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http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57585885-504083/kaitlyn-hunt-update-fla-teen-charged-over-same-sex-underage-relationship-speaks-out/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/gay-teenager-charges-relationship-girlfriend

Heres an interesting story worthy of debate. A teenager is set to be are set to charged in Florida for the crime of making out with another teenager.

The whole story is a bit of a mish mash. The incident alleged happened whilst the older teen was 17 and the younger one 14, though apparently the parents of the younger teen waited until the older one was 18 before pressing charges as that would make the charges more serious. I’m not quite sure how that works legally but there you go. There was also a recorded conversation (the parents of the younger teen recorded her phone conversations, which is a whole level of creepiness in its own right in my opinion) indicating that sexual contact may have occurred.

The aspect that seems to have attracted the attention however is that both teenagers are girls. This has brought allot of gay rights campaigners out of the woodwork who are, rightly or wrongly, claiming that the prosecution is motivated by homophobia. I’ve no idea if Florida would prosecute in a similar situation involving a boy and a girl so I’ve I can’t say if this true or not.

The whole story is a massive mess, but the way this has been dealt with by the authorities strikes me as utterly wrongheaded.

Firstly the sexual orientation of the teens in question is a massive red herring. The law should applied equally regardless of sexual orientation. This should be dealt with in the same was as if the two teens has been opposites. In that respect that gay rights campaigners are being unhelpful even though their hearts are in the right place.

I think the real question is should we be prosecuting teenagers for their own mutual sexual experimentation under laws that are designed there to protect them from predatory adults?

Personally I think we shouldn’t in general, though I admit that the difference in maturity between the ages of 14 and 17 are pretty vast. If I had a teenage child aged 14 I’d be fairly wary of them dating someone aged 17. But even so I think I’d deal with this by talking to them and perhaps forbidding it, but it wouldn’t occur to me for a second to involve the authorities.

In Britain our age of consent is 16, though we do have prosecution guidelines that state that if the age difference is small enough then it’s not deemed to be in the public interest to pursue prosecutions. So we go after adults that abuse children, but teenagers having sex with each other isn’t something we waste our time with. If this had happened in Britain the police wouldn’t have become involved.

In my view this is the right approach. I want to protect children from predatory adults, but at the same time hormonal teenagers are going to inevitably going to experiment with each other. That’s just a fact of life. Whilst I don’t think it’s advisable to have penetrative sex before the age of 16 it’s insane to declares someone a criminal/sex offender for doing so. This girl is not a paedophile or dangerous.
.

The age of consent is 16 in Canada and there exist two close in age exemptions, depending on the age of the younger partner. A youth of twelve or thirteen can consent to sexual activity with an individual less than two years older than they. A fourteen or fifteen year-old can consent to sexual

activity with a partner who is less than five years older than they. Although LGBT community has criticized the age of consent for anal sex being 18 when vaginal is 16 and really it should 16 as well.

I wouldn't be so quick to press the homophobia button. There have been plenty of cases of hereosexual relationships being prosecuted at the same ages. Genarlow Wilson springs to mind as a particularly egregious example of this.

That case let to a spate of "Romeo & Juliet laws" designed to address this sort of thing, but they're all at the state level so, you know, some here some there.

Considering the ages involved were 18 and 14, I don't think this actually has anything to do with gay/straight/bi. An 18 year old boy having sex with an 14 year old girl would be in the same position.

I find the title of this misleading and loaded. You could just as easily also call it adult charged for having a relationship with minor, which wouldn't be a stretch because it is true. I can't help but feel this is also partly the 18 year olds parents fault for not really teaching her that at 18 you CAN NOT keep screwing around with teenagers, as it leads to problems. I wouldn't want my 14 year old dating an 18 year old, and if I had an 18 year old and I found out they wanted to or were dating a 14 year old we would have a serious talk about why that is an incredibly bad idea, both legally and otherwise.

 Ahtman wrote:
Considering the ages involved were 18 and 14, I don't think this actually has anything to do with gay/straight/bi. An 18 year old boy having sex with an 14 year old girl would be in the same position.

I find the title of this misleading and loaded. You could just as easily also call it adult charged for having a relationship with minor, which wouldn't be a stretch because it is true. I can't help but feel this is also partly the 18 year olds parents fault for not really teaching her that at 18 you CAN NOT keep screwing around with teenagers, as it leads to problems. I wouldn't want my 14 year old dating an 18 year old, and if I had an 18 year old and I found out they wanted to or were dating a 14 year old we would have a serious talk about why that is an incredibly bad idea, both legally and otherwise.

I see your point and agree that what the older teen did was wrong. I’m just not sure that criminalizing them is an appropriate response.

Also whilst the older teen might be an adult now, they where only 17 when the main incident occured.

Well, that is one 14 year old girl who will never trust their parents ever again. I hope her parents think this is worth losing their daughter over.

 LuciusAR wrote:
Also whilst the older teen might be an adult now, they where only 17 when the main incident occured.

Not sure where you get that when both articles say 18 and 14.

BBC

The two had a consenting relationship that began soon after Hunt turned 18, and Hunt Smith said she assumed the younger girl's parents knew that. The younger girl was 14 when the relationship began, and is now 15.

ABC

The two had a consenting relationship that began soon after Kaitlyn Hunt turned 18, and Hunt Smith said she assumed the younger girl's parents knew that.

In both cases she was 18 when the scissoring began.



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 SilverMK2 wrote:
Well, that is one 14 year old girl who will never trust their parents ever again. I hope her parents think this is worse losing their daughter over.

My god, what evil people, giving a gak about their minor dating an adult. Instead of being parents, they should have just tried to be her friend. How will they ever live with themselves?


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 LuciusAR wrote:
I’m just not sure that criminalizing them is an appropriate response.

Sex with a minor has been a crime for quite some time and is nothing new. I'm not calling for jail time or anything, but she done goofed, and like all the 18 year old boys that got dinged for dinging 14 year old girls, there will be some fallout.

I think the whole Sex Offender Registry needs to be revisited, as it seems that far to often situations like this end up screwing over a person far more than anything else. It is far to broad, and seems far to damning.

I don't see this as a gay rights issue.

I also don't approve of relationships and/or sex. For anyone. Ever.

We are wargamers so we are safe.

 Ahtman wrote:

 LuciusAR wrote:
Also whilst the older teen might be an adult now, they where only 17 when the main incident occured.

Not sure where you get that when both articles say 18 and 14.

BBC

The two had a consenting relationship that began soon after Hunt turned 18, and Hunt Smith said she assumed the younger girl's parents knew that. The younger girl was 14 when the relationship began, and is now 15.

ABC

The two had a consenting relationship that began soon after Kaitlyn Hunt turned 18, and Hunt Smith said she assumed the younger girl's parents knew that.

In both cases she was 18 when the scissoring began.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Well, that is one 14 year old girl who will never trust their parents ever again. I hope her parents think this is worse losing their daughter over.

My god, what evil people, giving a gak about their minor dating an adult. Instead of being parents, they should have just tried to be her friend. How will they ever live with themselves?

I dont disagree that parents should look out for qnd protect their children but there are right and wrong ways of going about it.

Clearly i dont know the ins and outa of the case here but i cant imagine that any child will be very happy with their parents recording their private conversations etc to use in a court of law to get someone they may well love into poyentiallu serious troublr. Not to mention all the stress it could create in the childs life outside the direct sphere of this case.

Again, lokking out for and protecting your child is good. Doing so in a way that may well cause your child to hate you is quite another. Hell, for all i know the girl is happy with what is going on and the parents will be up for parents of the year (though noy for whichever year they let their child have relationships with "significantly" older children, obviouslu ).

I cany imagine that is the case though.

I have a solution.
Get a job you bums!

 Frazzled wrote:
I have a solution.
Get a job you bums!

NEVER!

This is a part of the fall down of the law in it's part in defending children.

When I worked in CP, I kept and maintained the schedule 1 offenders list for the district. There were truly despicable criminals there, guilty of committing grotesque crimes, but there were others there that should never have been on that list (you stay on it for 70 years...), one guy in particular, always stood out for me, he'd been out drinking in the 'drinking street' of my home town and been attacked by another guy, who he beat down. The other guy was out drunk underage and was actually 16, the guy found guilty of 'assaulting a minor' was 18 and so found himself placed on that list and his entire future destroyed (any potential employer will see 'schedule 1' and come to a rapid and inaccurate conclusion.

So there he was, on the register, alongside actual paedophiles and child beaters. The law is sometimes a giant jerk.

It's also why I'm really angry with the media and law in the UK atm, going after celebrities for ridiculously minor things in the wake of the Saville scandal, as though charging a guy for pinching a girl's arse in the 70s will somehow cover their shame for facilitating a major predator for years. The John Peel accusation is a prime example of this sort of crass idiocy.

18 and 14? Yeah, hello statutory.

The way i see it is that if the younger girl was happy with the relationship and was not being abused then this is a stupid thing being done by homophobe parents. I know someone whom was bi and whilst dating someone the partners parents and siblings found out the partner was homosexual. They didnt like it and drove a wedge between the 2 persons and broke them up. Its a sad thing as there is nothing wrong with being bisexual or homosexual, its just some people think there is.

 Frazzled wrote:
I have a solution.
Get a job you bums!

Is he looking at our bums?

Call the police say I!

To the topic at hand, charge the older one. It is a clear breaking of the law if proved.

I suspect the titillation of it being a lesbian relationship may cloud the issue for some, but if it were two males then I suspect that many would see this as a whole other creepy story.

 LuciusAR wrote:
In my view this is the right approach. I want to protect children from predatory adults, but at the same time hormonal teenagers are going to inevitably going to experiment with each other. That’s just a fact of life. Whilst I don’t think it’s advisable to have penetrative sex before the age of 16 it’s insane to declares someone a criminal/sex offender for doing so. This girl is not a paedophile or dangerous.

This reads very much like a cut and dried case of sexual conduct with a minor, any references to them being teenagers does muddy the water. In Florida you are considered an adult when you turn 18, and the age of consent is also 18. This is clearly an adult that is having a relationship with a minor, so the law is protecting a minor from the sexual desires of an adult.

In a lot of jurisdictions where two teenagers are involved in sexual congress, and both are minors, there will often not be a prosecution because it isn't in the public interest. However, when one of those teenagers is a legal adult having sex with a minor then it is treated the same as any other adult committing the same crime.

I think that claims of homophobia are a red herring in this instance, and unless their is actual evidence that homophobia is a motivating factor then I believe that the campaigners should have chosen their battles with more care.

those criticising the girl... she was under 18 before all this, these two likely met in highschool...

all it takes is someone young for a freshman meeting someone old for a senior in high school, and there you go.

not even close to worth wrecking anyones life over, which is exactly what a stat rape charge will do to this girl.


again, a lot of hullabaloo about nothing, what AWFUL parents that poor girl has.

two people under 18 have sex, next day one turns 18, suddenly they are a rapist?


I think not.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The way i see it is that if the younger girl was happy with the relationship and was not being abused then this is a stupid thing being done by homophobe parents. I know someone whom was bi and whilst dating someone the partners parents and siblings found out the partner was homosexual. They didnt like it and drove a wedge between the 2 persons and broke them up. Its a sad thing as there is nothing wrong with being bisexual or homosexual, its just some people think there is.

The courts are full of cases like this with straight people. This is just a stupid attempt at gaining support by playing the homophobia card.

 easysauce wrote:
those criticising the girl... she was under 18 before all this, these two likely met in highschool...

all it takes is someone young for a freshman meeting someone old for a senior in high school, and there you go.

not even close to worth wrecking anyones life over, which is exactly what a stat rape charge will do to this girl.

The news coverage is not clear on what age the relationship started - we have 2 sources each that say the sexual relationship started before one partner turned 18, and 2 that say it started after one turned 18.

 easysauce wrote:
again, a lot of hullabaloo about nothing, what AWFUL parents that poor girl has.

two people under 18 have sex, next day one turns 18, suddenly they are a rapist?

I think not.

The law disagrees with you. Once you turn 18 you are no longer a minor. You are an adult, and society will treat you like one.

So wait, because that arbitrary number 18 sex suddenly becomes rape regardless of any consent?

Awesome, I'm a rapist!

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
The news coverage is not clear on what age the relationship started - we have 2 sources each that say the sexual relationship started before one partner turned 18, and 2 that say it started after one turned 18.

What are the other two sources? The only two in the thread are in OP and both list the relationship as starting after the older girl turned 18. I have yet to find one that said it started before that.

 Ahtman wrote:
What are the other two sources? The only two in the thread are in OP and both list the relationship as starting after the older girl turned 18. I have yet to find one that said it started before that.

I thought that the 2 in the OP said that the sexual relationship started when one partner was 17. If I'm wrong though I will stand corrected


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Soladrin wrote:
So wait, because that arbitrary number 18 sex suddenly becomes rape regardless of any consent?

Awesome, I'm a rapist!

In many jurisdictions minors are legally incapable of giving their consent, so saying that they consented is a non-issue. It seems common ground in Anglo-American jurisprudence. It may vary where you are though.

 Soladrin wrote:
So wait, because that arbitrary number 18 sex suddenly becomes rape regardless of any consent?

Well, no, as even in OP's there are age bands that keep it from being so, such as 17-18, or other factors, but pretty much everywhere an eighteen year old and a fourteen year old is going to be problematic. She also isn't being charged with rape either, since statutory rape isn't really the name of any crime, and is usually just used to describe sex between an adult and a minor. A fourteen year old is generally not considered mature enough (and with good reason, they aren't) to make an informed decision on their sexuality, and are easy prey for older humans that are more savvy, and thus aren't capable of giving informed, considered consent.

And the number for just about anything is going to be arbitrary in legal matters as it has to be drawn somewhere. You could make it 16 or 20, and it still would be arbitrary.

 Soladrin wrote:
So wait, because that arbitrary number 18 sex suddenly becomes rape regardless of any consent?

Awesome, I'm a rapist!

Same here technically. I had sex with my gf senior year of high school, she was 2 months younger than me. I had just turned 18, she was still 17... This happened with most of my friends as well...


Edit: Actually it does seem that it's coming out that there might be some homophobia involved... Parents tried to get Miss Hunt expelled from school, school denies the request as long as the girls have no contact. Parents then petition the school district weeks before Miss Hunt is set to graduate from school, school district complies with the request and removes her from school. Though there does seem to be nothing that I can confirm on the age of the the older girl being under 18 when the relationship started. Huffpost says that Miss Hunt was over 18... So I'm adding it here as another source.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/19/kaitlyn-hunt-florida-teen-felony-same-sex_n_3302713.html

except for drinking, you are not an adult, so 18 isnt actually adulthood in the states, 21 is since thats when you are granted full adult rights.


the law depends on where you are, here they would be fine as they are covered under "romeo+juliet" type laws due to how close their ages are.


I am under the impression that most states also have these kind of laws so that two minors dont get screwed when one of them is 18 a couple months before the other

they were in highschool together for petes sake, if that is "technically" illegal in the particular state of florida, it shouldnt be... they are both teenagers for petes sake...

18 is not some magic age where you are suddenly act mature and wize.

so many highschool sweet hearts, many of whom are still togehter, started off dating 3-4 years apart in high school in a similar situation, and its not rape (here), and its not rape in florida (morally at least, technically the law could say any sex is rape, doesnt make it truely wrong)

 Alfndrate wrote:
Same here technically. I had sex with my gf senior year of high school, she was 2 months younger than me. I had just turned 18, she was still 17... This happened with most of my friends as well...

Actually no, technically, you wouldn't fall under this because your ages were close enough together, as even OP pointed out often exist. Look up Romeo and Juliet laws if you want to know more. There is a huge difference between 17 & 18, and 14 & 18.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
except for drinking, you are not an adult, so 18 isnt actually adulthood in the states

Wow that is incredibly wrong. The drinking age isn't the determining factor of legal adulthood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Though there does seem to be nothing that I can confirm on the age of the the older girl being under 18 when the relationship started. Huffpost says that Miss Hunt was over 18...

You just said you can't confirm that she was 18, then added a third confirmation that she was 18. Hunt is the 18 year old that was engaged in sexual activity with a 14 year old.

 easysauce wrote:
except for drinking, you are not an adult, so 18 isnt actually adulthood in the states, 21 is since thats when you are granted full adult rights.

And if you read the links I posted earlier in Florida you are an adult at 18;
http://www.floridabar.org/tfb/TFBConsum.nsf/0/34557641d4c2f7c885256b2f006c5753!OpenDocument&Click=

When Do You Become An Adult In Florida? In Florida, for most purposes, you become a legal adult on your 18th birthday. See generally § 1.01(13), Fla. Stat. This is often referred to as the age of majority. (For exceptions, please see “Drinking Laws.”).

Why Is It Important To Know Your Legal Rights And Responsibilities When You Become An Adult? When you are 18, you have adult rights including the right to vote (§ 97.041, Fla. Stat.), to make contracts, to sue on your own behalf, to make a will (§ 732.501, Fla. Stat.), to get medical treatment without your parent’s consent (§ 743.064, Fla. Stat.), and to live independently from your parent’s control (Chapter 985, Fla. Stat.). . .
What Are Some Of These “New” Adult Responsibilities? If you break the law, you will be tried as an adult and can be sentenced to an adult prison. Unless a court orders otherwise, your parents are not required to support you, so you may have to support yourself. In addition, because you can make binding agreements with others (called contracts), you can also be sued. People over 18 may be called to jury duty. Males must register for the selective service. See generally § 743.07, Fla. Stat.

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/statutory-rape-the-age-of-consent.html

Florida - The age of consent in Florida is 18. It is illegal for anyone over the age of 24 to have sex with anyone under the age of 18, unless they are married.

 easysauce wrote:
they were in highschool together for petes sake, if that is "technically" illegal in the particular state of florida, it shouldnt be... they are both teenagers for petes sake...

18 is not some magic age where you are suddenly act mature and wize.

so many highschool sweet hearts, many of whom are still togehter, started off dating 3-4 years apart in high school in a similar situation, and its not rape (here), and its not rape in florida (morally at least, technically the law could say any sex is rape, doesnt make it truely wrong)

No one is saying that you're magically all grown up at 18. But it is the age were you are legally an adult. Saying that they are teenagers blurs this distinction. The older partner was an adult when at least some of the sexual activity took place, while her partner was a minor and several years her junior (therefore likely to be outside any "Romeo & Juliet" provision).

 Alfndrate wrote:
Same here technically. I had sex with my gf senior year of high school, she was 2 months younger than me. I had just turned 18, she was still 17... This happened with most of my friends as well...

Except with such a small age gap it is considered not in the public interest to prosecute. The age gap in the case in Florida is somewhat different

 Ahtman wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Same here technically. I had sex with my gf senior year of high school, she was 2 months younger than me. I had just turned 18, she was still 17... This happened with most of my friends as well...

Actually no, technically, you wouldn't fall under this because your ages were close enough together, as even OP pointed out often exist. Look up Romeo and Juliet laws if you want to know more. There is a huge difference between 17 & 18, and 14 & 18.


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 easysauce wrote:
except for drinking, you are not an adult, so 18 isnt actually adulthood in the states

Wow that is incredibly wrong. The drinking age isn't the determining factor of legal adulthood.

While I agree that there is a huge difference between 17 and 14 when compared to an 18yr old, but the State of Ohio doesn't agree with you. According to the Ohio Revised Code, a minor is considered anyone under the age of 18. Though [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#Ohio] also says that the age of consent in Ohio is 16, but I have heard conflicting stories. Technically if the parents wished to press charges they could have considering the girl was still under their care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Though there does seem to be nothing that I can confirm on the age of the the older girl being under 18 when the relationship started. Huffpost says that Miss Hunt was over 18...

You just said you can't confirm that she was 18, then added a third confirmation that she was 18. Hunt is the 18 year old that was engaged in sexual activity with a 14 year old.

You no read good. I said that I could not find anything to confirm that Miss Hunt was under 18 when the relationship started, then said the older girl (Miss Hunt) was over 18 according to the Huffington Post. Someone earlier in the thread was talking about whether or not the girl was under 18 or over 18. The OP said 17, but the two links provided don't say anything about her being under 18 from what I read.

Well I suppose part of the problem is that it varies state to state. Where there isn't confusion between states though and that they all agree on is that 18 and 14 is going to get you charged.


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 Alfndrate wrote:
You no read good.

Or you no write good, so your point is muddled.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The OP said 17, but the two links provided don't say anything about her being under 18 from what I read.

That is because they both explicitly state she was 18 at the time.