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A very peculiar thing came up in a game that I played tonight. My opponent flew a vendetta onto the board and had the guys inside get out via grav-chute insertion. He put the base model down and rolled for scatter as per deepstrike rules. He then rolled an arrow on the scatter die directly towards his vendetta, and rolled a 7". The deepstriking model landed pretty much in the middle of where the plastic stand for the vendetta was.

This caused a bit of head scratching.

On the one hand, it says that a flier base is effectively ignored with two exceptions - both of which deal with enemy units, not friendly ones. It also says that any models that can physically fit under a flier are permitted to be there.

On the other hand, the model couldn't be physically placed there because of the flying stand. Furthermore, even though it says to ignore the base... well... you're deploying models into the base of one of your models. Surely that counts as part of the model for mishapping purposes.

Intuitively, it's obviously a mishap, but according to the rules, is it actually?

Unable to decide, we decided to 4+ it, and the poor guardsmen were deemed to have mishapped, and thus automatically destroyed as per the rules for grav-chutes, but it did leave me feeling curious to if there is an actual rule about it.

Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

The rule you're after would be Wobbly Model Syndrome. Just put a marker or something down then when you can move the flyer, put the Guardsmen down then.

The "Flyers and other models" rule seems to suggest that any model can stand beneath it as long as it fits there and enemy models must stay 1" away from the hull and it's base.
As it stands right now – RAW friendlies can totally stay under a flyer on it's base even.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

That is not 100% true.

The ignore the base rules are under the "Flyers and Measuring" section, P. 80

You are only allowed to move through terrain. a base of a model is not terrain.

Also P.30 "Models falling back from a combat can freely move through all enemy models that were involved in that combat (they have already missed the chance to catch them) This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

The normal rules, as per page 30, state that "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

In the OP's situation the unit is destroyed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

That is not 100% true.

The ignore the base rules are under the "Flyers and Measuring" section, P. 80

You are only allowed to move through terrain. a base of a model is not terrain.

Also P.30 "Models falling back from a combat can freely move through all enemy models that were involved in that combat (they have already missed the chance to catch them) This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

The normal rules, as per page 30, state that "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

In the OP's situation the unit is destroyed.

Yeah but it also says on page 80 that "Models that can physically fit underneath can move beneath it". Now, what they should've added is "The base of a flyer is counted as clear terrain for friendly models".

 DeathReaper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

That is not 100% true.

The ignore the base rules are under the "Flyers and Measuring" section, P. 80

You are only allowed to move through terrain. a base of a model is not terrain.

Also P.30 "Models falling back from a combat can freely move through all enemy models that were involved in that combat (they have already missed the chance to catch them) This is an exception to the normal rules for moving that state that a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

The normal rules, as per page 30, state that "a model cannot move through a space occupied by another model."

In the OP's situation the unit is destroyed.

I agree.. Mishap..

This one’s come up many times. It falls under the prohibition on moving over/through your own models. The flyer rules are a bit confusing because they tell you to ignore the base except for x and y purposes, and then go on to immediately spell out multiple OTHER purposes for which it’s also not ignored.

You’re never allowed to move onto or over any model’s base. They finally added an general prohibition on moving through friendly models in the BRB FAQ update in April.

I, personally, don't think the flyers should be considered having a base given that they are not connected to the ground in any way. However, it is clear that they do consider the place where they touch the table to be considered a base. This is apparent by the rule where enemy models can not be within an inch of this 'base.' Friendly units can be within the inch limitation, so the exclusion of them being mentioned is not much of an oversight.

However, where in the book does it state that a unit can not stand on top of another units base?

I know it is accepted that they can not do so, and I have never thought they should be able. Yet I can't remember where it is written and I have accepted it for so long that I can't find the right section when flicking through the book. Any assistance to finding this section in the BRB would be appreciated and would likely answer the question put forth from this thread completely and utterly. If it is in a FAQ, can you point me to which one and what page it is on as well as I can easily overlook those things....

You're prohibited from moving through your own models. Models include bases. Therefore...

Yeah, echoing others here... dead guardsmen

 DeathReaper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

That is not 100% true.

The ignore the base rules are under the "Flyers and Measuring" section, P. 80

Where the rule is, is mostly irrelevant as your own post cites "rules" taken from sections that do not apply to the topic at hand.

But, that particular line is not as important as the next paragraph which states. ""Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models"

Now, how can a Flyer end its move over models if the base is not ignored? Its pretty much explicit permission to ignore the base.

Sadly, its all clear as mud.

Because the flyer extends out from its base, in every case I can think of?

Thus the wing can be over a model, without that model being on the base.

It isnt even implicit permission

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Seems clear cut. If they can be there they can be there since the rules says to ignore the flyer base.

That is not 100% true.

The ignore the base rules are under the "Flyers and Measuring" section, P. 80

Where the rule is, is mostly irrelevant as your own post cites "rules" taken from sections that do not apply to the topic at hand.

But, that particular line is not as important as the next paragraph which states. ""Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models"

Now, how can a Flyer end its move over models if the base is not ignored? Its pretty much explicit permission to ignore the base.

Sadly, its all clear as mud.

They are talking about the Hull of the flyer being over models, as you can never have a model on top of another Model/Base.

It is actually clear. The terrain rules tell us we move through terrain, we have no permission to move through anything but terrain. A base is not terrain.

JinxDragon wrote:
However, where in the book does it state that a unit can not stand on top of another units base?

This is like you saying "The rules don't say I can't!" The rules system is permissive, not restrictive.

If you resort to "The rules don't say I can't!", your argument is immediately false. The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

they should be gibbed, its not a mishap on grav-chute, its death.

Apparently that unit wanted to jump out the side doors instead of the rear access point You can't place the unit on the Flyer's base, so the unit was wiped out.

So, I think the answer to this might actually be in the section for deepstriking, which the grav-chute rules say that they use.

In this case, even if you pretend that the base isn't there, it says you can't deepstrike "on top" of friendly units. With ruins, they give an explicit exception to deepstriking underneath something else, but that doesn't appear to be the case with anything else. In this case, I think that the scattering unit would have to be placed on the highest point possible for them to be placed, which, in this case, would be on top of the vendetta, thus causing a mishap.

Except that they don't mishap via Deep Strike. The Grav Chute Insertion rules specify, per the FAQ, "“If any of the models cannot be deployed the unit is destroyed.” You can't place a model on top of a non-destroyed vehicle to my knowledge (and even then that is treated as Dangerous Terrain).

rigeld2 wrote:
You're prohibited from moving through your own models. Models include bases. Therefore...

Yet there are exceptions to this rule, and flyers are one exception that states you can park the thing over top of models if you so wish. With no clear definition if this means for the transparent base of the unit. Oh sure, they point out that enemy units have to still obey the 1" rule but they don't clearly define that friendly get to ignore the base completely or treat it like the base of another model, which is an argument that can be made based on the exception as currently written. People are stating that the units can stand on top of the base, still fitting under the model hull, so why shouldn't they be allowed to do so.

Yet I have figured out an answer to this question and it is supported by RAW:

You can not fit your model under the base of the unit, not on top of it but under it as that is how the exception is written. The base of the unit, for all purposes, is still considered part of the unit itself. With the way the exception is written, you would need to fit the model grav-chuting in under that base and it clearly will not fit. Hence invalid move and the whole unit, which honestly I think should be the models but it does state whole unit, is destroyed.

I feel better now.

The simpler version is that Bases are not terrain, and models are only allowed to move through terrain.

I like my argument better as there are exceptions for when models can pass through other models within the book. Last I looked, that included passing through their base as well or else that 'splitting of hair' would render the exception moot. Not only does one such exception exists in the flyer section of the book, it even ignores something which is found in all other exceptions to the 'moving through model rule' you keep quoting. That being that it even ignores the whole stopping on top of other models!

So my argument addresses it far better then simply ignoring the exception, by using the wording within that exception to make the base off limits to friendly units:

If you an fit a model between that tiny gap between the base and the board, without it touching the base at all, you quality for the exception outlined in the flyer section of the book.

Good luck!

 DeathReaper wrote:
The simpler version is that Bases are not terrain, and models are only allowed to move through terrain.

I'm not sure I follow you here.

Did someone claim that Bases are terrain? I saw someone mention that Destroyed Vehicles count as Dangerous Terrain. Perhaps you misread.

Models are allowed to move, per the movement rules. The battlefield starts as an empty space. Once terrain is placed, the rest of the battlefield is treated as a type of terrain called Open Ground. You can deduce from this that "models are only allowed to move through terrain." Is there a rule that says this that I missed, or were you following the logical consequences and stating a deduction as a rule?

Your rule or GW's, there would, of course be exceptions - Jump troops, Skimmers, Zooming Flyers, Swooping MCs... The idea seems to be covered in the previous posts. The embarked models disembarking via Grav Shoot Insertion do not have an exception.

I thought the simpler version was summed up quite nicely by rigeld "You're prohibited from moving through your own models. Models include bases. Therefore..." This plus the lack of exception seems to cover it.

I was quite grateful for that GW Official Update entry. It cleared up some rather silly RAW interpretations and the need to make circuitous deductive arguments.

Edit: Ninja'd by JinxDragon. Added bonus, he included the rational ramifications for the simple interpretation. Well done sir

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The simpler version is that Bases are not terrain, and models are only allowed to move through terrain.

I'm not sure I follow you here.

Did someone claim that Bases are terrain?

No, they wanted to know if they could land on a flyers base. All I said was the simple version of the explanation is that models are only allowed to move through terrain and bases are not terrain.

Models are allowed to move, per the movement rules. The battlefield starts as an empty space. Once terrain is placed, the rest of the battlefield is treated as a type of terrain called Open Ground. You can deduce from this that "models are only allowed to move through terrain." Is there a rule that says this that I missed, or were you following the logical consequences and stating a deduction as a rule?

It is a deduction from P. 90 where it lists the terrain types and gives the rules for moving through terrain types.

It does not say you can move through the space occupied by another model, therefore you can not do it.

Your rule or GW's, there would, of course be exceptions - Jump troops, Skimmers, Zooming Flyers, Swooping MCs... The idea seems to be covered in the previous posts. The embarked models disembarking via Grav Shoot Insertion do not have an exception.

The exceptions are that "a model can move over all other models and all terrain freely."P.47

Note it says over, not through.

JinxDragon wrote:
I like my argument better as there are exceptions for when models can pass through other models within the book. Last I looked, that included passing through their base as well or else that 'splitting of hair' would render the exception moot. Not only does one such exception exists in the flyer section of the book, it even ignores something which is found in all other exceptions to the 'moving through model rule' you keep quoting. That being that it even ignores the whole stopping on top of other models!

So my argument addresses it far better then simply ignoring the exception, by using the wording within that exception to make the base off limits to friendly units:

If you an fit a model between that tiny gap between the base and the board, without it touching the base at all, you quality for the exception outlined in the flyer section of the book.

Good luck!

See this is just confusing.

Models can not pass through other models.

Jump units "can move over all other models" not through them. (This includes Jump Pack equipped units(P.47), and FMC's as Swooping and Gliding FMC's follow the rules for Jump MC's (P.49)).

"A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units"P. 80

The same applies to Zooming Flyers, they move over not through.

I will put forth some clarification as my word choice clearly wasn't the best:

When I used the words 'moving through,' I also meant crossing the airspace above another model. In normal circumstances, you can not simply make a move legal by declaring that your models are going over the top of the others. Even if they have a clear means to do so, such as being large enough to step over or small enough to go underneath, they can not do so.

They simply lack the required rule which would allow the move to be legal.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baaack to the flyers:

Flyers grant a table wide exception to the normal movement rules that can not be ignored. This doesn't just allow all models, friendly or enemy, to move underneath the flyer but also stop their turns there. The shortest way to put this is that the a model can stand underneath another model using this exception even though every other case, outside of multi-layered structures, such placement would be invalid.

So the question was raised: How does this exception effect units that grav-chute in, particularly those that end up hitting the base of the unit?

The concern comes from the fact that a model might be small enough to stand on top of the base, either with or without wobbly model syndrome, without touching the underside of the flyer itself. The key to answering this question comes in the simple fact: The base is considered part of the unit. It doesn't matter that logically it wouldn't be there, with the flyer thousands of feet above the battle and not connected to the ground in any way. Rule wise, the base is part of the flyer and treated as part of the flyer for all purposes.

Now the exception being evoked has a limitation and if that limitation can not be met, the exception can not be evoked. That limitation is that the model must fit underneath the flyer without touching any part of the flyer itself, or else it can easily be argued that it does not 'fit.' This is why I wished the player good luck in fitting his model between the base of the flyer and the table top, as that base is part of the flyer and has to be taken into consideration. Unless they can perform this impossible feet they can not evoke the exception which allows a model to end their move with a flyer above them.

Conclusion: The limitation has not been met, the exception can not be evoked, the final placement is now invalid and the unit is destroyed.