chop up humans, a human who is the size of a room because of disease, a group of Religious Humans who take pleasure in pain



Also the Tau in that one Ultramarine books has a book who looses control of his (her? I dont remember) that losses control of its emotions and goes bloodthirsty.

As long as the Etherial are guiding the Tau the Tau will remain true to the Greater Good but once the Etherials are gone the chances increase greatly from not a chance in hell to just highly unlikely.

This is not the whole truth, as there are other stong influences at work on the planet with similar effects.
This is revealed in the ebook "A Sanctuary of Wyrms" written by the same author, taking place a bit earlier on that planet.
Warning: This is a huge spoiler. Better read the (fantastic) short story and novel yourself:

That said, the new Codex allows for more individual behavior, and the Water Caste boss is not following standard procedures, sanctioned by any ethereal.

I havnt read/heard that ebook. Thanks for the heads up

 tarnish wrote:
Chaos corrupts from within. If you have no real desires, ambitions or corrupt ideas then you are safe. This goes for every single race in 40k. Even humans are immune to the influence of chaos if they steel themselves and do not doubt in their place in the universe. I would think this is the reason tau are so far removed from the other races psykically. They show little if any emotion, they are unified to a degree unseen in any other race and they have no real fears when it comes to the unknown.

People who have a poor grasp of what chaos is have stated before that nurgle would be able to infect them quite easily, as disease is a biological thing, not spiritual.
However, Nurgle derives his power from the fear of death and corruption NOT from disease. The Plagues he spreads take root in the fearfull and the weak willed aswell as the ones who embrace his touch willingly.

I always thought humans only resisted chaos by covering themselves with the blood of Sororitas, isnt that what we keep them around for?

But is Tau's ''For the Greater good" are any better than Imperium's ''For the Emperor"? Those two phrases serve same purpose and their followers use it in same fanatical way. In the end, I see little actual distinction between these two. Those phrases are both followed with religious zeal and fanaticism on large and they both serve to benefit their own species. Yet, one sad hypocracy exists. It's fine to indoctrinate, brainwash and to destroy individual for Tau's cause, but then Imperium are doing very same thing via Ecclesiarchy and fanaticism it's suddenly barbaric and regressive.
In my eyes, Tau here are just greater victims of self-destruction than most human are due to that, they are far harder to corrupt.


For example: Imperium have a death cult serving as Imperial guard. They are called Death troops of Krieg. Due to theirs training which consists heavily of dehumanisation and abusion of human life they have unquestionable faith in the Emperor and are more heroic than almost all space marines are. It's human analogy of Grey knights training programs which both gives unbelievable advantages to a soldier at the cost of its identity and any comfort. Life of a soldier becomes a hapless servitude which is just barely better than to be lobotomised.

They are naturally almost pariah's, in other word's, they have a very small imprint on the warp by comparison to other races.

 Ernestas wrote:
But is Tau's ''For the Greater good" are any better than Imperium's ''For the Emperor"? Those two phrases serve same purpose and their followers use it in same fanatical way. In the end, I see little actual distinction between these two. Those phrases are both followed with religious zeal and fanaticism on large and they both serve to benefit their own species. Yet, one sad hypocracy exists. It's fine to indoctrinate, brainwash and to destroy individual for Tau's cause, but then Imperium are doing very same thing via Ecclesiarchy and fanaticism it's suddenly barbaric and regressive.
In my eyes, Tau here are just greater victims of self-destruction than most human are due to that, they are far harder to corrupt.

Simple really: Humans, like the other elder races, focus on the survival and the benefit of their species and their species alone. Tau don't; they're willing to give other species a chance, even if it means subjecting them to 19th Century-style Imperialism/cultural genocide. Which is arguably worse than the Imperium's iron-fisted xenophobia. The Imperium will just kill you; the Tau will strip away your free will and re-write your culture for their liking (in contrast, Imperial culture - while still uniformly Human - is actually quite diverse and varies greatly from world to world as opposed to the uniformity of the Tau Empire).

Ernestas wrote:But is Tau's ''For the Greater good" are any better than Imperium's ''For the Emperor"? Those two phrases serve same purpose and their followers use it in same fanatical way.

Tau under the rule of ethereals are not fanatics. See my sig for an explanation what "For the Greater Good" stands for.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Imperium will just kill you; the Tau will strip away your free will and re-write your culture for their liking

Ever heard of Kroot? Ever heard that Kroot lost their free will and culture, being one of the oldest allies of the Tau? See?

Are they honestly consider others ideas then? Their acceptance is only an illusion formed from them being too weak for all-out aggression versus everyone else, so they manipulate others to do their job. In the end, one is either subjugated to their cause and ultimately are treated as second-rate citizens or annihilated.

Imperium's dogma, while not utilitarianistic in nature, it still carries a lot of philosophical weight.It strives for values which in very same way enhances Imperium making it stronger by actually having religion than not.

 Ernestas wrote:
Are they honestly consider others ideas then? Their acceptance is only an illusion formed from them being too weak for all-out aggression versus everyone else, so they manipulate others to do their job. In the end, one is either subjugated to their cause and ultimately are treated as second-rate citizens or annihilated.

So in your opinion, democracy is only for weakling governments too weak to subjugate its people?
Ever considered the idea, that some people simply don't WANT to subjugate?
And tolerance doesn't mean, that you adopt all opinions, but that you accept others having other opinions.

In the end, Kroot don't care what Imperials think and live as a free people with their own culture within (and outside ) the Tau Empire, respected in their uniqueness by the Tau.

As with all things in 40k Tau are capable of being corrupted.

Earth Caste: Tzeentch (technology and advancement)

Water Caste: Slaanesh (distraction and infiltration)

Fire Caste: Khorne (War)

Air Caste: ...

Etherial Caste: Nurgle (corrupting and violating other civilizations)

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Are they honestly consider others ideas then? Their acceptance is only an illusion formed from them being too weak for all-out aggression versus everyone else, so they manipulate others to do their job. In the end, one is either subjugated to their cause and ultimately are treated as second-rate citizens or annihilated.

So in your opinion, democracy is only for weakling governments too weak to subjugate its people?
Ever considered the idea, that some people simply don't WANT to subjugate?
And tolerance doesn't mean, that you adopt all opinions, but that you accept others having other opinions.

In the end, Kroot don't care what Imperials think and live as a free people with their own culture within (and outside ) the Tau Empire, respected in their uniqueness by the Tau.

That is not wait he said.

Ernestas said that the Tau do not have the military might to simply conquer everyone they encounter so they rely on politics and manipulation to turn their enemy into their ally making their Empire stronger by having more manpower and ideas opposed to the Imperial idea of stronger through more resources. One COULD believe that it is because they have no desire to subjugate but judging from Tau fluff it is less that they dont want to subjugate as it is that they see it would benefit more in the short term to accept new people instead of conquering them.

The Tau arnt a Democracy, the allied forces are welcomed into their Empire like the Roman Empire allowed allied powers into their empire but those allies were ultimately second-rate citizens in the greater Empire. The Tau are Tolerant (like you said) because they accept other ideas but they accept them because they see the ideas and strong ideas.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Imperium will just kill you; the Tau will strip away your free will and re-write your culture for their liking

Ever heard of Kroot? Ever heard that Kroot lost their free will and culture, being one of the oldest allies of the Tau? See?

They're still under overall Ethereal control. And whatever native beliefs they once had has been replaced by the Greater Good. That is called imperialism.

You might say the Imperium does the same for Humanity; but at least the Imperium's leaders are all Human. No matter how cruel and despotic they may be, they are still of their own people.

And the Missionaries of the Imperial Cult don't overwrite native beliefs (unless they are touched by Chaotic/Xenos influence), instead they graft Imperial dogma onto it and let the situation adapt, resulting in the surprisingly varied and diverse nature of Imperial culture across the Human empire.

So the Tau have stopped the Kroot from following their native cultural practices such as Canibalism? I assume they also stopped them from doing mercenary work as well.

Jefffar wrote:
So the Tau have stopped the Kroot from following their native cultural practices such as Canibalism? I assume they also stopped them from doing mercenary work as well.

Perhaps not; but whatever native beliefs they once had are now dead and gone.

I read an article about the Tau, they say the Ethereals use something like chemical manipulation so that might also have an effect on them not being tainted by chaos.

Galdos wrote:One COULD believe that it is because they have no desire to subjugate but judging from Tau fluff it is less that they dont want to subjugate as it is that they see it would benefit more in the short term to accept new people instead of conquering them.

The idea that there are only two kinds of men:
1.) Those that want to subjugate and succeed.
2.) Those that want to subjugate and don't succeed.
is flawed. The current Tau codex is open for more individuality, but this is where Tau (and most Tau fans) started:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

So assuming, that Tau may not want to subjugate everyone is not unthinkable. And how Tau rule themselves is different on how the Empire is organized (Tau never try to implement a caste system on anyone for instance).

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
So the Tau have stopped the Kroot from following their native cultural practices such as Canibalism? I assume they also stopped them from doing mercenary work as well.

Perhaps not; but whatever native beliefs they once had are now dead and gone.

Kroot believe in their revered ancestor "Kroothawk" , Kroot currently believe in a low tech lifestyle (which Tau don't believe in). Other than that Kroot are one of the most pragmatic and unideological races in 40k, so your Imperial propaganda shows that you know almost nothing about Kroot culture. Sometimes the Imperial Primer is not enough for a discussion on Xeno races . That said, it is totally off-topic.

BTW, thanks Jefffar.

 Razak wrote:
I read an article about the Tau, they say the Ethereals use something like chemical manipulation so that might also have an effect on them not being tainted by chaos.

Poor victims. To be immune to chaos via chemical substances could easily mean that their personalities are destroyed completely.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Tau never try to implement a caste system on anyone for instance.

Or for that matter, allow anyone other than a Prophet, er Ethereal to get the final say. Imperialism, plain and simple.

 Ernestas wrote:

 Razak wrote:
I read an article about the Tau, they say the Ethereals use something like chemical manipulation so that might also have an effect on them not being tainted by chaos.

Poor victims. To be immune to chaos via chemical substances could easily mean that their personalities are destroyed completely.

Not really. More like having their sense of free will suppressed. After all, an Ethereal's word must be obeyed.

 Razak wrote:
I read an article about the Tau, they say the Ethereals use something like chemical manipulation so that might also have an effect on them not being tainted by chaos.

What article? Maybe you refer to the Imperial theory that ethereals use pheromones, which was next to debunked in the current Codex.

 Ernestas wrote:
Poor victims. To be immune to chaos via chemical substances could easily mean that their personalities are destroyed completely.

Buddha and Jesus are said to be immune to corruption. Would you call them poor victims with destroyed personalities as well?

 Kroothawk wrote:

Buddha and Jesus are said to be immune to corruption. Would you call them poor victims with destroyed personalities as well?

They are immune to corruption because of their own individual abilities

Galdos ir correct. It's that I meant exactly.

While Tau did started in that way, I believe that they have been repainted due to warhammer's fans demand. That bothers me most, is hypocrisy of Tau's fans. They look to their race through purple glasses while in same moment denounce Imperium. Imperium could far more easily be painted at far brighter colors than it's already have been done for a Tau. Sadly, Imperium is a beating sack for GW's almost ridiculous grim-darkness dogma while Tau pretty much gets a free ride in that aspect. Of course, if you exclude untold background of theirs.

The idea that there are only two kinds of men is flawed.

Men of course can have far more colors than those two, but entire race cannot. You either subjugate others or not. Tau are...well tell me this: if you a single and rich human world deep in Tau's space, could you say to them: "feth off. We want to live for ourselves"? At very best, you can receive from them is a one sided trade monopoly (if your riches comes from industry and natural resources) and it would still count as serving them. Why? Because you will aid them at your own cost and resources that they will gain from trade in their favor will outmatch short-term gain from planetary invasion of that planet.

Telling that Tau leave worlds alone if they wish to is like saying that Imperium consists of no planets besides solar system. Both can make you serve them without interfering directly (that is a main way of Imperium's ruling).

 Ernestas wrote:
That bothers me most, is hypocrisy of Tau's fans. They look to their race through purple glasses while in same moment denounce Imperium. Imperium could far more easily be painted at far brighter colors than it's already have been done for a Tau. Sadly, Imperium is a beating sack for GW's almost ridiculous grim-darkness dogma while Tau pretty much gets a free ride in that aspect. Of course, if you exclude untold background of theirs.

That's because the Imperium was never truly a 'good' faction, and no Imperial fan has ever or ever seen it as such. Everything the Imperium has ever done is done by necessity, even during more 'liberal' times of the Great Crusade.

I meant not morally good, but of power of their strength. I can accept that Imperium is technologically stagnant and corrupted, but it makes little to no sense to portray tech-priests so incompetent that they cannot to construct a good tank while their engineers are running around a battlefield, improvising with broken weaponary and equipment. Even more, lore itself (novels) now are against them. It have been shown few times that Mechanicus in fact are doing some actual research. That's more, technological degradation of Adeptus Mechanicus is one of a stupidest things imaginable. It's like trying to explain to your teacher: I had done my homeworks, but my computer forgoted that was inside my files.

I hate to see that every introduction to Imperium's wars is like that: massive damage to a planet, resistance at a breaking point, little to no hope and yet, despite all odds their triumph.


But more closer to my point is that Imperium have so much unimaginably powerful equipment and individuals which is never putted into action (except maybe, Inquisitors and Grey knights). Maybe I want for a change to see a planet virus bombed prior the Invasion? Where is primarus psykers of Imperial guard? I want reality to be twisted and shaped to Imperium's advantage. Where is Imperium's cloaked, planet exterminating ships? Then a last time orks Waaaagghhh was stopped by Imperium by deep striking Everson's or using Callidus assassins to take down a warboss? Then will we see it a scrap-code running rampant again? It could easily wipe Tau's civilization given a chance. How we managed to forget nova cannon? If mass-produced, tyranids threat would be reduced to dealable. As eldars have proven, you cannot out-tech and out-warp a simple bullet, so why it should be a same and with evolution? No one is safe from pure dose of unconditional destruction, even the most adaptable of forces.
How it's always Imperium who are being out-smarted and not their enemies, despite of a fact that all important humans live several hundreds of years?


Btw: did you known that Imperial guard can sometimes have an artillery support...from the wrong end of a planet? And by support, I mean, destruction of armies surrounding ''supported area''. Ancient and near-perfect weaponary is irreplaceable and extremely hard to replicate for a reason. For example, chimera's chassis can serve from its original transport purpose or it could be modified to serve as body for a heavy-battle tank. Even more, earth to orbit missile defense platforms (manticore) can be made on very same chassis. So, how can you improve that is already so perfect? Another example, lets take vortex weaponary. Creating a rift between warp and real-space is nothing short of eldar weaponary capabilities. Such weapons are extremely hard to produce, so they must be spended with extreme care. Or maybe titans. A giant walkers who can reduce entire armies to ashes and can use up as much ammunition in a single engagement as entire wars. Their effectiveness is unquestionable and every race have its equivalents, strifing it to make larger and larger. Even Tau's new XV104 Riptide suit is just a sign of them trying to achieve same technological level of others races. Bringing an entire spaceship to titans wars doesn't cut it anymore, I guess...