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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/21 14:26:38
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Fresh-Faced New User
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OK so it has been a while since I have been involved in the tournament circuit, but last time I did (3rd edition) I remember in addition to winning games, you were also scored on three other categories:
1) Quality of the paint job
2) Sportsmanship
3) Army Composition
Does this still happen? The reason I ask is I see a lot of Tournament Army compositions floating around here with 2 minimum size troops squads and then hopped up on elites/HQ/etc. Or the Night Scythe army for necrons where the warriors are there only to get the night scythes into the game thanks to the crazy power of armor 13 fliers with great weapons. I remember army compositions for tournaments requring no more than 20-25% spent on HQs and a minimum ammount spent on troops choices, etc. Is this not the case anymore? Or do people just not care about the army comp part of their score and go for as many total victories as possible?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/21 14:29:01
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Twisted Trueborn with Blaster
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archamedius wrote:Or the Night Scythe army for necrons where the warriors are there only to get the night scythes into the game thanks to the crazy power of armor 13 fliers with great weapons.
Night Scythes are only AV11, just FYI.
But I think some Tourneys do give out prizes (or score you on) Best Painted, Most Sporting etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/21 14:38:28
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Fresh-Faced New User
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HerbaciousT wrote:archamedius wrote:Or the Night Scythe army for necrons where the warriors are there only to get the night scythes into the game thanks to the crazy power of armor 13 fliers with great weapons.
Night Scythes are only AV11, just FYI.
But I think some Tourneys do give out prizes (or score you on) Best Painted, Most Sporting etc.
Not to get off topic, but doesn't the night scythe get that quantum shield that makes your armor 2 points higher till you take a pen hit?
Back on topic:
It used to be that those scores played into the final overall score to see who was grand champion, and in additon they would give out best sportsman and best painted army scores. The rub was, you had to be a good enough general to win all three games AND then have the best army comp score, etc. I don't see anyone taking a very beardy army getting a good army comp score so even if they win all three games they should lose to the guy who takes a more balanced army and scores higher on army comp.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/21 14:54:25
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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archamedius wrote: HerbaciousT wrote:archamedius wrote:Or the Night Scythe army for necrons where the warriors are there only to get the night scythes into the game thanks to the crazy power of armor 13 fliers with great weapons.
Night Scythes are only AV11, just FYI.
But I think some Tourneys do give out prizes (or score you on) Best Painted, Most Sporting etc.
Not to get off topic, but doesn't the night scythe get that quantum shield that makes your armor 2 points higher till you take a pen hit?
Back on topic:
It used to be that those scores played into the final overall score to see who was grand champion, and in additon they would give out best sportsman and best painted army scores. The rub was, you had to be a good enough general to win all three games AND then have the best army comp score, etc. I don't see anyone taking a very beardy army getting a good army comp score so even if they win all three games they should lose to the guy who takes a more balanced army and scores higher on army comp.
No, flyers don't have quantum shielding. I wish they had
All the big sized tournaments I know of here only have the additional points for painting. When it comes to lists, anything goes. Sportsmanship, well, there hasn't been any reasons we need this so far.
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"Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! These are the truths of this world! Surrender to these truths, you pigs in human clothing!" - Satsuki Kiryuin, Kill la Kill |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/21 19:42:25
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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Army composition scores have been dead for a long time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 01:48:33
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
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JWhex wrote:Army composition scores have been dead for a long time.
And almost all of them were horrible conceived to boot, so generally I say good riddance...
The one thing I do heavily dislike about the tournament scene, (at least as it was before I gave-up on it), was the systematic elimination of all so-called 'soft scores'. (ie: painting/army appearance, sportsmanship and overall)
The idea of crap like 'Ard Boyz has done a helluva lot to really ruin the hobby in general by simply promoting nothing more than a complete "winning games is the only measuring stick that counts" type of attitude, such that it seems now, if you don't play "pro-level" all the time you're doing it wrong/need to L2p/are a stupid noob/etc...
I do get that in general we all like to compete and we like to win, but after playing the same carbon-copy cookie-cutter lists for the 'umpteenth time, it's pretty damn boring.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 01:55:18
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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That's kinda sad to hear. I never really got into the whole tournament thing (that would require having an actual painted army and some means to transport it... I'm a poor college student who can't afford this hobby) but I always thought that you could actually show up and win something based on painting or sportsmanship without having to win the most games.
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Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 02:42:07
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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dementedwombat wrote:That's kinda sad to hear. I never really got into the whole tournament thing (that would require having an actual painted army and some means to transport it... I'm a poor college student who can't afford this hobby) but I always thought that you could actually show up and win something based on painting or sportsmanship without having to win the most games.
It's called a painting competition, you enter it and win based on your painting.
It's a tournament in which people play 40k competitively. Could you imagine soft scores in a football game? Chelsea had the better kit and sportsmanship, so they won the Premier League instead of Manchester United, who scored more goals. Soft scores have gone the way of the dodo because people enjoy playing the game to win.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 03:11:07
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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JWhex wrote:Army composition scores have been dead for a long time.
Depends on where you play.
Down here in Oz, Comp is still alive and well. Some tournies run without comp, but it's definitely not universal yet.
Presentation and Sports both tend to still hang in there though... which is a good thing, IMO, particularly in the case of Sports. If 40K had a good, hardline tournament ruleset, it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but in a game as loosely written as this one, taking it all too seriusly just doesn't work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 03:12:00
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Lots of Tournaments have painting competitions but they are generally judged separately from the games. Or its a simple point bonus for being painted or not.
It all depends on the tournament and who is organizing it.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 04:41:31
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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archamedius wrote:OK so it has been a while since I have been involved in the tournament circuit, but last time I did (3rd edition) I remember in addition to winning games, you were also scored on three other categories:
You’re nine years out of the loop? Welcome back!
There are still many events which include Sportsmanship and Painting points in a total aggregate score. Others focus primarily on Battle, but give separate prizes for Appearance and Sportsmanship. And there are events which do BOTH at the same time.
For example, the Adepticon Championships Qualifier has spaces for 256 players on day 1. At the end of the four rounds on day 1, they give prizes to the Best Overall (Battle + Sports + Painting), Best Sport, best Painted, Player’s Choice, as well as Best Heretical, Best Imperial and Best Xenos (same combo as Best Overall, for each of those army groupings). ALSO, the top 16 players scored purely on Battle move on to a second day playoff down to one undefeated champion for Battles. For another example, the NOVA Open does something similar, where after 6 rounds they give Overall/aggregate awards, and again the top Battles players continue battling it out. They also bracket players based on their performance in their first 4 games, and place everyone into playoff brackets against people who had the same (or very close) record. This year NOVA is also giving a parallel
Composition scoring has largely vanished, except in perhaps some smaller, local venues. It was always a hot-button topic, with some players staunchly opposed to it, but starting somewhere around the release of 5th edition, more and more players started seeing it as unnecessary. The codices in general got a bit better-balanced against one another, and more importantly, the missions in the rulebook stopped being about Victory Points killed and started being primarily focused on objectives held by Scoring Units (which are mostly Troops).
So Composition, to some extent, starting being built into the missions/rules. And it became easier to win by outmaneuvering your opponent, even if he killed more of your stuff while you were doing it. Back when Victory Points killed was the primary determining factor of winning a game, a more powerful codex/army list not only started with a leg up in the battle, they generally increased their edge throughout the game by being more efficient at killing stuff. This made it difficult for a weaker/fluffier army to compete or to recover once they were behind. But with missions mostly focused on objectives, you can sustain more damage to your units and still win the game.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 11:41:35
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote: dementedwombat wrote:That's kinda sad to hear. I never really got into the whole tournament thing (that would require having an actual painted army and some means to transport it... I'm a poor college student who can't afford this hobby) but I always thought that you could actually show up and win something based on painting or sportsmanship without having to win the most games.
It's called a painting competition, you enter it and win based on your painting.
It's a tournament in which people play 40k competitively. Could you imagine soft scores in a football game? Chelsea had the better kit and sportsmanship, so they won the Premier League instead of Manchester United, who scored more goals. Soft scores have gone the way of the dodo because people enjoy playing the game to win.
I don't follow European Football (soccer), but in American Football they have penalties like unsportsmanlike conduct that the refs call during the game and those can negate plays and swing the balance of the game. I think in soccer they have red cards and yellow cards for the same thing. The difference in 40k tournaments is you don't have a ref to call out stuff like that, so I always viewed the sportsmanship and army comp scores as kinda making up for that.
Mannahnin wrote:archamedius wrote:OK so it has been a while since I have been involved in the tournament circuit, but last time I did (3rd edition) I remember in addition to winning games, you were also scored on three other categories:
You’re nine years out of the loop? Welcome back!
There are still many events which include Sportsmanship and Painting points in a total aggregate score. Others focus primarily on Battle, but give separate prizes for Appearance and Sportsmanship. And there are events which do BOTH at the same time.
For example, the Adepticon Championships Qualifier has spaces for 256 players on day 1. At the end of the four rounds on day 1, they give prizes to the Best Overall (Battle + Sports + Painting), Best Sport, best Painted, Player’s Choice, as well as Best Heretical, Best Imperial and Best Xenos (same combo as Best Overall, for each of those army groupings). ALSO, the top 16 players scored purely on Battle move on to a second day playoff down to one undefeated champion for Battles. For another example, the NOVA Open does something similar, where after 6 rounds they give Overall/aggregate awards, and again the top Battles players continue battling it out. They also bracket players based on their performance in their first 4 games, and place everyone into playoff brackets against people who had the same (or very close) record. This year NOVA is also giving a parallel
Composition scoring has largely vanished, except in perhaps some smaller, local venues. It was always a hot-button topic, with some players staunchly opposed to it, but starting somewhere around the release of 5th edition, more and more players started seeing it as unnecessary. The codices in general got a bit better-balanced against one another, and more importantly, the missions in the rulebook stopped being about Victory Points killed and started being primarily focused on objectives held by Scoring Units (which are mostly Troops).
So Composition, to some extent, starting being built into the missions/rules. And it became easier to win by outmaneuvering your opponent, even if he killed more of your stuff while you were doing it. Back when Victory Points killed was the primary determining factor of winning a game, a more powerful codex/army list not only started with a leg up in the battle, they generally increased their edge throughout the game by being more efficient at killing stuff. This made it difficult for a weaker/fluffier army to compete or to recover once they were behind. But with missions mostly focused on objectives, you can sustain more damage to your units and still win the game.
Thank you sir! Both for your welcome and for the comprehensive response. It makes a lot more sense now to me. Thank you for explaining the history and background behind the shift in focus. When I played last you had objective based missions but they were definitely in their infancy. So if the games are much more largely based around what you do on the map then mobility seems key along with target choice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/22 15:09:31
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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Grumpy Longbeard
New York
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archamedius wrote:
I don't follow European Football (soccer), but in American Football they have penalties like unsportsmanlike conduct that the refs call during the game and those can negate plays and swing the balance of the game. I think in soccer they have red cards and yellow cards for the same thing. The difference in 40k tournaments is you don't have a ref to call out stuff like that, so I always viewed the sportsmanship and army comp scores as kinda making up for that.
The key difference here is that in professional sports you don't get brownie points for displaying good sportsmanship, you merely get penalized for egregious misconduct.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/23 02:51:40
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Right. Since professional sports players are being paid big bucks to play, they don't need material incentives to be good sports. They do get some substantial penalties (free throws, penalty shots, penalty yardage, multi-thousand dollar fines or suspensions) for bad sportsmanship, though.
The more recent trend to Pass/Fail sports scoring mimics this a bit. Although wargamers often also like to reward and recognize particularly good sports/fun players.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/23 13:36:49
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran
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The problem with Sportmanship scores is that they can easily be used to sabotage your opponents, ironically.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/24 03:46:43
Subject: Re:Tournament Scoring
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[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion
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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:The problem with Sportmanship scores is that they can easily be used to sabotage your opponents, ironically.
Depends on the system, when I've played any negative reviews have been followed up by a judge to make sure that it was for an actual reason, and you had to give an actual reason, 'just cos' wasn't good enough, they asked for you to point out a part of the game which made you do that.
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I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/05/24 04:43:15
Subject: Tournament Scoring
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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And of course the problem with not having Sportsmanship scoring is that you then lack a mechanism to counter and discourage unsportsmanlike behavior and cheating other than a judge witnessing the offense and actually being willing to confront the player and impose a penalty. Magic: tG doesn’t have Sports scoring, instead relying on judge-awarded penalties, but their system has weaknesses and issues too (see Round 7 of the below-linked report):
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m11limited/20240_The_Grind_Part_1.html
Tabletop wargaming is a collaborative and (ironically) cooperative activity, despite the game being competitive. By giving rewards or penalties for Sportsmanship, by including it in the scoring, we (as a community and as TOs) emphasize that this is an important part of the game.
No system is perfect, of course, and any system (or lack thereof) can be abused.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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