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Relapse wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Not egging this but....is UK Parliament getting ready to start a push for new laws?

They won't do gak, if anything, there will be an enquiry into why the police shot the bastards and if they couldn't have just been enticed into the van with a cup of tea, a leaflet on tolerance and a halal biscuit.

I read something today, As a country we need to ask the question; How did our society fail the two men who did this?, and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. We failed them? We gave them a country with free and excellent education, state healthcare and welfare benefits, a vast network of charities, support groups and a free and open society to be whatever they wanted to be and yet some people think we should shoulder blame for this young man's terrible, savage and wicked murder because we didn't provide... something else, something more that these two fething monsters needed to not take knives and instruments of butchery to a young man prone on the street?

We failed them?


They Failed Us.

Marry me, I love you and the way you think.

From what I've read of your posting history and threads started, I'm not sure that you do, I quite like Obama and I know you hate him (I do think he should toughen up and stop trying to extend the olive branch and just govern for his remaining years) because I absolutely believe in welfare, universal state healthcare, education, social services and support for those in society who need it, I absolutely believe that no man is an island and everyone should work towards a productive, tolerant and liberal society. I believe in showing incredible tolerance and willingness to share and embrace ideas and cultures, as long as they share our own notion of open, tolerance and accepting ethos, we invite all to the table who want to work together.

However, I will make you 'hawk' guys on the right hide in fear when I do get around to showing my authoritarian side, the side that knows we must, if we are to have all the things I love about modern western democracy, take draconian steps to protect it. We must build a fortress about our happy garden, a fortress of powerful military, merciless intelligence and covert operation and the absolute will to take anyone who threatens the multicultural, tolerant and welcoming society out by the back door and peel them like an orange.

Welcome to the table, welcome to multicultural Britain, welcome to multicultural America, welcome to our house and to the party, eat your fill, share all that we have, but shoulder your share of the work and do not, when we afford your beliefs respect, trample upon ours and threaten us, if you do, you will be shown the door, and if you do us harm, you will be shown more than you ever wished to see, we will suspend our normal tolerance and exceed you in savagery, don't wake the dragon.

Jesus Christ, the bomb scare by mine was confirmed to be an elaborate hoax, who the would think that would be funny, some seriously sick people in this world.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Jesus Christ, the bomb scare by mine was confirmed to be an elaborate hoax, who the would think that would be funny, some seriously sick people in this world.

Unfortunately there are far too many people like that in the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10080737/French-soldier-stabbed-in-Paris.html

French soldier has been repeatedly been stabbed in the neck by someone described by police as 'bearded, of North African origin and wearing a light coloured jihab'.

:( Justice shall punish the wicked in time.

From what I've read of your posting history and threads started, I'm not sure that you do, I quite like Obama and I know you hate him (I do think he should toughen up and stop trying to extend the olive branch and just govern for his remaining years) because I absolutely believe in welfare, universal state healthcare, education, social services and support for those in society who need it, I absolutely believe that no man is an island and everyone should work towards a productive, tolerant and liberal society. I believe in showing incredible tolerance and willingness to share and embrace ideas and cultures, as long as they share our own notion of open, tolerance and accepting ethos, we invite all to the table who want to work together.

However, I will make you 'hawk' guys on the right hide in fear when I do get around to showing my authoritarian side, the side that knows we must, if we are to have all the things I love about modern western democracy, take draconian steps to protect it. We must build a fortress about our happy garden, a fortress of powerful military, merciless intelligence and covert operation and the absolute will to take anyone who threatens the multicultural, tolerant and welcoming society out by the back door and peel them like an orange.

Welcome to the table, welcome to multicultural Britain, welcome to multicultural America, welcome to our house and to the party, eat your fill, share all that we have, but shoulder your share of the work and do not, when we afford your beliefs respect, trample upon ours and threaten us, if you do, you will be shown the door, and if you do us harm, you will be shown more than you ever wished to see, we will suspend our normal tolerance and exceed you in savagery, don't wake the dragon.

When you run for political office MGS let me know...I vote fer ya

We really should send a thank you note over to the UK for giving us Stompa...

I think that it was unhelpful that so much was made of the fact that it was a religous attack, surely "bad guys killed a good guy, now the bad guys are dead" would have been more helpful than "foreign bad guys who aren't christian killed a English good guy, so we shot them".

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I think that it was unhelpful that so much was made of the fact that it was a religous attack, surely "bad guys killed a good guy, now the bad guys are dead" would have been more helpful than "foreign bad guys who aren't christian killed a English good guy, so we shot them".

I very strongly disagree. (also, both the 'bad guys' are still alive).

And it was a religious attack, a man was hit with a car (so he wouldn't fight back) and then butchered in the street like an animal, wait, no, that's not right because I've butchered animals before and I ensured they died swiftly and with as little pain as possible before I cut them up, so he wasn't even afforded that, he was hacked apart whist still alive and injured on the floor, as the two 'brave' warriors of Islam called on bystanders to film it.

It was done for a reason, it was done to an agenda, whatever you might personally dislike about the light it throws on islam, it was done in islam's name, it was done as a 'revenge'.

It can be expected that when such an attack takes place, the population wishes to understand why on earth it has, what motives were responsible and who the people who carried it out were, to understand if they are at a greater risk, it turns out they are.

Moderate islamics may well dislike it, but these two were converted to that faith and then warped into something abhuman and wicked by people who claim to act in that faith's name. Covering over these facts is not reporting the news.

I believe we should honor the Quran and the belief system of these two men in applying their punishment, The law of Qisas applies here, they should as murderers (because attacking a prone and injured man, two on one, and cutting his head nigh off and then slicing his body apart is not 'fighting the enemy', it's very clearly murder) be met with the equality of punishment to the crime and so they too should be hit with a car and then carved up alive. Give them to the fusiliers, I'm quite sure there would be no end of volunteers for this 'religiously sensitive' application of Sharia.

From what I've read of your posting history and threads started, I'm not sure that you do, I quite like Obama and I know you hate him (I do think he should toughen up and stop trying to extend the olive branch and just govern for his remaining years) because I absolutely believe in welfare, universal state healthcare, education, social services and support for those in society who need it, I absolutely believe that no man is an island and everyone should work towards a productive, tolerant and liberal society. I believe in showing incredible tolerance and willingness to share and embrace ideas and cultures, as long as they share our own notion of open, tolerance and accepting ethos, we invite all to the table who want to work together.

However, I will make you 'hawk' guys on the right hide in fear when I do get around to showing my authoritarian side, the side that knows we must, if we are to have all the things I love about modern western democracy, take draconian steps to protect it. We must build a fortress about our happy garden, a fortress of powerful military, merciless intelligence and covert operation and the absolute will to take anyone who threatens the multicultural, tolerant and welcoming society out by the back door and peel them like an orange.

Welcome to the table, welcome to multicultural Britain, welcome to multicultural America, welcome to our house and to the party, eat your fill, share all that we have, but shoulder your share of the work and do not, when we afford your beliefs respect, trample upon ours and threaten us, if you do, you will be shown the door, and if you do us harm, you will be shown more than you ever wished to see, we will suspend our normal tolerance and exceed you in savagery, don't wake the dragon.

100% this...Live by our Laws and we will live in Peace, respect our system of representative Government and respect and tolerate those with different views to you, but do not ever seek to impose your own beliefs on others or coerce them through threats, violence or blackmail.

I believe in the Free speech but it needs limits (Such as the Paternalistic Justification of Limiting Speech) - This is a good balanced article from Stanford Encylopedia of Philosophy.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/#PatJusForLimSpe

What is your own interpretation of Free Speech? Free to Offend? Free to say the immoral, the unjustifiable? How does this work with Liable and Defamation of Character? It's very easy to say "I believe in Free Speech" but I do not know one country that actually has it.....

Hate speech should not be defended as Free Speech. Inciting Racial Hatred is an Offence in the UK and quite right too.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I think that it was unhelpful that so much was made of the fact that it was a religous attack, surely "bad guys killed a good guy, now the bad guys are dead" would have been more helpful than "foreign bad guys who aren't christian killed a English good guy, so we shot them".

I very strongly disagree. (also, both the 'bad guys' are still alive).

This attack was made for reactions like the one you just gave, to get angry, to inspire violence, right now reactions = oxygen and this atrocity is fire, if you stop the oxygen you stop the fire, so stop giving angry reactions and the flame WILL die out, protect yourself absolutly ,decry others and now your in the wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although i do disagree, in situations like this "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS".

This attack was made for reactions like the one you just gave, to get angry, to inspire violence, right now reactions = oxygen and this atrocity is fire, if you stop the oxygen you stop the fire, so stop giving angry reactions and the flame WILL die out, protect yourself absolutly ,decry others and now your in the wrong.

Extremist Islam is not dying out, we could ignore this, but that is precisely what we did in the 1980's and 1990's and then 3000 people needlessly died on September Day in 2001. Ignoring Extremist Islam doesn't work, they just commit greater and greater atrocities to get attention.

Ignoring the problem won't help, defying the Terrorists by refusing to be cowed is the right way, but I do not advocate our Military, Intelligence Services, Law enforcement or Politicians to ignore this.

This is a blatant challenge to our way of life. We have ignored this elephant in the room for far too long, certainly in the UK, less so in the US where they have engaged with the threat.

We need to get the Islamic Community to rally round the rule of law, respect and tolerance and encourage them to report to us anyone who is planning, plotting or seeking to create an Ethnic War or Conflict. Fundamentally it's for their own protection, we do not want a "Kristallnacht" and the UK Law enforcement will stop the EDL and BNP etc, but we need more "Buy-in" from British Muslims to stand firm with us to stop this.

The other big issue, is that we need to sort out the Israeli / Palestine situation....But that's another story althogether.

You've already got buy-in from moderate British muslims.

Haw do you get buy-in from the extremists, and from the extremist non-muslim British (EDL, etc.)?

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I think that it was unhelpful that so much was made of the fact that it was a religous attack, surely "bad guys killed a good guy, now the bad guys are dead" would have been more helpful than "foreign bad guys who aren't christian killed a English good guy, so we shot them".

I very strongly disagree. (also, both the 'bad guys' are still alive).

This attack was made for reactions like the one you just gave, to get angry, to inspire violence, right now reactions = oxygen and this atrocity is fire, if you stop the oxygen you stop the fire, so stop giving angry reactions and the flame WILL die out, protect yourself absolutly ,decry others and now your in the wrong.
Although i do disagree, in situations like this "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS".

I'm afraid I've run out of cheeks to turn with these people. Something about the way they keep butchering people on the streets of Boston, London etc has perhaps swayed me in this. Something about the tepid and half-hearted five minute denouncements from the general muslim population before we are again witness to burning poppies and calls for the UK to be under sharia law and serving Islam or be destroyed.

I no longer believe our societies and cultures can integrate. Not as they exist now, not as Islam continues down the path towards the extinction of education, art, free thinking and tolerance, not as it suppresses and honor kills and rapes and mutilates it's womenfolk for 'witchcraft' or 'learning to read' or 'answering back'.

I wonder what it was that took the warrior poet of Saladin's time, who embraced learning and philosophy and understood they could share the world, and replaced them, over time, with a culture of aggressive assimilation or extinction policy. During the crusades, the west was the barbarian, howling at the gates, obsessed with their own religion and death to the disbelievers, invading the civilized lands from their medieval hell holes... What a difference a millennium makes...

MGS for the rightful king of the Seven Kingdoms!

 mwnciboo wrote:
This has been being batted around for a good 18 months now. A lot of reporters are after his financal information, they'll eventually get it. But I have no reason to dis-believe the 4 different news outlets that investigated this.

Well, the only paper claiming it is The Sun, and other than that it's just other tabloids repeating what The Sun said.

Not saying it isn't true, just saying that there isn't a lot at this stage saying it is true. Because, you know, we are talking about the The Sun here. They're dodge even by the standards of tabloids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mwnciboo wrote:
I earn a very Good Wage, I loose 45% of it in Direct Taxation

No, you don't. You pay 45% on income earned over and above 150,000, before that you were paying 40% on income over an above 32,011 (and less for income below that). The total amount of income tax paid, no matter how high your income, can never reach 45%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Palindrome wrote:
Just because some people abuse it doesn't mean that everyone does.

Absolutely. I suspect a lot of the problem is that people have no real understanding of what poverty used to be. Looking at kids in workhouses and the like from 100 years ago, and I don't think anyone is going to question the massive benefits of the welfare system.

It's a lot like vaccines in that regard, because people are no longer touched by polio directly in their minds they've stopped thinking it was ever a real thing that ruined lives, and then lurched to the conclusion that they can dismantle it without serious consequences.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Not egging this but....is UK Parliament getting ready to start a push for new laws?

They won't do gak, if anything, there will be an enquiry into why the police shot the bastards and if they couldn't have just been enticed into the van with a cup of tea, a leaflet on tolerance and a halal biscuit.

I read something today, As a country we need to ask the question; How did our society fail the two men who did this?, and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. We failed them? We gave them a country with free and excellent education, state healthcare and welfare benefits, a vast network of charities, support groups and a free and open society to be whatever they wanted to be and yet some people think we should shoulder blame for this young man's terrible, savage and wicked murder because we didn't provide... something else, something more that these two fething monsters needed to not take knives and instruments of butchery to a young man prone on the street?

We failed them?


They Failed Us.

Marry me, I love you and the way you think.

From what I've read of your posting history and threads started, I'm not sure that you do, I quite like Obama and I know you hate him (I do think he should toughen up and stop trying to extend the olive branch and just govern for his remaining years) because I absolutely believe in welfare, universal state healthcare, education, social services and support for those in society who need it, I absolutely believe that no man is an island and everyone should work towards a productive, tolerant and liberal society. I believe in showing incredible tolerance and willingness to share and embrace ideas and cultures, as long as they share our own notion of open, tolerance and accepting ethos, we invite all to the table who want to work together.

However, I will make you 'hawk' guys on the right hide in fear when I do get around to showing my authoritarian side, the side that knows we must, if we are to have all the things I love about modern western democracy, take draconian steps to protect it. We must build a fortress about our happy garden, a fortress of powerful military, merciless intelligence and covert operation and the absolute will to take anyone who threatens the multicultural, tolerant and welcoming society out by the back door and peel them like an orange.

Welcome to the table, welcome to multicultural Britain, welcome to multicultural America, welcome to our house and to the party, eat your fill, share all that we have, but shoulder your share of the work and do not, when we afford your beliefs respect, trample upon ours and threaten us, if you do, you will be shown the door, and if you do us harm, you will be shown more than you ever wished to see, we will suspend our normal tolerance and exceed you in savagery, don't wake the dragon.

Every couple has some differences at first, dearee!

In all truth, though there is a lot you say here that I do agree with. Besides, you like Brian Blessed.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

It was done for a reason, it was done to an agenda, whatever you might personally dislike about the light it throws on islam, it was done in islam's name, it was done as a 'revenge'.

So, in theory, if I went into the streets tomorrow and started shooting people while yelling "Deus Vult!" and ranting about how this was God's punishment for the wickedness of humankind it'd mean that all Christians are scumbags like me, because I did it in the name of Christianity?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

It was done for a reason, it was done to an agenda, whatever you might personally dislike about the light it throws on islam, it was done in islam's name, it was done as a 'revenge'.

So, in theory, if I went into the streets tomorrow and started shooting people while yelling "Deus Vult!" and ranting about how this was God's punishment for the wickedness of humankind it'd mean that all Christians are scumbags like me, because I did it in the name of Christianity?

Not at all.

If you'd done that after being recruited to Christianity and indoctrinated and trained by a Christian religious leader to believe that this was your god's will, against a backdrop of aggressive marches of Christians through the streets calling for the downfall of the parent society, calling for violent uprising, a backdrop of other Christian terror attacks across the nation, continent and other democratic nations, if Christians were planting bombs in cities and flying planes into skyscrapers and suppressing, raping, mutilating and murdering their own female population, Then I might be having the same problem with Christianity (not all Christians, but Christianity).

I don't have an issue with the majority of muslims, those I know are generally easy going folks who work, love their families and get on with life, I think they are deluded and I hope that successive generations of muslims living in western democracies will abandon the, frankly disgusting, misogyny and violent intolerance their religion currently promotes and I have a serious issue with those who do march, who do burn poppies, who do stand at the lectern and preach the murder of homosexuals and violent uprising against anyone who does not bend the knee to their eternally pissed off and offended god. It's a telling thing that when I think of the muslims who I get on with and like, they are those with the least adherence to their religion. Ergo, I like muslims, I don't like Islam and I don't like fanaticism/fascism.

I know that you want to label me as a bigot for hating 'a whole group of people', but what I actually hate is violent homophobia, domestic abuse and suppression of education and liberal freedoms, and if you still think I'm a bigot for that, well, then I am happy to meet your somewhat warped definition.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

It was done for a reason, it was done to an agenda, whatever you might personally dislike about the light it throws on islam, it was done in islam's name, it was done as a 'revenge'.

So, in theory, if I went into the streets tomorrow and started shooting people while yelling "Deus Vult!" and ranting about how this was God's punishment for the wickedness of humankind it'd mean that all Christians are scumbags like me, because I did it in the name of Christianity?

Not at all.

If you'd done that after being recruited to Christianity and indoctrinated and trained by a Christian religious leader to believe that this was your god's will, against a backdrop of aggressive marches of Christians through the streets calling for the downfall of the parent society, calling for violent uprising, a backdrop of other Christian terror attacks across the nation, continent and other democratic nations, if Christians were planting bombs in cities and flying planes into skyscrapers and suppressing, raping, mutilating and murdering their own female population, Then I might be having the same problem with Christianity (not all Christians, but Christianity).

I don't have an issue with the majority of muslims, those I know are generally easy going folks who work, love their families and get on with life, I think they are deluded and I hope that successive generations of muslims living in western democracies will abandon the, frankly disgusting, misogyny and violent intolerance their religion currently promotes and I have a serious issue with those who do march, who do burn poppies, who do stand at the lectern and preach the murder of homosexuals and violent uprising against anyone who does not bend the knee to their eternally pissed off and offended god. It's a telling thing that when I think of the muslims who I get on with and like, they are those with the least adherence to their religion. Ergo, I like muslims, I don't like Islam and I don't like fanaticism/fascism.

I know that you want to label me as a bigot for hating 'a whole group of people', but what I actually hate is violent homophobia, domestic abuse and suppression of education and liberal freedoms, and if you still think I'm a bigot for that, well, then I am happy to meet your somewhat warped definition.

I don't think you're a bigot, I think you have a short-sighted and slightly warped opinion of Islam. Malta only legalised divorces last year. Christian groups in both Europe and the US are fighting tooth and nail against the right to abortions and the right of homosexuals to marry.

The point I'm trying to make is, the society of many middle-eastern nations is where we were around 130 years ago. We were just as, for lack of a better word, deluded as many of those you mention in your post (and for what it's worth, I think they're massive tossers too), but we made a better society. Thus, we can draw the conclusion that it's not Islam, but rather politics and tradition, that is the problem. Catholicism is still struggling with some stuff, and the situation in Northern Ireland isn't exactly awesome (not blaming Catholics exclusively for that, just usin it as an example).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mwnciboo wrote:
I earn a very Good Wage, I loose 45% of it in Direct Taxation

No, you don't. You pay 45% on income earned over and above 150,000, before that you were paying 40% on income over an above 32,011 (and less for income below that). The total amount of income tax paid, no matter how high your income, can never reach 45%.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

You are right I should have caveated it with the limits, as you aggregate it over the other Tax bands...very interesting article here today...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/8571113/Britain-has-highest-tax-rates-for-high-and-low-earners.html

Anyway back on topic...

Britain needs more Human Intelligence sources, this snoopers charter is a load of old nonsense ELINT is fine but it has limits. We really need to get into and infiltrate these Radical Extremist Groups to gain intelligence on their operations.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I don't think you're a bigot, I think you have a short-sighted and slightly warped opinion of Islam. Malta only legalised divorces last year. Christian groups in both Europe and the US are fighting tooth and nail against the right to abortions and the right of homosexuals to marry.

The point I'm trying to make is, the society of many middle-eastern nations is where we were around 130 years ago. We were just as, for lack of a better word, deluded as many of those you mention in your post (and for what it's worth, I think they're massive tossers too), but we made a better society. Thus, we can draw the conclusion that it's not Islam, but rather politics and tradition, that is the problem. Catholicism is still struggling with some stuff, and the situation in Northern Ireland isn't exactly awesome (not blaming Catholics exclusively for that, just usin it as an example).

130 years ago, in either the UK or the US, it was not acceptable to do this:

Murder little girls for going to school.

Cut off the nose and ears of a girl for trying to escape her forced marriage and leave her in the woods to die.

Burying a woman to her neck and stoning her face until she is dead, for the crime of witchcraft.

Hunting down and murdering your daughter for the crime of loving a nonbeliever, oh, after you've let her uncles and cousins rape and beat her first, so she learns her lesson.

Force your own 12 year old daughter to live in a kennel in the back yard because she had been gang raped by the local taliban and therefore brought you shame because she was no longer a virgin, beat her every single day because you are irritated by this and because she has lost all value.

Frankly, if you want a real comparison to the nations ruled directed by islamic sharia, you need to go back to the dark ages in western Europe. Hundreds of years, if not a thousand, to find an equal to this sort of repulsive abuse of human rights and inhumanity.

Abortion issues, gay marriage issues? You'll need to grasp at a lot of straws to find anything like the barbarity, wickedness and oppression I can find in any and all islamic nations with a couple of minutes on google. I understand it's upsetting, I as a liberal, as someone who always wants people to be happy and free to believe what they want and live as they want, fought against this conclusion for years, it was a long and arduous journey for me to reach this point, to finally acknowledge that this belief system is, as it currently exists, a malevolent one and a threat to everyone else's freedoms, culture, education and happiness.

The fundamentalism that has swept through this religion, in most everywhere it exists, is the death of liberty, the death of ideas and the death of the individual. Go look at the children in Pakistan nodding their heads as they are force fed the quran and repeat it mindlessly as zombies, in a language they don't even speak, in the religious schools that have sprouted like weeds everywhere there. Go look at the site where the Buddhas of Bamiyan stood for nearly 2 thousand years until they were dynamited, go listen to the new Egyptian brotherhood of Islam calling for the destruction of the sphinx and any statues or symbols of anything that is not their monochrome religion's version of the world. The book burnings, the calling for and in some cases, the murder of artists, film makers, authors and anyone else who speaks out in criticism.

Why should I afford absolute tolerance to a religion and mindset that holds no tolerance for me, or my way of life? That would put to death friends of mine for their sexuality and force others to abandon their freedoms and become second class citizens?

Why am I viewed poorly by my peers in the liberal left for criticizing this fascism, when I'd be lauded for criticizing the fascism of a skin headed white organization? For me this raises the question of whether they afford such vast leeway and tolerance to something like this because their own experiences of islam are through foreign or 'brown' people and that therefore they themselves are guilty of a form of positive discrimination/racial stereotyping.

If this were a white, European nation, murdering people who spoke out against it, who suppressed it's womenfolk to only be breeding machines and servants, who killed homosexuals and hated the jewish as their blood enemies, who burned books and crushed free thinking, who... wait a minute... that does sound familiar somehow.

When Islam stops suppressing their female population, stops wanting to assimilate or destroy all that is not islam, when it basically goes through it's own version of the enlightenment and replaces the human bomb with reasoned debate, they can come back to the table, until then, I see no reason to continuing to try to integrate a religion that won't do just that.

Completely agree with you Stompa on this, what I find most frustrating is if anyone airs this view in public you're called a ignorant bigot, but this quote somes up my view on the subject:

tolerance of intolerance is cowardice - Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Fresh bit of news, this is a new low, whoever the perpertators.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331598/War-memorial-defaced-EDL-prepare-march-Downing-Street-tensions-rise-country.html

 mwnciboo wrote:

Britain needs more Human Intelligence sources, this snoopers charter is a load of old nonsense ELINT is fine but it has limits. We really need to get into and infiltrate these Radical Extremist Groups to gain intelligence on their operations.

I agree wholeheartedly that human intelligence is far superior to electronic, but at the same time, the way that MI5 gathers human intelligence sources should be more, well, intelligent. One of the suspects in this case was approached numerous times to "help" MI5, to the point where he described it as harassment.There have been other similar heavy handed approaches to members of the Muslim community documented. It doesn't foster a good relationship between the Security services and the Muslim community to act in such a way, and if any conflict required the winning of hearts and minds, it is this conflict of ideologies. That's not to say we should be lovely and nice to terrorists, but we should be very worried about how our actions can be the catalyst for the radicalisation of currently moderate Muslims.

I would also add that if we wish to rid the world of terrorism then it should be treated as piracy was, universal jurisdiction should be brought against it. However much like piracy the primary reason that will not happen is that terrorism is often used to further a states cause. As privateers were used as a proxy navy, terrorists have often been used as a proxy army. The problems that Britain and America have with Islamic extremism have a lot to do with Islamic fundamentalists being used to fight proxy wars in Afghanistan against the Soviets and in Bosnia.

To defend Islam and its intollerant regime is rather warped imo.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
To defend Islam and its intollerant regime is rather warped imo.

No, to think that Islam is an intolerant regime is what is warped. Islam in itself is not.

 dæl wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
To defend Islam and its intollerant regime is rather warped imo.

No, to think that Islam is an intolerant regime is what is warped. Islam in itself is not.

Interesting, because when I think of more tolerant examples of islam, I can't help but think they are more tolerant because they are less islamic, less hardline, less absolute in their adherence, do you disagree?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 dæl wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
To defend Islam and its intollerant regime is rather warped imo.

No, to think that Islam is an intolerant regime is what is warped. Islam in itself is not.

Interesting, because when I think of more tolerant examples of islam, I can't help but think they are more tolerant because they are less islamic, less hardline, less absolute in their adherence, do you disagree?

I agree they are less hardline, and less absolute, but the term less Islamic I have slight issues with. Do you think that the more tolerant branches of Christianity are less Christian than the hardliners?

 dæl wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
To defend Islam and its intollerant regime is rather warped imo.

No, to think that Islam is an intolerant regime is what is warped. Islam in itself is not.

Read this report of over 38,000 Muslims. These are all countries that have a large Islamic population. The countries that have a much stronger belief in Islam are noted for their increased intolerance of: homosexuality, womens rights and civil liberties. The survey doesn't include Saudi Arabia or Iran but I'm not going to need to do much deduction to guess their views. http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf







Then this is on Britain and homosexuality: 0% tolerance of homosexuality within the survey.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality?CMP=twt_gu
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/24/muslim-patrol-gang-arrests-homophobic-video

This is very disturbing to me.

 uk_crow wrote:
Completely agree with you Stompa on this, what I find most frustrating is if anyone airs this view in public you're called a ignorant bigot,
Fresh bit of news, this is a new low, whoever the perpertators.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331598/War-memorial-defaced-EDL-prepare-march-Downing-Street-tensions-rise-country.html

It's funny how certain people are trying to entice violence against the Muslim community, then this pops up and people start blaming Muslims just because the word 'Islam' was written in big large letters on two memorials... It's as if the EDL/other idiotic and hateful group got what they wanted...

I was expecting people to a bit brighter than that, but I guess that my hopes are too high.

Note: I do not condone the desecration of war memorials because I recognise the fact that they mean a lot to many people, nor do I condone the savage attack against the soldier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 uk_crow wrote:

This is very disturbing to me.

But then people going into places with knives and fire bombs with intent to harm innocent people seemingly doesn't? How strange.

 Azenine wrote:

 uk_crow wrote:
Completely agree with you Stompa on this, what I find most frustrating is if anyone airs this view in public you're called a ignorant bigot,
Fresh bit of news, this is a new low, whoever the perpertators.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331598/War-memorial-defaced-EDL-prepare-march-Downing-Street-tensions-rise-country.html

It's funny how certain people are trying to entice violence against the Muslim community, then this pops up and people start blaming Muslims just because the word 'Islam' was written in big large letters on two memorials... It's as if the EDL/other idiotic and hateful group got what they wanted...

I was expecting people to a bit brighter than that, but I guess that my hopes are too high.

Note: I do not condone the desecration of war memorials because I recognise the fact that they mean a lot to many people, nor do I condone the savage attack against the soldier.

Completely agree with you on that, especially seen as there was an EDL march past downing street around the same period. I doubt they'll ever find the perpetrators.

But then people going into places with knives and fire bombs with intent to harm innocent people seemingly doesn't? How strange.

If you looked earlier on in the thread I had already posted about these and also deplored them.