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 Akar wrote:
Please give rules/references to support your statement.

Which statement are you questioning? None of what I've said is a leap.

You choose to use DWA. Agreed?
By choosing to use DWA, you are electing to Deep Strike. Agreed?
Unless otherwise excepted, you must be in Reserves to Deep Strike. Agreed?
To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. Agreed?
If you're using the rules for Reserves, you must use them wholly and not piecemeal to fit your argument. Agreed?
The rules for Reserves put a limit on how many units can be in Reserves. Agreed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Please give rules/references to support your statement.

Which statement are you questioning? None of what I've said is a leap.

You choose to use DWA. Agreed?
By choosing to use DWA, you are electing to Deep Strike. Agreed?
Unless otherwise excepted, you must be in Reserves to Deep Strike. Agreed?
To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. Agreed?
If you're using the rules for Reserves, you must use them wholly and not piecemeal to fit your argument. Agreed?
The rules for Reserves put a limit on how many units can be in Reserves. Agreed?

100% this.

Only 50% of your units can be in reserve and units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule do count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves at the start of a battle.

Yes, as above

I'm not sure what is so tricky about this. Only by flat out making upi rules (pretending you are not in reserves being the most laughably obvious made up rule) can you somehow exempt yourself from the permission to only deploy 50% in reserves

 Akar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Are you deploying your army when choosing to DWA? (Hint: the answer is yes)

Really, no mention is made of deploying in my Codex: Dark Angels? You either choose to do it or not? Or is there an FAQ or rule somewhere that says they are in fact deploying?

- Determine Warlord Traits (BRB)
- CHOOSE ANY Deathwing units to DWA (C: DA)
- Deploy Forces (BRB)
- Prepare Reserves / Permission to keep up to 1/2 in Reserve (BRB)
- DWA units COUNT toward this 1/2 limit (FAQ)

Read through this again and see that you've actually made the point that you cannot put an entire DWA army into reserves.

Or, we can spell it out. Let's assume an army of 8 Deathwing units and nothing else, for the sake of argument

- Determine Warlord Traits (BRB) - Yes, fine
- Choose any DW units to DWA (CA) - Choose all 8 DW units to DWA
- Deploy Forces (BRB)
- Prepare reserves - up to 1/2 of units may enter reserves (BRB) - Oops, only 4 of those 8 DW units may enter reserves because (FAQ) DWA units DO count towards the limit, which means 1/2 of 8 units (in this example) = 4 units may enter reserves upon deployment, the other 4 must be on the board (as no units here MUST enter from reserves, all units count towards the limit).

rigeld2 wrote:
Please give rules/references to support your statement.
Which statement are you questioning? None of what I've said is a leap.

1 - You choose to use DWA. Agreed?
2 - By choosing to use DWA, you are electing to Deep Strike. Agreed?
3 - Unless otherwise excepted, you must be in Reserves to Deep Strike. Agreed?
4 - To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. Agreed?
5 - If you're using the rules for Reserves, you must use them wholly and not piecemeal to fit your argument. Agreed?
6 - The rules for Reserves put a limit on how many units can be in Reserves. Agreed?

(Numbers added to answer)

1 - Yes
2 - You are electing to DWA, not Deep Strike. You enter play using the rules for Deep Strike per the DWA rule. Arriving by Deep Strike doesn't replace arriving by DWA at any point in the process.
3 - C: DA is an exception.
4 - Nowhere is this supported. Especially when no mention is made in the exception.
5 - There is no conflict here. We are using the entire rules for Reserves. Since we are choosing to DWA prior to choosing to keep our units in Reserve when deploying forces. This is the leap you are making.
6 - No they permit a player to keep 50% of his force in reserve, when deploying forces. It is conditional, not global and if you choose to interpret it differently I can accept that. It's incorrect to state that it's the rule however when you have no rule to support this interpretation.

There is no rule that says only 50% of your forces can be in Reserve (or that you must start with 50% of your force on the table). This something people keep quoting, but fail to show where it says it. DWA makes several exceptions to the Reserves/Deep strike rules. First, any and all Terminator units in C: DA have this option. There is no mention of the Reserves rule ever applying to using DWA at the time a player is allowed to use it. That qualifies it as an exception, thus it is allowed.

IIRC, most other Terminator entries permit a player to always use the Reserves rule, even when the Reserves rule is not being used. Now in this edition, the Reserves rule is always in use, and there are several players out there who will still use more than 50% of allowance to put Terminators in Reserve using this rule. Dark Angel Terminator entry doesn't have this allowance, so they can only choose to Deep Strike if the Reserves rule is being used. However, no such condition is present in the DWA rules. The player is allowed to use the DWA rule on any number of units that meet the criteria. It specifically doesn't use the Reserves rule to place units in Reserve.

Now they are in Reserve, but they were not deployed there. To further support this, the option is used immediately after the 'Determine Warlord Traits', prior to 'Deploy forces'. So it is in print, an exception. For your argument to be completely infallible, it would have to state something like 'When deploying Deathwing units they may choose to use DWA', 'May choose to use DWA subject to the Reserves rule', or 'Units of Deathwing Terminators IN RESERVE, may choose to use DWA and arrive automatically on the chosen turn'. However, it's clear that Vetock went out of his way to insure that the wording was specifically NONE of these things. So how can you apply a rule, when he's gone to such trouble of making sure that no reference to Reserves at this step?

The FAQ NEEDED to be written cause when we get to the 'Deploy Forces' step, and apply the Reserves rule like the BRB says when a player is permitted to, we have to calculate which units and how many are eligible. The BRB only covers units that must enter play via Deep Strike, Flyers, etc. C: DA created a new funny situation where we have units that are in Reserve, but they they aren't forced to be there. It was NEVER an issue of whether they can all be there or not, C: DA already allows for any and all DW units to be there. What we didn't know was if other, non-Terminator units (or Terminator units not wishing to use DWA), were still eligible to be placed in Reserve. I do remember reading several lists where players were planning to DWA 3-4 units and keep 1-2 units in Reserve, to arrive via Deep Strike at a later point in the game to have some flexibility to adjust to objectives.

There is absolutely NO justification or reasoning that since they count as being in reserves, they must also be limited to 50% of the force. They are ENTIRELY different applications and there is no conflict with the rules by allowing it, which doesn't sit well with a lot of people. So is it possible to have units count toward the limit w/o being deployed there? Absolutely, thats what an FAQ is, and this is the extent of the application of the Reserves rule at this time. Your adding in the part to the FAQ wishing it said 'Yes the count toward the reserve limit, and is subject to the 50% rule.' I keep looking, but it's simply not there.

Now when we get to the actual game play, that's when the other exceptions come into play, but aren't a part of this discussion.

-----
I've laid everything out here as clear as I can make it. I ACCEPT that it is one interpretation, and not THE finalized interpretation of the rule. We won't have that till GW addresses the actual problem in an FAQ, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. If I was asking a rules specific question, then I'd contact GW, and wait till the next edition for them to address it. No, Im asking how people are able to forcibly applying an FAQ addressing one issue, to somehow apply to another issue as if they're the same thing?

Now if you're going to restate what you've stated in the past few posts, without actually showing any rules to support your argument, then don't. I've read it, I understand your viewpoint but it's nothing that you haven't already said, and repeating it isn't going to make it any more correct than it already is or isn't. You've consistently failed to show how or where the 50% rule applies to units using DWA, when DWA specifically addresses that it happens at a time that isn't 'Deploy Forces', so you're not going to change my mind on it with that line of reasoning. I'd rather wait for someone else to reply, hopefully with relevant references, than have this thread locked, because it turns into another 15+ page thread about how you are trying to prove that your interpretation is THE interpretation.

Personally I don't play a Deathwing Army, I do play a Ravenwing army so I've read the Dex. I don't want to play against 30-40 Terminators, in Assault Range, on Turn 1 any more than the next guy. I also don't want GW to raise their prices or have Mat Ward involved in any aspect of the gaming hobby as a whole. I am against this apparent Witch Hunt against Deathwing players finally getting some much needed love, and after all this time, they still have to fight for something that they are clearly allowed to do.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rorschach9 wrote:

- Prepare reserves - up to 1/2 of units may enter reserves (BRB) - Oops, only 4 of those 8 DW units may enter reserves because (FAQ) DWA units DO count towards the limit, which means 1/2 of 8 units (in this example) = 4 units may enter reserves upon deployment, the other 4 must be on the board (as no units here MUST enter from reserves, all units count towards the limit).

Valid point, I should've put ANY/ALL units in there - they all do have the unrestricted option to do so per the DWA rules. Again, the FAQ only clarifies that they count toward the limit, and not if they are affected by it. It's just to restrict other units from being in reserve when the time comes to deploy forces, and that DA players should plan accordingly. (Thank you for pointing this out.)

When you reach the 'Prepare Reserves' step, the choice to utilize DWA has already passed. By the wording of the DWA rule, once a player has reached the 'Deploy Forces' step, he technically no longer has the option to choose DWA, that opportunity has passed. Tactically the only time I can see this potentially being a problem is that the DA player deploys his forces, then decides based on what he sees, if he want's to DWA. The choice to DWA must be made before any models are deployed. In Practice, it becomes more of a Sportsmanship issue to actually force a player to not be able to use DWA at any time during his pre-game. Regardless, NOTHING in the Reserve rule removes units from Reserve once they are already there. There is no precedent for that.

rigeld2 wrote:1 - You choose to use DWA. Agreed?
2 - By choosing to use DWA, you are electing to Deep Strike. Agreed?
3 - Unless otherwise excepted, you must be in Reserves to Deep Strike. Agreed?
4 - To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. Agreed?
5 - If you're using the rules for Reserves, you must use them wholly and not piecemeal to fit your argument. Agreed?
6 - The rules for Reserves put a limit on how many units can be in Reserves. Agreed?

 Akar wrote:

2 - You are electing to DWA, not Deep Strike. You enter play using the rules for Deep Strike per the DWA rule. Arriving by Deep Strike doesn't replace arriving by DWA at any point in the process.

This is contradictory...

You say you are not DSing, then go on to say "You enter play using the rules for Deep Strike" which is DSing...

3 - C: DA is an exception.

So if you are not in reserve, as you claim, and you are not deployed where are the units. Page and Graph for this mythical third place a unit is at the beginning of the game.

4 - Nowhere is this supported. Especially when no mention is made in the exception.

It is supported because it follows logic. To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. This is a logical conclusion to the question of how does one put a unit into reserve?

5 - There is no conflict here. We are using the entire rules for Reserves. Since we are choosing to DWA prior to choosing to keep our units in Reserve when deploying forces. This is the leap you are making.

Timing does not matter, you are only allowed to put 50% of your units into reserve. the units using DWA are definitely in reserve, as they are not deployed, and those are the only two places units can be at the beginning of the game.

6 - No, they permit a player to keep 50% of his force in reserve, when deploying forces. It is conditional, not global and if you choose to interpret it differently I can accept that. It's incorrect to state that it's the rule however when you have no rule to support this interpretation

And if you put 100% of you units into reserve using DWA are you only keeping "50% of his force in reserve" The answer is clearly no.

 Akar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Please give rules/references to support your statement.
Which statement are you questioning? None of what I've said is a leap.

1 - You choose to use DWA. Agreed?
2 - By choosing to use DWA, you are electing to Deep Strike. Agreed?
3 - Unless otherwise excepted, you must be in Reserves to Deep Strike. Agreed?
4 - To put a unit in Reserves, you must be using the rules for Reserves. Agreed?
5 - If you're using the rules for Reserves, you must use them wholly and not piecemeal to fit your argument. Agreed?
6 - The rules for Reserves put a limit on how many units can be in Reserves. Agreed?

(Numbers added to answer)

1 - Yes
2 - You are electing to DWA, not Deep Strike. You enter play using the rules for Deep Strike per the DWA rule. Arriving by Deep Strike doesn't replace arriving by DWA at any point in the process.
3 - C: DA is an exception.
4 - Nowhere is this supported. Especially when no mention is made in the exception.
5 - There is no conflict here. We are using the entire rules for Reserves. Since we are choosing to DWA prior to choosing to keep our units in Reserve when deploying forces. This is the leap you are making.
6 - No they permit a player to keep 50% of his force in reserve, when deploying forces. It is conditional, not global and if you choose to interpret it differently I can accept that. It's incorrect to state that it's the rule however when you have no rule to support this interpretation.

There is no rule that says only 50% of your forces can be in Reserve (or that you must start with 50% of your force on the table). This something people keep quoting, but fail to show where it says it. DWA makes several exceptions to the Reserves/Deep strike rules. First, any and all Terminator units in C: DA have this option. There is no mention of the Reserves rule ever applying to using DWA at the time a player is allowed to use it. That qualifies it as an exception, thus it is allowed.

3 - there's an exception in C: DA? What page?
4 - unsupported? How can you put models in Reserves without using the rules for Reserves?
5 - I've proven that you are in fact deploying when making a DWA choice.
6 - So there isn't a limit on the number of units a player can place into Reserves?

IIRC, most other Terminator entries permit a player to always use the Reserves rule, even when the Reserves rule is not being used. Now in this edition, the Reserves rule is always in use, and there are several players out there who will still use more than 50% of allowance to put Terminators in Reserve using this rule. Dark Angel Terminator entry doesn't have this allowance, so they can only choose to Deep Strike if the Reserves rule is being used. However, no such condition is present in the DWA rules. The player is allowed to use the DWA rule on any number of units that meet the criteria. It specifically doesn't use the Reserves rule to place units in Reserve.

It explicitly requires the units to Deep Strike. This requires a unit to be in Reserves unless there's an exemption. You've failed to cite one, please do so.

Now they are in Reserve, but they were not deployed there. To further support this, the option is used immediately after the 'Determine Warlord Traits', prior to 'Deploy forces'. So it is in print, an exception. For your argument to be completely infallible, it would have to state something like 'When deploying Deathwing units they may choose to use DWA', 'May choose to use DWA subject to the Reserves rule', or 'Units of Deathwing Terminators IN RESERVE, may choose to use DWA and arrive automatically on the chosen turn'. However, it's clear that Vetock went out of his way to insure that the wording was specifically NONE of these things. So how can you apply a rule, when he's gone to such trouble of making sure that no reference to Reserves at this step?

How can a unit be in Reserves without using the rules for Reserves?
You may wish that it needed more text to clarify, but the rules are what they are.

The FAQ NEEDED to be written cause when we get to the 'Deploy Forces' step, and apply the Reserves rule like the BRB says when a player is permitted to, we have to calculate which units and how many are eligible. The BRB only covers units that must enter play via Deep Strike, Flyers, etc. C: DA created a new funny situation where we have units that are in Reserve, but they they aren't forced to be there. It was NEVER an issue of whether they can all be there or not, C: DA already allows for any and all DW units to be there. What we didn't know was if other, non-Terminator units (or Terminator units not wishing to use DWA), were still eligible to be placed in Reserve. I do remember reading several lists where players were planning to DWA 3-4 units and keep 1-2 units in Reserve, to arrive via Deep Strike at a later point in the game to have some flexibility to adjust to objectives.

No, you're wholly incorrect with the reason the FAQ was required. You can pretend your interpretation is correct, but I've proven otherwise.

There is absolutely NO justification or reasoning that since they count as being in reserves, they must also be limited to 50% of the force. They are ENTIRELY different applications and there is no conflict with the rules by allowing it, which doesn't sit well with a lot of people. So is it possible to have units count toward the limit w/o being deployed there? Absolutely, thats what an FAQ is, and this is the extent of the application of the Reserves rule at this time. Your adding in the part to the FAQ wishing it said 'Yes the count toward the reserve limit, and is subject to the 50% rule.' I keep looking, but it's simply not there.

I'm adding nothing. At all.
You're inventing things out of whole cloth.

I've laid everything out here as clear as I can make it. I ACCEPT that it is one interpretation, and not THE finalized interpretation of the rule. We won't have that till GW addresses the actual problem in an FAQ, and I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same. If I was asking a rules specific question, then I'd contact GW, and wait till the next edition for them to address it. No, Im asking how people are able to forcibly applying an FAQ addressing one issue, to somehow apply to another issue as if they're the same thing?

No, sorry, I won't pretend you're correct when you're demonstrably not. You're failing to apply rules correctly because that's the only way your interpretation can be correct.

Now if you're going to restate what you've stated in the past few posts, without actually showing any rules to support your argument, then don't. I've read it, I understand your viewpoint but it's nothing that you haven't already said, and repeating it isn't going to make it any more correct than it already is or isn't. You've consistently failed to show how or where the 50% rule applies to units using DWA, when DWA specifically addresses that it happens at a time that isn't 'Deploy Forces', so you're not going to change my mind on it with that line of reasoning. I'd rather wait for someone else to reply, hopefully with relevant references, than have this thread locked, because it turns into another 15+ page thread about how you are trying to prove that your interpretation is THE interpretation.

I've failed to cite rules? Are you joking?

Personally I don't play a Deathwing Army, I do play a Ravenwing army so I've read the Dex. I don't want to play against 30-40 Terminators, in Assault Range, on Turn 1 any more than the next guy. I also don't want GW to raise their prices or have Mat Ward involved in any aspect of the gaming hobby as a whole. I am against this apparent Witch Hunt against Deathwing players finally getting some much needed love, and after all this time, they still have to fight for something that they are clearly allowed to do.

What? Insinuating bias is extremely insulting. Please apologize.

Stuff that has to start off in DS doesn't count for the purposes of calculating the 50% army DeepStrike rule :3

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Stuff that has to start off in DS doesn't count for the purposes of calculating the 50% army DeepStrike rule :3

And? Do Dark Angels models in Terminator Armour have to start in reserve? If they do they don't count. If they can start on the table they count. Plus the FAQ says they count.

My mind is blown.

An FAQ comes out that clearly states that units deploying via DWA actually DO count towards the 50% Reserves allowance and yet someone is still arguing that they don't?

Mind. Blown.

The issue ISN'T whether they count toward the limit, the issue is whether or not they all can or not, like in a pure DW army.

Where in the FAQ/Errata did they change the wording of DWA to disallow all DW Terminator units from being able to use DWA, and become subject to the 50% allowance?

The part that says they count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves...

It clearly states they count.

Units using DWA are kept in reserve as they must DS in. Things that DS in have to be in reserve.

Unless you have a Page and Graph to the contrary, please follow the tenets of the forum and post the page and graph. If not then concede in the face of the actual rules quotes.

I'm on board with the "counts towards, but not limited by" argument. CA specifically states that units with the DWA rule may choose. Nowhere does it state that only half the army can deploy this way. The FAQ says that they count towards the 50% which only means that if 6 of 10 units in the army are arriving via DWA, you can't place any other units in reserve. If 4 of 10 are using DWA, then you could choose to place another unit in reserve.

Special rules override general rules.

helotaxi wrote:
I'm on board with the "counts towards, but not limited by" argument. CA specifically states that units with the DWA rule may choose. Nowhere does it state that only half the army can deploy this way. The FAQ says that they count towards the 50% which only means that if 6 of 10 units in the army are arriving via DWA, you can't place any other units in reserve. If 4 of 10 are using DWA, then you could choose to place another unit in reserve.

Special rules override general rules.

"Q: Do units deploying via the Deathwing Assault special rule count toward the limit of units you are allowed to keep in Reserves at the start of a battle? (p44)
A: Yes."

You are wrong. The reserve rules explicitly say that only half the army can deploy in reserves, with exceptions noted/faq'd as necessary. The above FAQ then goes on to specify how this works with DWA.

helotaxi wrote:
I'm on board with the "counts towards, but not limited by" argument. CA specifically states that units with the DWA rule may choose. Nowhere does it state that only half the army can deploy this way. The FAQ says that they count towards the 50% which only means that if 6 of 10 units in the army are arriving via DWA, you can't place any other units in reserve. If 4 of 10 are using DWA, then you could choose to place another unit in reserve.

Special rules override general rules.

Yet the FAQ says youre wrong

Akar - so, theyre in Reserves but theyre not in reserves, when it suits your argument only?
WHere is this mysterious third place? Page and graph.

Further refusal to provide actual rules quotes - something you have consistently failed utterly to do in this thread, in contravention of the rules of the forum - will be considered acceptance that you have no argument.

The FAQ says I'm wrong if, and only if, "counts towards" and "is limited by" mean the same thing.

The DWA rule breaks the Reserves and Deep Strike by both its wording and intent. Both Deep Strike and Reserves tell you to roll for reserves. DWA specifically says you do not. To follow your logic, explicitly, the DWA rule doesn't exist since we have to follow the BRB for both Deep Strike and Reserves to the very letter and in their entirety.

However, the last paragraph on BRB p.7 says that the Codex takes priority.

Now apply that line of thinking to the entirety of the DWA RAW. "Units composed entirely of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour may choose to make a Deathwing Assault." The wording of the FAQ does not state that only 50% of the army can use the DWA special rule And taking the entirety of the ruleset into account and how the DWA rule is worded, the FAQ places no such limit. If it did, then there would arise a case where "Units composed entirely of models that have both this special rule and Terminator armour" may NOT choose to make a Deathwing Assault which would violate the rule in the Codex which, per the BRB, take priority.

helotaxi wrote:
Both Deep Strike and Reserves tell you to roll for reserves. DWA specifically says you do not.

Right, but the DWA rule says specifically that instead of rolling for reserves they come on automatically.

Further proof that they are, in fact, in reserve.

Yes, the codex takes priority - when there is a direct conflict

So, as you point out, DWA changes the rule for reserves so you dont roll.

Now find the explicit rule stating that ALL units with DWA may be put in reserves, over the 50% allowance, and you would have a point.

Oddly enough those rules dont exist, so you dont get to break the reserve rules jsut because you want to.

Again, your interpretation means that even though I don't HAVE to put them ALL in reserves, I don't even have the choice, potentially, which the Codex clearly say that I do.

The fact that the rules explicitly states that I get to choose, means some, all or none can make a DWA.

If the DWA rule were written:

"Units placed in reserve with both this rule and Terminator armour may choose to make a Deathwing Assault. To make a Deathwing Assault, the owning player chooses whether it will occur in turn 1 or 2 before armies are deployed. These units will automatically arrive in that turn without the need to roll for reserves."

your interpretation would be 100% correct and the only valid reading. In that instance, you chose specifically to have them placed in reserve BEFORE the DWA rule was invoked and the 50% rule would be entirely in effect. In the case of the RAW, the rule places them in reserve (I'm not arguing that they are not "in reserve") and while I chose to use the rule, I did not chose to place them in reserve since I was not deploying my army at the time the rule was invoked. The FAQ merely states that those units placed in reserve by the DWA count against the 50% when it comes time to deliberately place units in reserve when deploying the army. You can't argue that the DWA rule is invoked when the army is deployed because that isn't what the rule states. Your interpretation requires a general rule to override a specific rule and requires that you infer that the general rule states or means something that it does not.

So if the DWA rule gives your permission to be placed in reserve and they count towards the 50% limit and reality is the scope of this debate... why are we arguing this when the faq is clear?

So, despite you taking a deployment action - placing units into reserve - you do not believe you are deploying?
Interesting, but wrong.

Again: find explicit permission to place ALL units into reserve.

You are getting codex overriding rulebook wrong, as you are missing that the rule for DWA allows you to choose, but does not say they may ALWAYS start in DWA. THere is a crucial, obvious difference between the two.

The FAQ is shockingly clear, the gymnastics being performed to somehow claim that deployment isnt really deployment, or that putting something into reserves isnt really reserves, is shocking.

Question re the DWA special rule/ability : Where in this ability does it say it places the units given this special ability into reserves prior to deployment?

From what I can read you give them the ability (including which turn you WANT them to DS onto thte board), THEN you deploy your forces (and/or reserve).

Nothing in the ability that I can see overrides the BRB deployment/reserve restrictions. Simply having the ability (DWA) does not give permission to override as does it mean or state that you MUST use said ability on units that have been given it.

*Edit : I neither play DA nor have I ever played against DA. This is strictly a RAW interpretation on my part after having read the newest DA codex several times.

helotaxi wrote:
Both Deep Strike and Reserves tell you to roll for reserves. DWA specifically says you do not. To follow your logic, explicitly, the DWA rule doesn't exist since we have to follow the BRB for both Deep Strike and Reserves to the very letter and in their entirety.

There are a variety of things that start the game in Reserve and do not roll to come into play; for example, GK's Mordrak and SM Drop Pods come in automatically on T1. This is not breaking the reserve rules in any way, nor does it mean that Mordrak or Drop Pods are not in reserve--they are, and Mordrak (not the DPs) counts toward the 50% reserve limit.

If you aren't deployed and you are arriving via deep strike, reserves is the only place you can be. Since the FAQ states DWA units count towards reserves, you may only reserve half rounded up.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
If you aren't deployed and you are arriving via deep strike, reserves is the only place you can be. Since the FAQ states DWA units count towards reserves, you may only reserve half rounded up.

This operates under a few assumptions.
1) That a rule exists that says you can only have 50% of your force in reserve at any time, by any method. (pg ref?)
2) That a rule exists that anytime anything is USING the Reserves rule, is subject to all of the rules listed under the Reserves rule. (pg ref?)
3) That a rule exists that anything that counts toward the limit, but also be affected by the limit. (pg ref?)
4) That a rule exists that says that Reserves is the only place you can be if you're not on the table. (pg. ref?)
5) That the 50% permission allowing units to be placed in Reserve applies to anything outside of deploying forces. (pg. ref?)

Prior to C: DA, there was no NEED to view the interpretation that 'anything that counts toward the limit, is subject to the limit', because nothing existed that challenged it. Since nothing challenged it, it's been safe to assume that all things that count toward the limit are therefore restricted to 50% having permission to be placed in reserve. There was no need to keep the condition of 'When deploying forces'. If you actually read the rule, even flyers do not have permission to put more than 50% of your forces in Reserve. They simply do not count toward which units CAN be placed in reserve, when deploying forces. The outcome of this is that you CAN in fact have more than 50% of your force in reserve. It is not a definition of what % is allowed to be in reserve and no where is it stated.

Is it possible to have more than 50% of your forces in reserve and still count toward which units can be placed there 'when deploying forces'? The answer is Yes, but there are conditions (obviously). Nothing in the entire Reserves section restricts this, or makes any claim that 'all units that count toward the limit are affected by the limit'. Prior to C: DA, there wasn't a need or a situation that ever challenged it, so it wasn't even addressed until C: DA released.

So on to the DWA rule:

DWA CLEARLY states that DW Terminator units are allowed to use DWA. This happens immediately AFTER Determine Warlord Traits. It is EXPLICIT about being an option that is outside of 'Deploying forces'. DWA is also clearly absent of the terms 'when deploying', and 'using the Reserves rules'. This is HOW DWA'ing units end up in reserve. There is no mention of being deployed there, they are simply there. By comparison, other Terminator units from other Codex are explicit about using the Reserves rule to be placed in reserves. Since this happens 'when deploying forces', there exists a conflict between the '50% permission' and 'may always choose to'. Since a conflict DOES exist for other Codex Terminators, an EXPLICIT permission must be given, which it has. C: DA Terminators wishing to use DWA to enter play have no conflict with the 50% permission, because it happens at at time that is not during 'when deploying forces'. C: DA Terminators wishing to enter play using Deep Strike and NOT use DWA, ARE subject to the 50% permission, because like every other non-exempt unit, they are actually deployed there, when the unit is being deployed.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'Show me the rule where it says EXPLICITLY where units using DWA are allowed to break the 50% rule, and we'll believe you?'

It simply does not exist. Why? Because there exists no rule for it to conflict with in the first place. The FAQ/Errata didn't change any of this. Nothing has changed the wording or the timing of WHEN a player has the option to implement DWA, nor has any wording changed to restrict which units can/cannot use DWA.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'You said RESTRICT, this is a permissive rule set, so units need permission to do something!!'

This is absolutely correct. They need permission to do something in the first place. DWA gives them all the permission they need. DW Terminators can choose to enter play using DWA. Any, all, some, none. It's all there, they simply have the option or not.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'So you've said, but where is the explicit permission to break the 50% rule?'

WHEN a rule conflicts with an existing rule, which is usually when a Codex attempts to do something that is outside the limits covered by the BRB, then yes EXPLICIT permission must be given by the offending rule. However, since there exists no conflict between DWA allowing all of it's Terminator units, and a NON-EXISTENT rule that says you can only have 50% of your force in reserve if they count toward the limit, there is no conflict, so no permission is needed.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'Then you are ignoring the FAQ that clearly states that units using DWA count toward the limit, and can't go above 50%'

Am I? Let me look again. Nope, just says they count toward the limit, no mention is made of any restriction of them being limited to 50% of units using DWA. Let me read the Errata. Nope, nothing there changed DWA to state any of the following:
-- 'Up to 50% of units comprised entirely of models with this rule may choose to enter play via DWA' (This would be an exception to itself stating that they are subject to the 50% rule, when it occurs outside of 'when deploying forces')
-- 'When deploying units comprised entirely of models with this rule, they may choose to enter play via DWA' (This would change it from 'Warlord Traits' to 'when deploying forces, which would place it under the Reserves rule, and all applicable restrictions/permissions)
-- 'Units comprised entirely of models with this rule, may choose to enter play via DWA subject to the normal rules for Reserves' (This would put it in line with the existing Codex Terminators, and like above, would mean the Reserves rule would apply in it's entirety.

SINCE none of this has changed, DWA maintains the permission it has handled since C: DA has been released, and it has all the permissions it needs to allow Any/All DW Terminators to make use of DWA, and addresses any relevant conflicts.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'So what was the point of the FAQ then?'

C: DA did in fact create a conflict that wasn't covered by the BRB, and C: DA failed to address it. This was a sorely needed FAQ, because there were arguments about whether or not you could place OTHER units in Reserve when deploying forces. DWA units were clearly not flyers nor were they forced to Deep Strike, so they didn't meet the exemptions provided by the BRB. GW needed to make a decision, and they did. So WHEN we get to the 'Deploy Forces' step and check to see which units count toward the limit, we are instructed to include DWA Terminators in that count. We still have not been instructed to restrict, remove, or prevent any number of units using DWA from being there.

Randomforumtrolldude replies:
'Well your interpretation of 'deploy forces' is wrong then, since this all of this happens during the Deployment phase, including 'Determine Warlord Traits'

Since the Reserves rule clearly says 'when deploying forces' and not 'during deployment', they are both a valid interpretation of how and when the Reserves rule is to be applied. Checking the BRB FAQ. Nope, nothing has changed this either. It simply falls under the HIWPI vs HYWPI. Until an errata/faq changes the Reserves rule or the DWA rule, denying a DA player the ability to DWA his entire composition of Terminators isn't founded on anything. And when you accuse someone of breaking a law that doesn't exist, it then becomes a 'Witch Hunt'.

If DWA units count towards the maximum reserved units, and you reserve 100% of an all DW army, you have broken a rule.

You're either pulling the troll of the year or the most obtuse person I've ever seen.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Units using DWA are kept in reserve as they must DS in. Things that DS in have to be in reserve.

So you do not have a Page and Graph to the contrary, Akar?

Akar, thank you for your concession.

You can not reserve 100% of your forces, as this breaks a rule without any specific exception to the contrary. As we know, you can only break rules with a specific exception. (E.G. when a model with only 1 wound suffers an unsaved wound it should be removed as a casualty, but the rules for Feel No Pain state specifically that you are allowed a roll, and if the roll succeeds then the model is not removed).

As above. I think there has been enough feeding done for one thread.

You have a rule stating you may only reserve half your forces. Absent a specific permission other than that, you cannot break that rule.

its one of the more mind numbingly obvious rules.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
If DWA units count towards the maximum reserved units, and you reserve 100% of an all DW army, you have broken a rule.

There exists no rule, on any page that says that 100% of units can't be in reserve.

There is a rule that says that up to 50% of forces CAN be placed in reserve, WHEN DEPLOYING forces. If we were deploying all the Terminator units in reserve, then we would be breaking a rule. DWA doesn't deploy. It's DWA.

If you aren't putting DWA into reserves and
1) it automatically comes out of reserves because you don't have to roll for it.
2) is subject to the 50% reserves restriction.
3) Uses deep strike to come onto the board.

How is it not reserves and subject to all of those restrictions?